Pure or Fist
Comments
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Hhlolz - Harshlands wrote: »Alot to learn people, alot to learn.
BM kinda have a skill that adds fire damage, and trust me, it adds a LOT of damage.
Just have to be smart to use it w/o having it consume any sparks, well ofc not gonna explain that on forums because i enjoy how there isnt any reasonable BM on Harshlands server.
That skill taks 1.6 seconds to use. In that amount of time, a fist BM who can perma spark would have attacked with 6 attacks, which would probably outweigh any benifit the skill grants. Furthurmore, it uses 2 sparks, which I doubt there is actually a way around. Besides, if we have those kind of resources to throw around, HF is the better move to use with them.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Actually, now that I've actually gone back and run some numbers, it's more complicated than I initially thought. It actually appears as though it IS worth it to HF if and only if you can reach 5 aps and have Demon HF, assuming no alternate chi source. I apologize for leaping to conclusions. The relevant math is in the quote that follows.A "hit" worth of damage is the average damage one triple-sparked fist hit does. Based on my previous calculation, an unsparked hit does roughly 42% of the damage of a sparked hit. This assumes 5 aps sparked, 3.33 aps unsparked, and near-perfect reflexes and timing. I also had to assume that HF's effect is applied about halfway through the casting process, and therefore that you can get at most 8 seconds of HFed fist attacks in.
The first column of numbers is time, second is chi.
0 399 Triple Spark
3 099 Spark finishes casting
7.2 204 21 hits worth of damage
9.2 004 HF finishes casting
17.2 204 HF effect ends. 101 hits worth of damage
18.0 224 Triple Spark ends. 105 hits worth of damage
22.8 304 Enough chi to triple spark again, 111.7 hits worth of damage
25.8 004 Triple Spark finishes casting
40.8 379 Triple Spark ends
42.0 399 Full chi, completing one cycle, 188.4 hits worth of damage
Now, that's about 4.49 hits of damage per second, plus a bit for HF damage. A demon-spark-only permaspark cycle is only 4.17 hits of damage per second.
I believe the next interval step down is 2.86 aps unsparked, 4 aps sparked, but I'm not certain of my rounding there. That gives the following:
0 399 Triple Spark
3 099 Spark finishes casting
8.25 204 21 hits worth of damage
10.25 004 HF finishes casting
18.00 159 Triple Spark ends. 83 hits worth of damage
18.25 164 HF effect ends. 83.42 hits worth of damage.
28.05 304 Enough chi to triple spark again, 95.18 hits worth of damage.
34.70 399 Cycle ends with full chi. 103.16 hits worth of damage total
So, that gives 2.97+ hits of damage per second, as opposed to 3.33 hits of damage per second for a demon-spark-only permaspark cycle. However, the DPS of the segment up to the point where you can first demon spark is about 3.39+. That means that if you're starting with full chi, and have no alternate chi source, it may be worth it to Demon HF your first Demon Spark, but you don't have any surplus chi to maintain a spark-HF cycle thereafter.
Now, I know my numbers contain more than a few estimates and roundoff errors, but I believe the result is still valid. As far as I can tell, HF is only worth using for a solo Demon Fist BM if they can reach 5 attacks per second sparked and have Demon HF, unless they have an alternate source of chi.0 -
Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »BMs don't have a skill that adds elemental damage. Any other source of elemental damage that a BM can get can also be obtained by archers.
Actually, BM's can get 85% weapon damage fire attack bonus (100% for sage, 135% demon). If you know how to play a bm you can get the fire bonus without wasting the 2 sparks. The only requirement is to have the 2 sparks.
Stop comparing archer to bm. DD wise with -interval fist > bow for archers. Pve and pvp wise demon (even sage) bm > archer for dding.
Constant 135% weapon fire damage, 75% damage from mastery, 25% crit. Constant 10k damage with 5 attack speed AND the 50% chance to have 100% crit for the first 5 seconds of each triple spark is beyond OP.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Actually, BM's can get 85% weapon damage fire attack bonus (100% for sage, 135% demon). If you know how to play a bm you can get the fire bonus without wasting the 2 sparks. The only requirement is to have the 2 sparks.
Stop comparing archer to bm. DD wise with -interval fist > bow for archers. Pve and pvp wise demon (even sage) bm > archer for dding.
Constant 135% weapon fire damage, 75% damage from mastery, 25% crit. Constant 10k damage with 5 attack speed AND the 50% chance to have 100% crit for the first 5 seconds of each triple spark is beyond OP.
We can't get constant 135% fire damage, while weapon swap will allow us to keep sparks without dealing the skill damage, it still sends it to cooldown and costs the normal amount of mana. Though we can do that plus demon GS for 50% chance of auto-crit and still demon spark.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Ignore the 15k hp I have, 7x molders refine nicely.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »We can't get constant 135% fire damage, while weapon swap will allow us to keep sparks without dealing the skill damage, it still sends it to cooldown and costs the normal amount of mana. Though we can do that plus demon GS for 50% chance of auto-crit and still demon spark.
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4628/20100423235400.png0 -
Right, I forgot about the various extra effects you can get by swapping through weapons to interrupt. I was only thinking in terms of "normal" usage.Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Actually, BM's can get 85% weapon damage fire attack bonus (100% for sage, 135% demon). If you know how to play a bm you can get the fire bonus without wasting the 2 sparks. The only requirement is to have the 2 sparks.
Stop comparing archer to bm. DD wise with -interval fist > bow for archers. Pve and pvp wise demon (even sage) bm > archer for dding.
Constant 135% weapon fire damage, 75% damage from mastery, 25% crit. Constant 10k damage with 5 attack speed AND the 50% chance to have 100% crit for the first 5 seconds of each triple spark is beyond OP.
As for the comparisons... I was bored and in class, so I couldn't actually play the game. I can make forums look sufficiently like class though to get away with it.
As a side note, what's the HP debuff % on Deicides?0 -
decide is -10% hp so keep on using STA first
I don't really get what people are arguing about here ._.
Fist BM DPS>Fist Archer DPS>Bow Archer DPS
To get 5.0 APS a BM would need either pan gus creator, love up and down, or g15 nirvana pants.
Rank iv chest makes it much easier for archers to get to 5.0 $$ wise.
Most archer probably have 117ish str for warsoul helmet its not that huge of a sacrifice to be able to wear Gorenox/Decides.
Randomly:Fire Apo does stack w/ Blazing arrow but the 20 second demon version buff overrides the apo.
Punching things is pretty fun when you are bored b:victory0 -
that skill is like 30 sec cooldown but i wonder if anyone tried to stack that skill or blazing arrow with spark genie skill... if that works0
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that skill is like 30 sec cooldown but i wonder if anyone tried to stack that skill or blazing arrow with spark genie skill... if that works
Spark is only good with a high dex genie. All bm's should have a str genie so it's usually better to get tangling mire. Dex genies are for mage/people who want stun remove.0 -
but it works, right?Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Spark is only good with a high dex genie. All bm's should have a str genie so it's usually better to get tangling mire. Dex genies are for mage/people who want stun remove.
even i have a main genie str based but doesnt stop me for having 3 genies depends of what i want to do0 -
but it works, right?
even i have a main genie str based but doesnt stop me for having 3 genies depends of what i want to do
absolutely here let me go meditate while you get out of combat mode and charge energey for BR oh and the caster in line behind me will let you throw on your TE geni as well no really shall i stand still or move around to make it look nice for the fancy combos?Gifs are hard to make work here0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »Ignore the 15k hp I have, 7x molders refine nicely.
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4628/20100423235400.png
Whoops, guess swapping back to fist would make it not shadowed.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Whoops, guess swapping back to fist would make it not shadowed.
b:surrender got bored got cleric buffs been playing with cast/cancle and if you do it fast enough it does not send the skill to CD problem is DBB glitches for me so i can start channeling axe/fist/axe and it stil casts though it shows the weapon changes mid channel...have to really let it stall on the swaped to weapon
curse you glitchy game for trying to stop me from exploiting you >.>Gifs are hard to make work here0 -
I rather stick to pure DEX b:spit, I die too much on archer already, don't want to make it worse b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks for Flauschkatze for siggy b:cool
VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
HA > LA > AR... GG
HA + VIT = win b:bye0 -
...Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »absolutely here let me go meditate while you get out of combat mode and charge energey for BR oh and the caster in line behind me will let you throw on your TE geni as well no really shall i stand still or move around to make it look nice for the fancy combos?
i mean separate jobs like pve/pvp. thats for your input0 -
Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »b:surrender got bored got cleric buffs been playing with cast/cancle and if you do it fast enough it does not send the skill to CD problem is DBB glitches for me so i can start channeling axe/fist/axe and it stil casts though it shows the weapon changes mid channel...have to really let it stall on the swaped to weapon
curse you glitchy game for trying to stop me from exploiting you >.>
Treat it like you would the after-cast cancel technique we use, just substitute the weapon swap in place of the 2nd skill. Haven't failed yet using it, but also don't really use it in play. DBB would be useful if double ganking a barb I suppose, but for the most part only one I see using often would be Glacial Spike once I get demon version. Constant 50% chance to auto-crit per stun used seems awfully nice to me
Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
fists ftw.......0
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two things i havnt seen covered in here: you asume the archer has to be a demon celestial. with all possible interval gear, a heaven celestial archer can reach 5 aps, a sage bm can not. (note this because sage archer fire dmg buff is a tad better unless you fight in the first 20 seconds.)
an advantage of a fist demon archer is the fact you can usethis fist wich gives you a bit more dex, and regenerates your hp (with 5 aps, it would proc awfully often, and a bm CANT hit 5 aps with that fist, whereas a demon archer can)
someone compared a 300 str 200 dex bm with a 150 str 350 dex archer. the crit % difference would be a lot more.
also, the op fish melee people can permaspark daggers (with interval and without it. balance ftw)
for another interesting note, i believe that, if you really want to, you can get an archer to demon spark 4 times in a row (with full speed gear, you'd a tiny bit faster tha a fist bm without interval) this probably doesnt beat fists in physical dmg, but it would make a barb rage.0 -
so how does the list go now?
assasin>fist archer>fist BM b:puzzled
and is this^ for pve or pvp?PS......I'm half-joking b:mischievous0 -
You cannot simply say a fist bm is **** compared to a fist archer, they are just different and the fist portion of the archer is only for when you cannot kite the enemy.brownflamer wrote: »so how does the list go now?
assasin>fist archer>fist BM b:puzzled
and is this^ for pve or pvp?
Why? Because straight up, the fist bm would in head to head battle with a fist archer... Because the fist bm has the mastery, heavy armor, and stuns(to the point of stunlock if the bm is both axe and fist).
As far as pve it would be hard to say, I would suppose fist bms would have the slight upperhand as a result of them having their mastery, but it would be a close one... Either way both would be spewing ungodly amounts of dps.0 -
brownflamer wrote: »so how does the list go now?
assasin>fist archer>fist BM b:puzzled
and is this^ for pve or pvp?
Raw dps potential wise, I'm pretty sure its:
Assassin (Demon dagger) > Fist BM (demon) > Fist Archer (demon) > Fist Assassin (demon) > Fist Archer (sage) > Fist assassin (sage) > Fist BM (sage) > Assassin (Sage Dagger) > Archer (Demon bow) > Archer (Sage Bow)
I know fist assassins havn't been talked about, but fists are faster than daggers, and DPH wise don't seem to be much less (tt100 fists are like tt100 daggers with -150 phys attack and -.15 interval) So if we're throwing assassins into the "who out dps's who" equation, I think it looks something like this. Mind you, I havn't done many calculations with assassins and daggers to compare them (pwcalc doesn't support them yet), nor could I find any daggers while skimming through pwdatabase that have -.1 interval on them. So the only way you could hit 5 attacks per second with daggers would require you to be demon, assume assassins get the (perhaps differently named) archer rank 8 chest and wear gear like this:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=604d8f4ddf0a271a
((Pretend thats an assassin weiding some awesome -.05 dagger, and not an archer weilding a -.05 magic sword. Also pretend the gear is refined, and gemed and them stats are acutally balanced. I was only going for the attack/second here))
...this is probably going to open up some crazy debate isn't it?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »Raw dps potential wise, I'm pretty sure its:
Assassin (Demon dagger) > Fist BM (demon) > Fist Archer (demon) > Fist Assassin (demon) > Fist Archer (sage) > Fist assassin (sage) > Fist BM (sage) > Assassin (Sage Dagger) > Archer (Demon bow) > Archer (Sage Bow)
I know fist assassins havn't been talked about, but fists are faster than daggers, and DPH wise don't seem to be much less (tt100 fists are like tt100 daggers with -150 phys attack and -.15 interval) So if we're throwing assassins into the "who out dps's who" equation, I think it looks something like this. Mind you, I havn't done many calculations with assassins and daggers to compare them (pwcalc doesn't support them yet), nor could I find any daggers while skimming through pwdatabase that have -.1 interval on them. So the only way you could hit 5 attacks per second with daggers would require you to be demon, assume assassins get the (perhaps differently named) archer rank 8 chest and wear gear like this:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=604d8f4ddf0a271a
((Pretend thats an assassin weiding some awesome -.05 dagger, and not an archer weilding a -.05 magic sword. Also pretend the gear is refined, and gemed and them stats are acutally balanced. I was only going for the attack/second here))
...this is probably going to open up some crazy debate isn't it?
WOW assasins would be higher than BMs for DPS potential b:surprised
BTW would a fist BM have the advantage over an assasin @ pvp?
And yeah...it prolly is gonna open up some debate
.....Who are squads going to take with them...a fist BM or an assasin? PS......I'm half-joking b:mischievous0 -
brownflamer wrote: »WOW assasins would be higher than BMs for DPS potential b:surprised
BTW would a fist BM have the advantage over an assasin @ pvp?
And yeah...it prolly is gonna open up some debate .....Who are squads going to take with them...a fist BM or an assasin?
Yes they do, I'm pretty sure, when they take out a second mortgage on their house.
This is just raw damage output. Don't forget, assassins can't pull out axes and go all hax like a BM can, and a BM can't disappear like a wuss. b:chuckle Neither of them can pull out a bow and barrage either, which I'm pretty sure outdps's both classes in an aoe sense. Every class still has their use.
Also, unless I directly state otherwise, everything I say is PvE based, and doesn't necessarily apply (or not apply) to PvP.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »On the other hand, it's much, much easier to restat a bit of dex into str, or even just use lower-level fists, than it is to reroll as a BM all the way to 89.
Also, Fist Mastery is 60% of weapon damage at level 10. Blazing arrow is 40% at level 10. 20% of weapon damage on fists is a minuscule difference, especially when you spend most of your time triple sparked anyway. Now consider that it's much easier to get level 11 Blazing Arrow than it is to get level 11 fist mastery, and the difference narrows even further.
Yes, BMs at endgame, with good gear, are much better fist users than archers. However, when you aren't looking at TT99/Nirvana gear, that extra bit of interval makes a difference.
why is there even talks of mastery. any bm will easily have 100+ more str then any archer (even fist build). that alone will kick any fire arrow in the crotch... even sage fire arrow.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »why is there even talks of mastery. any bm will easily have 100+ more str then any archer (even fist build). that alone will kick any fire arrow in the crotch... even sage fire arrow.
A BM with 100+ more str than me though is on somekind of roids, or is a higher level with much better gear. b:chuckle
Or, am I not concidered an archer anymore because I don't fit the mold of pure dex? b:sad[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »A BM with 100+ more str than me though is on somekind of roids, or is a higher level with much better gear. b:chuckle
Or, am I not concidered an archer anymore because I don't fit the mold of pure dex? b:sad
My bm will have over 400 str. I don't consider you an archer if you don't have your level * 3 dex.0 -
Devoted - Lost City wrote: »My bm will have over 400 str. I don't consider you an archer if you don't have your level * 3 dex.
I'm an archer then.
However, will you have sufficient dexterity to weild lunar claws and maintain 400+ str without massivly out gearing me and/or being 7-8 levels higher than me?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »I'm an archer then.
However, will you have sufficient dexterity to weild lunar claws and maintain 400+ str without massivly out gearing me and/or being 7-8 levels higher than me?
398 str, 200 dex i think, level 100 obviously..
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Devoted - Lost City wrote: »398 str, 200 dex i think, level 100 obviously..
At level 100, I'm not quite sure what my str will be. 250 at the very least. There is a chance I could be pushing 300, I havn't quite figured it out yet. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo0 -
Archers are the only class that can acquire a - interval top through reputation. combined with the TT99 gold wrists and decide claws, they can reach a nasty quick attack rate. if they are demon, they can ALMOST maintain a constant triple demon spark. thats probably higher dps than any bow can get you. however, the chances of your average archer getting all three of those gears is slim. :P
edit: assasins might be able to get a - interval reputation top as well, im not sure...
double edit: assassins can get a - interval top through reputationReane-archer-82
HeavensRage-blademaster-65
HeavenSorrow-venomancer-74
Abby_G-assassin-570
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