Weapon Refinement Change (Atk/Sec)
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Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »They ARE scaled to attack speed, almost. While faster weapons do edge out a little bit ahead of slower ones, the difference is alot more slight then you keep posting. a +10 fist recieves alot LESS added dmg per attack then a +10 Axe.
However you also forget to take into account that Skill spamming benefits greater from slower harder hitting weapons. Since the refining IS more and the base dmg itself IS more, and skills arent effected by weapon speed, Axes recieve greater benefits to skills then fists do.
so on auto, faster weapons edge ahead, on skills slower heavier weapons edge ahead. These 2 are mostly balanced.
What people have been trying to tell you all throughout this thread is the reason fists are knocking the **** out of your damage is due to how broken the current -Interval system is, which does benefit faster weapons TREMENDOUSLY greater then slower ones.
All of you can keep saying about skills this skills that and all this other stuff until you're blue in the face. The fact is I want DPS from weapon refining the same which has nothing to do with anything other then a weapon it's attack speed and it's refining rate.
If we both spend 70m on a lunar robe should you get a lower interval then me? I'll get the -.05 you get -.04. From what you're saying that's perfectly acceptable even though we both pay the same. Does that sound fair to you?BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »All of you can keep saying about skills this skills that and all this other stuff until you're blue in the face. The fact is I want DPS from weapon refining the same which has nothing to do with anything other then a weapon it's attack speed and it's refining rate.
If we both spend 70m on a lunar robe should you get a lower interval then me? I'll get the -.05 you get -.04. From what you're saying that's perfectly acceptable even though we both pay the same. Does that sound fair to you?
Barbs deal their damage by spamming skills, BMs deal theirs by auto attacking, how is this hard to comprehend? Slower weapons deal much higher skill damage than faster weapons. You "want" axes to deal the same damage as fists when both are auto attacking, only problem is your demands are ****, and no one cares what you want.
The refines on my Nirvana claws don't increase my skill damage as much as the refines on your Axes increase your skill damage, even though we both pay the same, does that sound fair to you!? (hey look I can make stupid arguments that almost sound logical too).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. - T. S. Eliot0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »The fact is I want DPS from weapon refining
You want axes to have the same DPS as fists?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
you realize that by increasing the refinement rate on heavier weapons, bms get that benefit too right?
it's not only barbs that use skill spam with axe/hammers, IJS. i have no idea why bms are here arguing as if a barb with higher hitting axes would be the death of bms everywhere. if anything i expected the caster classes to have something to say about this suggestion.
"wtf, you have zerk on your damn axes already, now you want them to hit harder?"Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »you realize that by increasing the refinement rate on heavier weapons, bms get that benefit too right?
it's not only barbs that use skill spam with axe/hammers, IJS
Ofcourse it is, GXs are only grade 11 b:surrender so **** refines there, and the only Axes worth attempting to PK with are those with zerk. So you can make like 20 100 gold lunar/oht axes, and hope for zerk + good stats...(lol) and have a new grade 13 axe to work with, slightly better refines.
Then finally you can go for advanced zerk g15 nirvana axes b:surrender assuming someone can afford to buy eough rapture chests for those, and then refine them, I doubt they're feeling underpowered enough to be crying about imbalanced weapon refines.
TL:DR We need zerk axes that are easier to get than g15 nirvana, yet better than GXs. b:cry Till then axes are pretty useless for PK dmg (still nice for stuns and HF).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. - T. S. Eliot0 -
Motoko - Raging Tide wrote: »Barbs deal their damage by spamming skills, BMs deal theirs by auto attacking, how is this hard to comprehend? Slower weapons deal much higher skill damage than faster weapons. You "want" axes to deal the same damage as fists when both are auto attacking, only problem is your demands are ****, and no one cares what you want.
The refines on my Nirvana claws don't increase my skill damage as much as the refines on your Axes increase your skill damage, even though we both pay the same, does that sound fair to you!? (hey look I can make stupid arguments that almost sound logical too).
I respected everyone's opinion and didn't call anyone names, which extend to everyone else in this thread. If you want to just name call or flame find another thread please.
Onto your point, I have 3 skills that do % of weapon damage 2 of which are human form that don't get used when tanking and sunder doesn't often get used in PvE for tanking a single mob.
Weapon damage is the basic foundation to skills and other damages (also heals), if the are not in balance logically the rest of the calculations using them are therefor not in balance.Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »You want axes to have the same DPS as fists?
There is no reason other classes shouldn't get equal return spending the same amount on refining as any other class.Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »you realize that by increasing the refinement rate on heavier weapons, bms get that benefit too right?
it's not only barbs that use skill spam with axe/hammers, IJS
then again, auto attacking with axes yield higher chance to deal double damage if it has berserk...perhaps that's why % DPS increase from refinement bonus is slightly less than that of fists. all assuming no -interval gear, of course.
The balance to that skill is obviously a % loss to HP. The default base atk range is lower on those so that's already taken into account. But refining bonuses from those default values are still unbalanced and heavily favor DPS users.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »All of you can keep saying about skills this skills that and all this other stuff until you're blue in the face. The fact is I want DPS from weapon refining the same which has nothing to do with anything other then a weapon it's attack speed and it's refining rate.
If we both spend 70m on a lunar robe should you get a lower interval then me? I'll get the -.05 you get -.04. From what you're saying that's perfectly acceptable even though we both pay the same. Does that sound fair to you?
When you have slower weapons and a lower attack speed, you don't auto-attack. You skill spam. Chill of the deep is a very good example of this as no smart assassin auto-attacks with it on UNLESS they're trying to lower their DPS.
Since skills tend to take weapon attack into account (as long as you aren't an archer
), what you're asking for would mean that skill damage, which is unaffected by auto-attack rate, would be made to go trough the roof, while someone using fists would actually have to spend more than you to get to your DPS with skill spam with their DPS from auto-attacks.
That's right... skill spam can allow for DPS too! How do you think psychics work with their fast casting skills? They're the DPS magic class!
If you and I both spend 70m on a weapon and both use a skill that deals base damage +200% weapon damage +5000, but are using different weapon types, do you deserve to do double or more the damage I deal before even taking into account crits, debuffs, etc? From what you're saying, that's perfectly acceptable even though we both paid the same. Does that sound fair to you?
Edit: I can understand the base of what you want. However that only seems to be balanced on the surface. Once you go take a closer look at things, you realize all it does is create a brand new set of balancing issues0 -
When you have slower weapons and a lower attack speed, you don't auto-attack. You skill spam. Chill of the deep is a very good example of this as no smart assassin auto-attacks with it on UNLESS they're trying to lower their DPS.
Since skills tend to take weapon attack into account (as long as you aren't an archer), what you're asking for would mean that skill damage, which is unaffected by auto-attacks, would be made to go trough the roof, while someone using fists would actually have to spend more than you to get to your DPS with skill spam with their DPS from auto-attacks.
That's right... skill spam can allow for DPS too! How do you think psychics work with their fast casting skills? They're the DPS magic class!
If you and I both spend 70m on a weapon and both use a skill that deals base damage +200% weapon damage +5000, but are using different weapon types, do you deserve to do double or more the damage I deal before even taking into account crits, debuffs, etc? From what you're saying, that's perfectly acceptable even though we both paid the same. Does that sound fair to you?
Edit: I can understand the base of what you want. However that only seems to be balanced on the surface. Once you go take a closer look at things, you realize all it does is create a brand new set of balancing issues
If you bother to look at my post on % differences on DPS you would come to find to balancing, say the lunar axes, we are talking about:
Default:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 556-615
DPS: 879.45
+10:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 1024-1083
DPS: 1548.69
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 58.77%
Dragonhunt, Lunar Axes, +10 refine gives +624 (Grade 13)
Default:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 646-1508
DPS: 1251.64
+10:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 1270-2132
DPS: 1769.56
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 41.38%
for +0 to +10 DPS to = 58.77% (same as fists) you need high end on axes to be 2394.
2394 - 2132 = 262 more atk.
All of you saying 262 atk for 200% skills (532 more damage) makes me unbearable i'm speechless.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »If you bother to look at my post on % differences on DPS you would come to find to balancing, say the lunar axes, we are talking about:
Default:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 556-615
DPS: 879.45
+10:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 1024-1083
DPS: 1548.69
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 58.77%
Dragonhunt, Lunar Axes, +10 refine gives +624 (Grade 13)
Default:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 646-1508
DPS: 1251.64
+10:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 1270-2132
DPS: 1769.56
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 41.38%
for +0 to +10 DPS to = 58.77% (same as fists) you need high end on axes to be 2394.
2394 - 2132 = 262 more atk.
All of you saying 262 atk for 200% skills (532 more damage) makes me unbearable i'm speechless.
Zerk, Zerk crit, rings, level, +atk levels all contribute to the damage difference in %WD. Maybe not Zerk directly, but they are not available on fists.0 -
Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »Zerk, Zerk crit, rings, level, +atk levels all contribute to the damage difference in %WD. Maybe not Zerk directly, but they are not available on fists.
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14868BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »There are zerk fists..
TT90 gold and... N15?
edit: while it is embarrassing and evident I forgot about those specific weapons, my original idea was to convey that your projected 5xx damage can actually translate to a lot more through means mentioned in my previous post. Slow weapons focus on DPH and not DPS. Asking for the same DPS increase by refines based on attack speed would cause problems mentioned and not limited to by truekossy.0 -
Only 90 gold. g15 Nirvana has revenge +5% hp and + dmg.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. - T. S. Eliot0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »The OP may or may not be right, but you're just being childish.
It's kind of childish to randomly bold works and add foul ****ing language while acting like an immature idiot. You're just brilliantNow as for weapons, the suggestion that barbs go with claws is **** since the OP was complaining that weapons are not balanced -- what kind of advice is that? That's like someone complaining wizards are underpowered, and you suggesting to reroll. How the **** is that solving "balance", all it's solving is little kiddos who want to "win" and think that as long as you win, it's "balanced".
Someone complaing that mages are underpowered? lol Suggesting a Barb who is complaining about fists to use them because complaining on an internet forum isn't going to change anything. PWE doesn't even read these forums, nor will the GMs take any thread here seriously and unless it's a very popular suggestion in the suggestion forum or something that they're being flooded with tickets.If you think BMs are worth **** endgame without fists, doesn't that mean that the other BM weapon paths are underpowered? That's the QUESTION of balance, not "BMs need this overpowered -interval to be competitive" because that's you ADMITTING they are underpowered, for goodness' sake. While we discuss whether this should be changed it's obvious we ASSUME the devs listen, even though they 90% probably wouldn't.
Obviously, you haven't played the game for long because you would know that axes have their uses in PvE and PvP do have their valid uses at end-game but are largely gimped.
Please make my DPS with axes similar to fists/claws and I will stop using them. Simple as that. Let me AoE 20k crits to every player in a 10m radius, and then everyone will complain that axes will be overpower.I mean seriously take a good look at yourself and ask yourself: if I know I am overpowered, but I win and like it, would I call it imbalanced?
If the answer is no, go back to kindergarten.
LOLUMAD? You play a wizard, you are overpowered and I'm sure you will like it, Will you call it imbalanced? I sure hope soTraz - Dreamweaver wrote: »I don't care about a single other skill, piece of gear, -int, -chan, I just want the same DPS % increase that Fist users get since i'm pay the same to refine my poleaxe (along with all other classes and their weapons), that is all b:bye
Finally, what I wanted to hear. YOU are a barb, you are not meant to be a DD. At all. I agree the game has become kind of broken for end-game barbs, reducing their roles to nothing more than cata pullers and buffers for everything else.
You should be asking for an increase in threat generation so that you may hold and keep aggro from a fist/claw BM, which is something I've been mentioning for a few weeks now.
You, as a axe user, will never see the DPS increase that a mage, archer, bm or assassin will get from refinement and -interval gear..... unless you go with a high DPS weapon.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
aaa correction...since axes are faster than ranged weapons, a bm with max -interval wielding axes can probably out DD an archer with max -interval wielding bowsElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »aaa correction...since axes are faster than ranged weapons, a bm with max -interval wielding axes can probably out DD an archer with max -interval wielding bows
Never. A pure STR based BM will still not have the base damage that an archer with an equally refined weapon, and the archer will have 2x the crit rate as well.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
dual axes base speed have -0.3 interval over bows tho.
the max speed an archer can hit is 1.05/s with nirvana and 8jun
the fastest an axe bm can hit is 1.18/s with nirvana. if you have zerk on the axes, you'd technically have a higher chance to deal double damage. i think it will come down to bms sparking more often and getting more chi during sparks which will eventually beat an archer.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »dual axes base speed have -0.3 interval over bows tho.
the max speed an archer can hit is 1.05/s with nirvana and 8jun
the fastest an axe bm can hit is 1.18/s with nirvana. if you have zerk on the axes, you'd technically have a higher chance to deal double damage. i think it will come down to bms sparking more often and getting more chi during sparks which will eventually beat an archer.
My max patk with +10 GX with a pure str build pushes what, 10k? I know I never had mine over 9.4k. An archer with +10 Lunar bow has what 14-16k?
It would take a lot for a BM to come close to an archer in DPS with axes.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
uh no...this Asterelle, note she has restatted strength to a bare minimum to have as much dex as possible too:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=4789d986e1d89ea0
maybe if that bow had 2 sockets and those were garnet gems you can touch upon 15k max. GX has inferior refinement compared to CV anywayElena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Michael when did I say anything about mages being underpowered apart from that just being an example? It was only an example for goodness' sake. (and for sure, you find that more often that others though, that's why I picked it).
You said so yourself axes are largely gimped. That's cool and all, doesn't give you the idea that they are actually... underpowered? What about swords? How many end-game BMs use swords and are on par with the ones with fists?
Of course, you can say, that the game is broken, and that only fists make them competitive. No comment there you see. That's not the point. I mean, the whole point of this thread, is to discuss this "brokeness", not to say "they will never fix it" because we already ASSUME that they do fix, by READING this thread.
If you don't like threads that assume devs will make a difference, even though we know they probably won't (but heck, assumptions are assumptions) why are you posting in this thread?
All weapons should be equal. By "equal" I mean more like having the same scaling proportinately and privileges, not being the same. (i.e not identical!). All BM paths and barb axes should be useful. And I mean, by scaling them appropiately (depending on atk speed also). That's balance.
having something "gimped" is NOT balance. See what I mean?0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »uh no...this Asterelle, note she has restatted strength to a bare minimum to have as much dex as possible too:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=4789d986e1d89ea0
maybe if that bow had 2 sockets and those were garnet gems you can touch upon 15k max. GX has inferior refinement compared to CV anyway
My patk with +10 GX 2 G11's is 5.8-8.7k. Before I restat to dex it was about 9.3-9.4k max. There is no way I would be able to compete with an archer for DPS or aggro. I know, I've actually been there and tried?
Also, every archer should be pure dex build with min str for armor of their level and restat whatever they can whenever they can to dex.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »You said so yourself axes are largely gimped. That's cool and all, doesn't give you the idea that they are actually... underpowered? What about swords? How many end-game BMs use swords and are on par with the ones with fists?
Swords are pretty good for 1v1 dps, but don't replace fists. I don't use swords, was pretty much a pure axe build till I hit 7x when I started to branch out a little. Axes aren't underpowered until you reach end-game because there is no real alternative to 90 gold axes except for Nirvana. If you want Nirvana axes, you pretty much need to buy them as no faction will actually give you 250 crystals for axes when they're much better off given to a mage or archer.
Which kind of makes the point moot, as anyone who throws massive amounts of cash into the game is going to be OP anyway.Of course, you can say, that the game is broken, and that only fists make them competitive. No comment there you see. That's not the point. I mean, the whole point of this thread, is to discuss this "brokeness", not to say "they will never fix it" because we already ASSUME that they do fix, by READING this thread.
I really don't agree that fist bm's are completely overpowered. I agree that with all the event gear they are far more powerful than they used to be, but a similarly geared veno or mage are just as much of a threat. If anything I see the event gear as putting the BM into a DD class instead of a support/tanking class. This has changed game balance, but I do not feel it has completely upset it. Rank 8 archer or mage are still more powerful than all but the most cash shopped fist/claw builds.If you don't like threads that assume devs will make a difference, even though we know they probably won't (but heck, assumptions are assumptions) why are you posting in this thread?
All weapons should be equal. By "equal" I mean more like having the same scaling proportinately and privileges, not being the same. (i.e not identical!). All BM paths and barb axes should be useful. And I mean, by scaling them appropiately (depending on atk speed also). That's balance.
having something "gimped" is NOT balance. See what I mean?
There is a reason why axes don't scale the same as fists/claws, because they are given the most AoE skills... those AoE skills mean little in end-game PvP or PvE, which is why they are gimped... not nerfed or unbalanced. Their use at end-game is just limited and giving them higher refines or more base damage will completely throw off game balance, except to those end game users who don't have any alternative to a lower level weapon.
As to why I post here? It's not because I think the devs will somehow 'get the point', it's just for the only real reason... that I can.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »Finally, what I wanted to hear. YOU are a barb, you are not meant to be a DD. At all. I agree the game has become kind of broken for end-game barbs, reducing their roles to nothing more than cata pullers and buffers for everything else.
You should be asking for an increase in threat generation so that you may hold and keep aggro from a fist/claw BM, which is something I've been mentioning for a few weeks now.
You, as a axe user, will never see the DPS increase that a mage, archer, bm or assassin will get from refinement and -interval gear..... unless you go with a high DPS weapon.
That's what i've been saying the whole time, maybe not as clear cut but that's the root of my point. b:chuckle
Many people think i'm talking about overall damage and I should do 15k hits 1a/s verse your 5k 3a/s, which isn't anything near what I'm suggesting; i'm saying weapons should have refinement that is proportional. Obviously an archer's crits, a BMs -int, and a wiz skills will still put them at a better DPS then me OVERALL, but i'm not talking about overall i'm talking about weapon only.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I really don't agree that fist bm's are completely overpowered. I agree that with all the event gear they are far more powerful than they used to be, but a similarly geared veno or mage are just as much of a threat. If anything I see the event gear as putting the BM into a DD class instead of a support/tanking class. This has changed game balance, but I do not feel it has completely upset it. Rank 8 archer or mage are still more powerful than all but the most cash shopped fist/claw builds.
There is a reason why axes don't scale the same as fists/claws, because they are given the most AoE skills... those AoE skills mean little in end-game PvP or PvE, which is why they are gimped... not nerfed or unbalanced. Their use at end-game is just limited and giving them higher refines or more base damage will completely throw off game balance, except to those end game users who don't have any alternative to a lower level weapon.
As to why I post here? It's not because I think the devs will somehow 'get the point', it's just for the only real reason... that I can.
I'd say BMs have the MOST POTENTIAL to become overpowered, but all of them aren't. They just seem to be the ones that cause the most trouble over any other class i've seen. I just don't feel that class is balanced when you look across all of them.
I want an example of how they are throwing off game balance if (lunar axes) are given another 2xx attack when refined to +10 (to make them % refined equal).
PS We all post here because we can b:pleasedBladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »That's what i've been saying the whole time, maybe not as clear cut but that's the root of my point. b:chuckle
Many people think i'm talking about overall damage and I should do 15k hits 1a/s verse your 5k 3a/s, which isn't anything near what I'm suggesting; i'm saying weapons should have refinement that is proportional. Obviously an archer's crits, a BMs -int, and a wiz skills will still put them at a better DPS then me OVERALL, but i'm not talking about overall i'm talking about weapon only.
I don't think barbs need any dps/damage adjustment, they just need to be able to keep aggro from all these cash shop classes. Armageddon and Onslaught are great skills for dealing a lot of damage, but DPS isn't something barbs should have and don't by design.I'd say BMs have the MOST POTENTIAL to become overpowered, but all of them aren't. They just seem to be the ones that cause the most trouble over any other class i've seen. I just don't feel that class is balanced when you look across all of them.
I want an example of how they are throwing off game balance if (lunar axes) are given another 2xx attack when refined to +10 (to make them % refined equal).
PS We all post here because we can b:pleased
BMs with fist/claws have a range of 2.0. That limited range is why they are given the insane DPS they are. If they were to have a range of 6m+ they would be truly overpowered but aren't for that reason, IMO. Sure it may make them king of PvE, but in PvP the limited range really hurts. Any other class has the chance to sleep/stun/seal/occult/whatever before we even get in range to do anything...I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I don't think barbs need any dps/damage adjustment, they just need to be able to keep aggro from all these cash shop classes. Armageddon and Onslaught are great skills for dealing a lot of damage, but DPS isn't something barbs should have and don't by design.
BMs with fist/claws have a range of 2.0. That limited range is why they are given the insane DPS they are. If they were to have a range of 6m+ they would be truly overpowered but aren't for that reason, IMO. Sure it may make them king of PvE, but in PvP the limited range really hurts. Any other class has the chance to sleep/stun/seal/occult/whatever before we even get in range to do anything...
You're getting caught up in me using DPS term; i'm saying factor DPS into refinement. We shouldn't be changed to a pure DPS build, but my core belief is this indirect factor/variable should be used in the refinement algorithm along with weapon grade and nothing more or less.
PS Onslaught for sage is blah, but the demon version is OP. Arma is obviously only good if you have a lot of HP.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0 -
to be honest gang if there was no interval BMs would be bad in pvp by now very heavy. As the wep range almost force your skill to reset very often by anyone just walking while your cast. Really good hope before to kill someone fast was = Skill + Stun + HF + 2 skils fast + Skil.
Also, BM can hardly turtle in tiger from from range attacks - and then jump up to fight when he can come closer to dds with 25-30metter range.. If these dd's today would keep incredible range advantage - and mages 100% hits - i do not see why BM's should not use interval's. Btw there are not soo many bms that can beat 4+ hits per sek, or even 3,33 which is a breaking point of high DPS - not in TW. Demon spark is in use for PvP mostly and they will cut it to 20% soon, so .. same as demon cyclon heal.Fortune favors the brave
facebook: facebook.com/WorldOfDrakons
forum: dragons-pwi.forum-motion.net0 -
they gata do something for the barbs, make them hit faster, more make them do more dmg, or increase the agro on flesh. one of those would be nice. at my lev with sins and bms going full out attack speed it is impossibe to keep agro from them. then they start blaiming the barb i just say you shouldent of demon sparked.
and dont tell me to keep agro better cuz you try keeping agro from a 95 sin with lunar dagger using demon spark and interval gear doing 30k crits every half a second. (taco
) GRAPHICS AND MOTION DESIGNER0 -
Michael, for me, if the paths/skills don't scale up equally well across endgame, it's not balanced. Mind you I'm not necessarily saying fists are overpowered. It could very well be that the other paths are underpowered instead.0
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Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Michael, for me, if the paths/skills don't scale up equally well across endgame, it's not balanced. Mind you I'm not necessarily saying fists are overpowered. It could very well be that the other paths are underpowered instead.
I don't think you really understand.... there is no real way to 'balance' everything neatly and perfectly, it's not possible, otherwise all the skills for every class would do roughly the same thing, with the same channel/cast times, the same distance, and there would be no need to even have various classes.
Axes are gimped at PvP and PvE at endgame compared to fists 1v1. Making them balanced would completely overpower axes because they have three different AoE's and an extra stun just for that weapon whereas all the other weapon paths have limited AoEs and different attack ranges... you just can't balance fists vs axes in any realistic manner without gimping one or overpowering the other.
It's like having a pickup truck, a sports car and a van and you want to 'balance' them... it's just not possible. One class of vehicle is always going to do something better than the other.
It's not some simple cut and dried matter and it's a bit funny that you might think that.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Plus the OP has never even stated their real argument, they've hinted at it in a few posts. Which is also why no argument will sway them even if you counter their posts: their reason for posting isn't addressed and they'll just find another method to use.
First they didn't understand refinement. Ok, they've learned and are addressing it. Here's the problem: they keep saying everything else is fine, but adjust the refine % times attack speed to equal every other weapon type. But they keep mentioning fists. Why? The weapon that actually benefits the most from that isn't fists, it's blade.
Blade has 1.11 APS, fists 1.43. However blade has normal melee refine rate, and fists is 72% of it. So 1.43 times .72 is less than 1.11. So in actuality, they should stop mentioning fists at all and instead complain about blades. This is according to what they have said recently, and don't forget they mentioned not minding the -interval mechanics.
Now this alone should stop the thread complaining about fists, but it won't. Why? Because they are upset with fists being able to steal aggro so easily and make their job harder/impossible. This is the actual post, and reading in the middle you can see mention of it as an aside. So let me relate a little tale to you.
2 Fist BM all weapon types of 100, barb of lvl 99 in Abbadon. One BM demon sparks to 4 APS, the other Heaven's Flames, Glacial Spikes, Tangling Mires, and an Extreme Poison is tossed on for fun. Of course, the demon sparker takes aggro with the huge amp straight damage is given. After the spike is done, who has aggro? The barb, because he actually knew his skills. He knew how to reset aggro to erase that huge aggro built by damage, he knew how to build it up from the reset. He has Alpha on his genie, and knows how to use each aggro skill at his control. He had a TT90 axe of +4, not GX. Oh, also he got aggro even while amping our damage with Devour. And when aggro swung towards us for more than a hit or two at a time, he'd reset it again.
Is it hard to tank against a fist BM fully geared up? Yep, but it doesn't matter as long as a barb with non-CS gear and low refines is able to skillfully play to take aggro. If one can do it, it just means the others need to catch up to that lvl of skill.
BMs have been able to tank since month 1. Tank is not barbs role, it is something they can do easier in some cases, some cases not. They are the best aggro managers, mass or single, they can soak lots of damage, and dish out some ridiculous numbers endgame in spikes. If a BM can out-tank them, that doesn't mean their class is broken. It says Barbarian, not Tank. Yes, most people just go with that thought process, but it doesn't make them right.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Plus the OP has never even stated their real argument, they've hinted at it in a few posts. Which is also why no argument will sway them even if you counter their posts: their reason for posting isn't addressed and they'll just find another method to use.
First they didn't understand refinement. Ok, they've learned and are addressing it. Here's the problem: they keep saying everything else is fine, but adjust the refine % times attack speed to equal every other weapon type. But they keep mentioning fists. Why? The weapon that actually benefits the most from that isn't fists, it's blade.
Blade has 1.11 APS, fists 1.43. However blade has normal melee refine rate, and fists is 72% of it. So 1.43 times .72 is less than 1.11. So in actuality, they should stop mentioning fists at all and instead complain about blades. This is according to what they have said recently, and don't forget they mentioned not minding the -interval mechanics.
Now this alone should stop the thread complaining about fists, but it won't. Why? Because they are upset with fists being able to steal aggro so easily and make their job harder/impossible. This is the actual post, and reading in the middle you can see mention of it as an aside. So let me relate a little tale to you.
2 Fist BM all weapon types of 100, barb of lvl 99 in Abbadon. One BM demon sparks to 4 APS, the other Heaven's Flames, Glacial Spikes, Tangling Mires, and an Extreme Poison is tossed on for fun. Of course, the demon sparker takes aggro with the huge amp straight damage is given. After the spike is done, who has aggro? The barb, because he actually knew his skills. He knew how to reset aggro to erase that huge aggro built by damage, he knew how to build it up from the reset. He has Alpha on his genie, and knows how to use each aggro skill at his control. He had a TT90 axe of +4, not GX. Oh, also he got aggro even while amping our damage with Devour. And when aggro swung towards us for more than a hit or two at a time, he'd reset it again.
Is it hard to tank against a fist BM fully geared up? Yep, but it doesn't matter as long as a barb with non-CS gear and low refines is able to skillfully play to take aggro. If one can do it, it just means the others need to catch up to that lvl of skill.
BMs have been able to tank since month 1. Tank is not barbs role, it is something they can do easier in some cases, some cases not. They are the best aggro managers, mass or single, they can soak lots of damage, and dish out some ridiculous numbers endgame in spikes. If a BM can out-tank them, that doesn't mean their class is broken. It says Barbarian, not Tank. Yes, most people just go with that thought process, but it doesn't make them right.
Glad you posted. Because thats what I got from the thread also. A big QQ over not being able to hold aggro against fists bm's properly built.
If this is indeed the case (which I believe it is) he should QQ over Archers too....Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I don't think you really understand.... there is no real way to 'balance' everything neatly and perfectly, it's not possible, otherwise all the skills for every class would do roughly the same thing, with the same channel/cast times, the same distance, and there would be no need to even have various classes.
Axes are gimped at PvP and PvE at endgame compared to fists 1v1. Making them balanced would completely overpower axes because they have three different AoE's and an extra stun just for that weapon whereas all the other weapon paths have limited AoEs and different attack ranges... you just can't balance fists vs axes in any realistic manner without gimping one or overpowering the other.
It's like having a pickup truck, a sports car and a van and you want to 'balance' them... it's just not possible. One class of vehicle is always going to do something better than the other.
It's not some simple cut and dried matter and it's a bit funny that you might think that.
Axes wouldn't be overpowered if refinement bonuses were equivalent.If you bother to look at my post on % differences on DPS you would come to find to balancing, say the lunar axes, we are talking about:
Default:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 556-615
DPS: 879.45
+10:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 1024-1083
DPS: 1548.69
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 58.77%
Dragonhunt, Lunar Axes, +10 refine gives +624 (Grade 13)
Default:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 646-1508
DPS: 1251.64
+10:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 1270-2132
DPS: 1769.56
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 41.38%
for +0 to +10 DPS to = 58.77% (same as fists) you need high end on axes to be 2394.
2394 - 2132 = 262 more atk.
All of you saying 262 atk for 200% skills (532 more damage) makes me unbearable i'm speechless.Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »Plus the OP has never even stated their real argument, they've hinted at it in a few posts. Which is also why no argument will sway them even if you counter their posts: their reason for posting isn't addressed and they'll just find another method to use.
First they didn't understand refinement. Ok, they've learned and are addressing it. Here's the problem: they keep saying everything else is fine, but adjust the refine % times attack speed to equal every other weapon type. But they keep mentioning fists. Why? The weapon that actually benefits the most from that isn't fists, it's blade.
Blade has 1.11 APS, fists 1.43. However blade has normal melee refine rate, and fists is 72% of it. So 1.43 times .72 is less than 1.11. So in actuality, they should stop mentioning fists at all and instead complain about blades. This is according to what they have said recently, and don't forget they mentioned not minding the -interval mechanics.
Now this alone should stop the thread complaining about fists, but it won't. Why? Because they are upset with fists being able to steal aggro so easily and make their job harder/impossible. This is the actual post, and reading in the middle you can see mention of it as an aside. So let me relate a little tale to you.
2 Fist BM all weapon types of 100, barb of lvl 99 in Abbadon. One BM demon sparks to 4 APS, the other Heaven's Flames, Glacial Spikes, Tangling Mires, and an Extreme Poison is tossed on for fun. Of course, the demon sparker takes aggro with the huge amp straight damage is given. After the spike is done, who has aggro? The barb, because he actually knew his skills. He knew how to reset aggro to erase that huge aggro built by damage, he knew how to build it up from the reset. He has Alpha on his genie, and knows how to use each aggro skill at his control. He had a TT90 axe of +4, not GX. Oh, also he got aggro even while amping our damage with Devour. And when aggro swung towards us for more than a hit or two at a time, he'd reset it again.
Is it hard to tank against a fist BM fully geared up? Yep, but it doesn't matter as long as a barb with non-CS gear and low refines is able to skillfully play to take aggro. If one can do it, it just means the others need to catch up to that lvl of skill.
BMs have been able to tank since month 1. Tank is not barbs role, it is something they can do easier in some cases, some cases not. They are the best aggro managers, mass or single, they can soak lots of damage, and dish out some ridiculous numbers endgame in spikes. If a BM can out-tank them, that doesn't mean their class is broken. It says Barbarian, not Tank. Yes, most people just go with that thought process, but it doesn't make them right.
So I never stated my "real" argument? Please make sure you take a very hard look maybe read twice.
1. It doesn't say a thing about aggro holding, 2. I don't care about -int as I say in my opening statment which also inclues -chan, crit, skills, and 3. there have been plenty of side topics in this thread about keeping aggro but as below states that's not what my original post talks about.Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »WEAPON damage should be balanced when refining between different classes' weapons. Skills you throw on top, -int, or -chan can give you the variation of DPS/mass crits/etc all you want.
Cube, Lunar Fists, +10 refine gives +468 (Grade 13)
Default:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 556-615
DPS: 879.45
+10:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical Attack 1024-1083
DPS: 1548.69
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 58.77%
Dragonhunt, Lunar Axes, +10 refine gives +624 (Grade 13)
Default:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 646-1508
DPS: 1251.64
+10:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 1270-2132
DPS: 1769.56
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 41.38%
Buddha's Peace, TT90 Gold Fists, +10 gives +334 (Grade 11)
Default:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical attack 501-554
DPS: 792.22
+10:
Attack Speed 1.43
Physical attack 835-888
DPS: 1269.84
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 60.29%
Calloused Lionheart, TT90 Gold Axes, +10 gives +446 (Grade 11)
Default:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 582-1358
DPS: 1127.14
+10:
Attack Speed 0.83
Physical attack 1028-1804
DPS: 1497.32
+0 to +10 DPS increase: 32.84%
For putting the same amount of money as a Fist user i'd like the same % increase they get in weapon damage.BladedZero - Sanctuary
"Also I don't think actually playing through the game helps your skill either."
-And we wonder why this game has gone to hell b:cute0
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