Dragon Bane: A lvl 79 Skill that reduces your damage output?
Taraleth - Lost City
Posts: 17 Arc User
So looking at the lvl 79 BM skills, I am not entirely sure about the worth of Dragon Bane. Ecatomb says that it reduces attack power by 50% but increases critical by 25%. Now, I may not be understanding what attack power refers to exactly, but I assume it is your base physical damage. So you do 50% less damage but crit 25% more. Honestly, this seems detrimental to me.
Assuming a base damage of 100,
+1% crit means that +1/100 attacks will do double damage, thus +1% crit maps to an average increase (given a base damage of 100) of 1 dmg over 100 attacks.
100 attacks at 100 dmg each = 10000 dmg + 100 dmg from a crit = 10100 dmg divided by 100 attacks = 101 dmg average over 100 attacks.
A 1% increase in attack damage is equally an increase to 101 damage over 100 attacks.
Now, it would seem that this skill, when applied to a base damage of 100 per attack will result in the following:
100 divided by 2 (50%) = 50 damage per attack at 25% crit rate = either (depending on which is calculated first, although I assume this is damage) 75 damage over 100 attacks (assuming crit is calculated first using the original 100 damage) or 62.5 damage (if the crit is applied to the reduced damage).
So this skill reduces your damage by 25% (in the best scenario)? That seems like a very poor skill to me, unless "attack power" has a different meaning than your normal base damage. Keep in mind that these are all averages, and that since the dmg reduction and crit rate increase are both % they will have the same result (25% decreased dmg) on higher amounts of dmg (1000 dmg reduced to 750 dmg).
Any thoughts?
Assuming a base damage of 100,
+1% crit means that +1/100 attacks will do double damage, thus +1% crit maps to an average increase (given a base damage of 100) of 1 dmg over 100 attacks.
100 attacks at 100 dmg each = 10000 dmg + 100 dmg from a crit = 10100 dmg divided by 100 attacks = 101 dmg average over 100 attacks.
A 1% increase in attack damage is equally an increase to 101 damage over 100 attacks.
Now, it would seem that this skill, when applied to a base damage of 100 per attack will result in the following:
100 divided by 2 (50%) = 50 damage per attack at 25% crit rate = either (depending on which is calculated first, although I assume this is damage) 75 damage over 100 attacks (assuming crit is calculated first using the original 100 damage) or 62.5 damage (if the crit is applied to the reduced damage).
So this skill reduces your damage by 25% (in the best scenario)? That seems like a very poor skill to me, unless "attack power" has a different meaning than your normal base damage. Keep in mind that these are all averages, and that since the dmg reduction and crit rate increase are both % they will have the same result (25% decreased dmg) on higher amounts of dmg (1000 dmg reduced to 750 dmg).
Any thoughts?
Post edited by Taraleth - Lost City on
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Comments
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You should be able to cancel out the debuff with a spark eruption or get purified by cleric.0
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Yes, one can purify the damage reduction effect with Spark, Purify from a Cleric, etc.
Pretty much it is used before Sparking, then you will have increased damage with +25% Critical, which just ****.0 -
Yes, but that means you need additional support of some kind, whether using another skill or another player. I think that, assuming I am right, this skill actually makes one weaker rather than stronger by itself.
Why not simply make it 25% increased crit rate?
I guess I am wondering about the logic behind the skill itself rather than the pragmatic usage in the game.0 -
Because other classes would QQ.0
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Lyndura - Lost City wrote: »Because other classes would QQ.
lol.
Aren't there purify pots that could do the same work as a cleric?0 -
yep, so now you can all QQ knowing that b:laugh0
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Voices - Lost City wrote: »lol.
Aren't there purify pots that could do the same work as a cleric?
Yeah, potions work too.
However, for PvP one might want to save the potions for other situations and just use this skill with Spark (specially Hell Spark). It depends on the situation.0 -
Yes, the skill by itself will make you do less dmg (on ave) over the 30 seconds then you normally do. Also, the higher your crit is to begin with the less of an increase the skill will actually have on your over all dmg out put during that time. And also remember to factor in the fact that we have weapon mastery's so we actually normally do 160% of weapon dmg and the skill decreases our dmg to 110% of weapon dmg (with max mastery ofc).
Overall I think the skill sucks unless you purify the effect, imo. If you're sparking to override the dmg redux then you're not getting very much more dmg then you would with just simply sparking and you could do a 2 spark move instead of dragons bane+spark.0 -
KhaosShadow - Sanctuary wrote: »Yes, the skill by itself will make you do less dmg (on ave) over the 30 seconds then you normally do. Also, the higher your crit is to begin with the less of an increase the skill will actually have on your over all dmg out put during that time. And also remember to factor in the fact that we have weapon mastery's so we actually normally do 160% of weapon dmg and the skill decreases our dmg to 110% of weapon dmg (with max mastery ofc).
Overall I think the skill sucks unless you purify the effect, imo. If you're sparking to override the dmg redux then you're not getting very much more dmg then you would with just simply sparking and you could do a 2 spark move instead of dragons bane+spark.
well for Pvp I tend to agree but HH / Bosses a triple spark + dragon bane would do alot more dmg out put simply because the thing you're hitting is tanking the dmg.b:cute
Sinnerz Lost City PvP.0 -
KhaosShadow - Sanctuary wrote: »Yes, the skill by itself will make you do less dmg (on ave) over the 30 seconds then you normally do. Also, the higher your crit is to begin with the less of an increase the skill will actually have on your over all dmg out put during that time. And also remember to factor in the fact that we have weapon mastery's so we actually normally do 160% of weapon dmg and the skill decreases our dmg to 110% of weapon dmg (with max mastery ofc).
Overall I think the skill sucks unless you purify the effect, imo. If you're sparking to override the dmg redux then you're not getting very much more dmg then you would with just simply sparking and you could do a 2 spark move instead of dragons bane+spark.
Much of the comments are incorrect due to incorrect dmg formula. Masteries deal damage independent of str, and is what heavy dex users make use of to not fall too behind in damage when crits are taken into accout.
Damage is computed off of (1 + (2*STR/3) + MAS) * (LVL + Phys Atk). This is taken from another post by FIow that has always been correct on my character. The 1 + 60 mastery would be equivalent to an extra 240 str, so until str is that high more than half of the dmg will be from those two areas; more if you use skill combos non-stop. Spark takes only phys atk from your weapon, multiplies it by appropriate amount, and adds that on. It's why 150% doesn't more than double your dmg.
Also don't forget we have genies coming out which remove debuffs, so clerics won't be needed.0 -
So im getting dragon bane on my bm and i dont really need cleric tho. i am gonna use the skill and equip the mold 70 dark flash with Holy: Has a chance to recover HP by 5%,and remove all debuffs. and then when debuff is gone i use my buddahs fist againb:shocked.
but i doubt if it will be effective all the time because the effect is random, but still i found just grinding with dark flash it at times kicked in alot per mob so it should remove the debuff early within the 30sec of effect of Dragon bane.
Thing i wanna know tho, does it add 25% to my already normal crit rate of 15% so i end up with 40%critb:dirty or does it just add a 25% of 15% crit so i have 18.75%b:surrender?
Another question tho, does demon spark remove debuffs also coz some say it does and some say its only sage spark that does.0 -
genie skills ?_?
25% more crit on a HF BR b:shocked b:bye0 -
Dragon bane isn't a straight cut of -50% damage, but a damage reduction of .5 to your damage multiple. And given 3 str per lvl, you'd be looking at 3.2 normal multiple. This gets reduced to 2.7 as long as the debuff is active, and boosts your crit chances by 25%.
Now it's even better for axers or such, because they use skill spam. So you'd get an extra amount of damage from the skill, further reducing the % of damage reduced while increasing the chance to double damage by a large margin. Also as mentioned, increases chance for genie to crit as well. DB, HF, TE, one real dead archer.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Bane > 1 normal attack > triple spark = win.
And... way to necro.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
So i got the skill and i found it pretty impressive when i get purified and attack with and without sparking.
i think the description on ecatomb is wrong aswell, because when i use it the criticals show on my screen, most crits i had was 17 in a row with-in the 30sec limit. also i found i dont really need purify with buddah's fists. my normal damage on lvl 80 mobs are 1.5k - 2k, with dragon bane i do 1.2k - 1.4k. Then when buddah's skill to increase damage kicks in im back to where i was before using skill. So the debuff on damage i think is only weapon damage in my eyes, Else i would only be doing 750-1k ish damage.
Also did a rotflesh run, i ended up tanking both the 2 bosses there when i used the skill and not getting purified, the barbs just gave up reaming.
Did little test also on that captain outside fb79, killing it with 2sparking takes about 25sec max. and killing it with dragon bane takes about 15-18sec when im purified.
Now where i really found i love the skill is aoe grinding. use it and hit 1 mob once, then HF and other aoe's. really really drop the mobs fast and its crits all over the place on almost all the hits. also where im at having Calamities is also awesome.
Cant wait for 3 spark to see this skill shine in all the glory it can give.0 -
CruiseWolf - Heavens Tear wrote: »So i got the skill and i found it pretty impressive when i get purified and attack with and without sparking.
i think the description on ecatomb is wrong aswell, because when i use it the criticals show on my screen, most crits i had was 17 in a row with-in the 30sec limit. also i found i dont really need purify with buddah's fists. my normal damage on lvl 80 mobs are 1.5k - 2k, with dragon bane i do 1.2k - 1.4k. Then when buddah's skill to increase damage kicks in im back to where i was before using skill. So the debuff on damage i think is only weapon damage in my eyes, Else i would only be doing 750-1k ish damage.
Also did a rotflesh run, i ended up tanking both the 2 bosses there when i used the skill and not getting purified, the barbs just gave up reaming.
Did little test also on that captain outside fb79, killing it with 2sparking takes about 25sec max. and killing it with dragon bane takes about 15-18sec when im purified.
Now where i really found i love the skill is aoe grinding. use it and hit 1 mob once, then HF and other aoe's. really really drop the mobs fast and its crits all over the place on almost all the hits. also where im at having Calamities is also awesome.
Cant wait for 3 spark to see this skill shine in all the glory it can give.
Read 2 posts above yours, it explains it.0 -
Seeing as ur throwing ur words again like i see on other posts, I have read your post 2 above mine. if you look really really close at my post you will see the following:
i think the description on ecatomb is wrong aswell, because when i use it the criticals show on my screen
it refers more to the effect (critical hits) showing on the screen0 -
I believe its a small translation error in the sense that the additional crit% will not show in your Character Screen....Retired
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
demon spark purifys ftwAP classes are a real butt pounding...0
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Necro FTL.0
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Bane marrow spark is beast.BM PvP Guide: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1320761
YouTube channels: youtube.com/TheDan912 and youtube.com/TheDanPWI0 -
Well, might as well build it off here than starting a new thread. I haven't gotten Dragon Bane for my new BM yet. I had it on my old BM and it was ok. But what I'm thinking is that PvE wise, that 100 chi is better off saved for demon sparking. Since I'm not near 4 APS yet, I'm thinking that's better DPS than using that 100 chi to Bane then have to wait to get 100 chi back on the next sparking cycle.
PvP wise, well, putting using up 399 chi in one combo is unwise aside, I just don't see anyone sitting there and tank it. Is using unpurified Dragon Bane beneficial since it doesn't directly cut my dmg by half? Think there's math for this here somewhere but I can't find it atm. I know some people use it unpurified to increase crit for genie and all...0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »Well, might as well build it off here than starting a new thread. I haven't gotten Dragon Bane for my new BM yet. I had it on my old BM and it was ok. But what I'm thinking is that PvE wise, that 100 chi is better off saved for demon sparking. Since I'm not near 4 APS yet, I'm thinking that's better DPS than using that 100 chi to Bane then have to wait to get 100 chi back on the next sparking cycle.
PvP wise, well, putting using up 399 chi in one combo is unwise aside, I just don't see anyone sitting there and tank it. Is using unpurified Dragon Bane beneficial since it doesn't directly cut my dmg by half? Think there's math for this here somewhere but I can't find it atm. I know some people use it unpurified to increase crit for genie and all...
Much like the barb's True Form skill, -50% weapon damage does NOT mean -50% damage. As I already posted in this thread, it is a -.5 multiple in the damage formula, that is it. And a 300 STR character will have a multiple of 3.75 when demon, 3.9 sage. So averaged out your damage will be higher. And this is before adding any damage from skills, those bonuses are unaffected by the damage reduction completely. Which is why Axe BMs not using DB are considered even more "special" than they normally are. At 79 the multiple will be lower, but still worthwhile.
EDIT: All weapon BMs typically save the spark for utility if needed as a side noteFist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
I just, finally, got Dragon Bane!
Now, I've tested this skill a couple of times and this is my conclusion:
So I used DB on a mob called "Elite Infernal Guard" which doesn't have much defense and myy max damage was about 2650 without DB and 2300 with. (I use Blades)
Like Telarith said, it's the weapon damage multiplier.
Now, if you don't want the damage reduction, you're not a Demon or Sage and you don't have a cleric nearby, get a genie skill called Faith (or Belief).
It has 10% chance per Skill level of making you immune to all debuffs for the next 5 seconds.
About the criticals: HOLY S...!0 -
This is a skill if you our a Fist user with D spark is a MUST get a purify when use if you our tanking(if you not you our about to be lol)
Ill use this as a example not brag i can hit 25k crits in eden bosses(they take mob damage) if i used bane and purify i would dit 25k crits almost every hit because i would have 39% crit rate.
So it can OWN if used right.
Side note i steal aggro from a 101 barb in eden with only a OHT -0.05 int gear and TT 80 Buddha WOOT!!!101 Blademaster(Pro/Fail 4.0 BM with 11k base HP+G16(+10))
100 Seeker(The Vortex Beast)
86 Assassin(Solo king)
76 Archer(Squishy Nuker)
72 Cleric(Horrible healer)
67 Barb(Buff baby)
61 Wizard(King Aoe)
37 Mystic(Fun project)0 -
Runemine - Dreamweaver wrote: »This is a skill if you our a Fist user with D spark is a MUST get a purify when use if you our tanking(if you not you our about to be lol)
Ill use this as a example not brag i can hit 25k crits in eden bosses(they take mob damage) if i used bane and purify i would dit 25k crits almost every hit because i would have 39% crit rate.
So it can OWN if used right.
Side note i steal aggro from a 101 barb in eden with only a OHT -0.05 int gear and TT 80 Buddha WOOT!!!
Yeah, like I said, you'll get a burst of high DPS, but if you are not close to 4 APS, you might get better DPS overall by using that 100 chi to keep sparking.0 -
Well i would use Cloud erruption with the combo to recover that chi faster so basicially not even using it it can be used many ways many combos but point is GET IT lol101 Blademaster(Pro/Fail 4.0 BM with 11k base HP+G16(+10))
100 Seeker(The Vortex Beast)
86 Assassin(Solo king)
76 Archer(Squishy Nuker)
72 Cleric(Horrible healer)
67 Barb(Buff baby)
61 Wizard(King Aoe)
37 Mystic(Fun project)0
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