LA or HA

I depends on what you plan on doing more of playing a nuking veno or werefox if nuking go AA.LA is mostly for werefox for the extra p.def.

I'm at 30 Vit at Lev 75 and that's more than enough for everything I encountered so far. Not sure if more is needed or more for convenience. So far, I planned for 40-50 Vit as a AA-only Veno. I'd like to just have enough HP to master the PVE-content, as a non-cashshopper. Go figure.

With HA this is hardly doable. LA, I have no real experience with. I have a Lv 15 LA Veno alt, but if I feel like foxing it up, my AA veno can do that too (for the lulz). IMHO, Venos are too much of a Hybrid class (Caster DD + Debuffer/Support) to bother with a Melee DD build. If you just let autoattack run, you can play a Claw BM or an Archer too, they're atleast designed for that, and you don't give up on anything.

I think the advantages of HA are being overlooked here.

I can macro heal 3-1. (in case you thought mag was lacking or something)
I can...tank a bunch of silly barbs all whacking on me with GXs. (charm **** though <sadface>)
I can....do better against archers. (compared to arcane. or light.)

Here is a small disclaimer though. I believe that I should not have gone HA simply because I am not nearly rich enough. I am mediocre at best. +5 gears and +6 weapon is not going to get it done near end game.

That said, the amount of hp that I have is not nearly enough. It is comparable to a 8x BM but with better pdef. I guess what I am saying is that in some cases I feel like I would rather be able to survive against BMs and Barbs than a wizard. This build also counters pets and archers a bit better as well.

We are not wizards. we do not have a pdef shield that makes us insane.

Again, if you are not rich the HA build is not viable endgame.

BattleFairy - Lost City wrote: »

I think the advantages of HA are being overlooked here.

I can macro heal 3-1. (in case you thought mag was lacking or something)
I can...tank a bunch of silly barbs all whacking on me with GXs. (charm **** though <sadface>)
I can....do better against archers. (compared to arcane. or light.)

but thats not a real reason you mentioned

- any 8x veno can do 3-1 since its the easiest TT ever
- not even barbs or bm's can stand barbs arma and barbs are actually not hard to kill for a good AA/LA veno
- archers that dont bother using lighting skills or w/e is their magic, how do you think they kill barbs and bm so fast?

Neyla_ - Archosaur wrote: »

I know everyone will say "both HA and LA builds are for endgame u n00b" when I'll post this thread and I know that. But I'll use one of these builds in lower lvls, not to be too much effective but for fun. I'll use both forms. But I dunno If I would be LA or HA and wear some parts of equip heavy under my lvl and some arcane or switch equips depends on situation. Is fox form damage with LA build much weaker? I'm not really rich so I couldn't buy millions of legendaries with bonuses for having HA up to lvl or 1 grade lower. I could get some -requirement 3 stars and ornament with bonuses but I would wear 2-3 grades lower HA part of equip. Would be impossible to calculate build with equip that is changing all the time? Ty for ur suggestions.

I switched to heavy in my high 60s. The +stat equipment is not necessarily expensive, but you have to spend a ton of time camping AH to find it and nab it before anyone else. Excluding legendary, most of my stat gear cost less than 100k. But yeah, all combined it comes out to several mil more in expenses compared to arcane or light, plus a few mil more for the legendary items.

Like everyone else, I don't recommend switching at low level or starting from low level. You outgrow your equipment too quickly, so you'll end up spending a lot of time searching for and acquiring stuff which you'll stop using in a few days. The lower level stuff also seems to have a lower chance of bonuses, doesn't give as much +stat, and fewer of them are listed on AH due to most people just blowing through those levels quickly. If you insist on playing as a melee fox, I would start with light simply because you don't need +stat gear. Then around level 80 I'd restat to heavy, though 90 would be better.

As for damage, you shouldn't notice much impact on your casting damage. The difference between arcane and light/heavy casting becomes bigger with level, so at low level is when the difference is smallest. A decent mag build will have 4 mag/level while heavy/light will have 3 mag/level. The attack modifier for mag is (1 + mag/100). So the difference in their m.atk is going to be roughly:

Level 10: 8% more for arcane
Level 20: 13% more
Level 30: 16% more
Level 40: 18% more
Level 50: 20% more
Level 60: 21.4% more
Level 70: 22.6% more
Level 80: 23.5% more
Level 90: 24.3% more
Level 100: 25.0% more

Do bear in mind spell damage is usually matk + weapon attack + fixed constant, so the difference in spell damage is not as large as the difference in m.atk.

Same for melee damage between light and heavy - at low level the difference is smallest. The attack modifier for str is (1 + str/150). Since light is 1 str per level and heavy is 2.5 str per level, the p.atk difference is going to be roughly:

Level 10: 9% more for heavy
Level 20: 18% more
Level 30: 25% more
Level 40: 32% more
Level 50: 38% more
Level 60: 43% more
Level 70: 48% more
Level 80: 52% more
Level 90: 56% more
Level 100: 60% more

Same disclaimer as for magic. Fox skill damage is p.atk + constant, so the difference at low and mid levels between light and heavy melee damage is not as great as above. However around 190-200 str, the heavy's regular melee attacks start doing more DPS than spamming fox skills. So at high levels, the heavy build becomes a lot easier and less mana-intensive to play effectively.

kenlee wrote: »

- any 8x veno can do 3-1 since its the easiest TT ever

Actually, the limit seems to be around 83. I had a friend open it for me at 82. Even as a heavy, I didn't have much problem keeping up with heals. But the problem was if the boss' magic + melee attack both ended up near max, even if my herc had been fully healed just before, it would kill my herc before I could get another heal off. I was able to kill most of the 3-1 bosses solo at that level, but died a few times because they killed my herc in between heals. (Not that I recommend it at this level - it took nearly 45 min per boss.)

Now that I'm in my 90s, I'm finding more and more than the problem isn't how much I can spam heal. It's how much damage the herc can tank in between my heals. In other words, survivability is being determined mostly by the herc's hp, which is the same for arcane and heavy. In fact, the handful of bosses we weren't able to herc tank, *I* was able to tank with a cleric healing me (when we didn't have a barb or BM), since I now have 1k more hp than my herc and almost as much pdef.

- archers that dont bother using lighting skills or w/e is their magic, how do you think they kill barbs and bm so fast?

I believe the quandary is that when an archer sees a veno, they don't know if they should attack with a physical or metal attack. The veno could be wearing heavy or arcane. Whereas with a barb or BM they always know they're wearing heavy and will be weak to metal.

"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu

BattleFairy - Lost City wrote: »

if done correctly, the pdef and mdef from HA > LA

Build that build on pwcalc.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=961e1fcd10964465
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=65e914424f839c53

Same ortaments, same tome, same rings, same weapon, same cape, same arcane sleeves, same amount of channeling (30%), and same refines and shards on everything.

The difference is 3% more physical defence and magic defense combining HA/AA > LA. And this is assuming the HA/AA is only using 1 piece of HA. (top piece)

Also, the 18% crit with the HA/AA build is still good enough to do spike damage. An extra 8% crit with LA doesnt excite me either.

Wasted points into dex; this is more correct: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=6413f8342c7f6a46

8% more crit is a lot in PvP. 18% means less then 1/5 of your attacks will crit. The LA setup = more than 1/4 of your attacks land as a crit.

Its a huge difference and its well worth a 3% decrease in defence, especially when factoring the already heavily reduced attacks (-75% I believe) you will receive from other players.

It also means the LA has more magic DPS than the HA/AA hybrid.

However, no one said a LA build must have maximum dex.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a29ed88b482d8c17

Still more crit (3%), 703 more HP while buffed. The extra 2% defence of HA/AA is inconsequential.

Also don't forget that LA can throw on AA gear at any time to greatly increase m.def, while keeping crit bonus:

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=30e607bce0772ba5

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Now that I'm in my 90s, I'm finding more and more than the problem isn't how much I can spam heal. It's how much damage the herc can tank in between my heals. In other words, survivability is being determined mostly by the herc's hp, which is the same for arcane and heavy. In fact, the handful of bosses we weren't able to herc tank, *I* was able to tank with a cleric healing me (when we didn't have a barb or BM), since I now have 1k more hp than my herc and almost as much pdef.

well for some hard bosses where i cant heal with my defensive gear the only way is to switch to channeling gear. yea there are bosses that can do a combo and kill herc but even you as heavy you will see that if you stack lots of channeling you can prevent that. if you find a perfect time to heal and right channeling you can see your pet hp always full.. sometimes im wondering if pet get damage. you need channeling gear and enough magic atk to heal boss hardest hit (not combo)

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I believe the quandary is that when an archer sees a veno, they don't know if they should attack with a physical or metal attack. The veno could be wearing heavy or arcane. Whereas with a barb or BM they always know they're wearing heavy and will be weak to metal.

well thats the advantage of fox form or fashion or range because you cant see enemies gear and for sure i would also think that all archers are light armor or something like that

its not really that its better or worse, when it comes to small percentage difference in defences it doesnt make much practicality cause its less than 1-2% damage reduced at that point, but more based on play styles. bm's have massive pdef and hp compared to archers but a good archer can still beat em... LA venos evolve in their purpose from low lvl to higher lvl. at low lvl its used for the cheap defence but at higher levels the play style changes and LA becomes more on crit based and chances. HopToIt put it well that not every player in the game is ganna have that arrangement of gear with all 4 socket immacs and lunar boots rings etc. the builds ppl make on the calculaters are based on ideal builds that rarely occur in game. personally i enjoy part LA part AA for my setup and base my char on crit rate and luck. just how i play, its what i enjoy. and make a genie that compliments or amplifies your build, chose your skills right. any build is feasable at high lvls where small differences dont have as great of an effect on overall play if the char is played properly.

cos ur on a pvp server and they on a pve server we need more pdef more hp then just for mobs 2 survive and grow also its not about winning lol its about opinions and how ppl enjoy a game sheesh

granted at low lv venomancer play mostly as pure but at 80 90 they reset and go fox

and heavy could give the better bonuses for that idk i given up on my veno at 78 will come
back if nix and herc died out but will not happen

BattleFairy - Lost City wrote: »

at some point i find that it is useless to argue with some people on this board. they are obviously never wrong and they have no room to even accept someone elses' ideas. What i dont understand is why there are not more pro LA venos if what they are saying is correct...

Well, I'm not arguing, just stating that I don't think LA is the best build for me. It was good while I was lvl 60 and 70, and it still works ok at 85, defenses are sorta low cause im still using 7x and 6x armor. (legendary). I really wanted to restat to the HA/AA build at 60, but I decided to do the LA build first, simply because it was cheaper at the time, and i didn't have good knowledge about the HA/AA build. Also I didn't have a herc then either, so obviously I was saving up my money to get one, instead of trying to find HA gears. Now that I've got my herc, i've farmed alot of the things I need for TT90, or I've sold the mats I didn't need to get the gold mats I need. And I'm taking my time with it, that way I know for certain that I'm ready to restat at lvl 90.

I do not agree with LA being a good endgame build.

I was LA until 99/100 (and couldn't wait to restat to vit arcane build). The only good thing about LA is crit and even then the theory might not happen, cause practically you might hit more or less crits so it might turn out useless or good, it's luck based (and I don't sit there and pvp all day to count my crit hits).
I do have to admit I play more mage then fox overall, besides doing all the debuff ****.
But I think the most important thing for endgame is high defenses while not letting down your own attack, as more and more and more ppl get weapons around +10. AA can pull out the highest defenses overall, since the gear magical defense is the highest and you can shard pdef into it and get higher pdef than LA or HA (depending on the shards you can afford; you have to put some vit into your build then to balance out the hp). LA venos and bad geared HA venos aren't that hard to fight 1on1(had hard times with some venos though).
I would rethink about being mix build (heavy,arcane).
In general going LA until 90 is ok, at 90 you should restat.

@ channel:
My opinion is pdef>channel. You lost 432 pdef. sounds like a waste to me.
And now ppl could argue my point how she could just refine her neck and belt and what not to +10 and get that pdef back. Then I would say alright if you have the coin it's your choice...But looking at it from my point of view and I am not a cashshopper nor am I a nolifer.


Another thing is that some of the items are really hard to get at the moment,
example: Helm of Holy punishment (ence's scar), which now is 40 perfect tokens of best luck. 200 mil for a helm?!( a cser is not guaranteed to get 1 perfect token of best luck per 50 packs....)
Another example the event tome.lol wut? That's like 100 mil (-/+) on the server I am playing and most ppl won't be able to afford it.
It really depends on what you can afford and still enjoy the game. Any of the 3 main builds can be dangerous played right.In the end it is personal preference.

Everything said above is my personal opinion and some ppl would maybe argue.
Also I didn't bring up all my thoughts, but meh don't feel like typing more...

My crit was 12% and I didn't have a single event gear item when I was LA, I also wasn't dex stated, because at the point when you need hp to survive over crit. If you die to an archer in 1 shot...there is no way you can crit him right. So hp came first.

well ppl that can afford that equipment they can also lvl a dex class like sin or archer. sins for example can have like double crit rate plus alot of atk speed and now with triple spark not even HA feel safe

ive seen HA builds on barb but no vit arcane barb. arcane is the most balanced armor for both pdef/mdef and its class specific armor imo. i have barb too but lower lvl than my veno. has HA and high HP but still doesnt work well being melee and HA, wizards just eat you alive (still venos hit alot weaker). bm's can increase their magic res and stun lock but thats another story, they also have problems with end game wizards. end game archers complain about the worst armor in game when it comes to pvp.

there is nothing more balanced than AA with decent shards/vit for both pdef/mdef and what lulu said, many times you have to survive frst to get that chance to hit back. ofc having high crits is nice but you have to survive fisrt, we have archers with +10 +12 bows on our server and thats just something that you cant ignore, same with wizards

venos have lower range than any other ranged class, pets cant be refined, some skills dont get celestial upgrade (would be nice a better heal range to avoid some aoe's). venos should be good at pve too in end game but you just see a bunch of bm's/sins or archers and what not soloing bosses that venos dont have a chance. when it comes to pvp you see a bunch of 8x/9x complaining about nix but how many 100's do you see complaining about pet...

yesterday i finally got a wing trophy lunar glade, i wanted this so much but in the end i said wth... its just a waste on veno, ill just make it -int one instead of channeling and use it on bm or sin