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    • Fixing TW to profit PW and the Players

    Posts: 289 Arc User
    edited April 2010 in General Discussion
    No this isnt a QQ thread, I have a leginament idea on how to make TW more fun, so tell me what you think and dont just go on about how one faction owns everything so that the GMs might take this as an actual suggestion and not just shake their heads. b:victory

    Anywho, I think that the best thing we could do for TW is to change the way the attack limit is done. Obviously we still need a limit on how much of a faction you can attack at once, otherwise people would just mass-glomp decent sized factions and there would be no reason to strategize anything.

    However I do think that the attacks should be changed from 3 at a time to an amount based on how much land they own...a percentage. For example 50% (a bit high, just an example) or 20% of how much land the faction owns, rounded up.

    So lets say a faction owns 8 bits of land, and you could attack 30% of what they own in one night (at the same time)...that would come out to 2.4, rounded up to 3, which would mean you could attack three peices of land at the same time.

    The main reason I think this needs to happen is that pvp is an end game goal, the main reason people play an MMO and a reason that actually makes high levels want to continue playing the game. This would bring balance to the game, but would also motivation to continue playing for (and paying for) progress in the game, instead of just hitting a high level and feeling like the game is painfull to play.

    And yeah before you say it 75 isnt that high a lv, im talking based off experiences ive gotten from much higher level people who arent in the mega faction on a particular server.
    The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

    You may pick two.
    Post edited by Zenzell - Dreamweaver on

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    • Posts: 351 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Agreed. The percentage idea is good.

      The idea is to make TW interesting for everyone, even after certain maps *cough cough* have pretty much stagnated. Stagnated maps don't make as much money off TW preparations, so I don't see why PWI wouldn't see the profit it keeping things exciting for endgame players.

      Another idea I've seen bandied around is along the same lines: making it a bit more difficult to hold onto land the more you have. One method might be random wraith attacks during the week, to a random piece of land, with an honestly difficult boss, adding a sense of danger and excitement while whichever faction is attacked rallies all their resources to defeat it.
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    • Posts: 289 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Well with the wraith thing it would be a bit cheap to do that, and tbh what boss is actually fun to fight? :\

      With percentages we would have more factions fighting for land and actually have a need to think about what you can take without pointing a cannon at yourself, as in how big can you grow without pissing people off through backstabbing and getting reduced by x%
      The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

      You may pick two.
    • Posts: 9,091 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      About that...

      You can't really 'make TW fun for everyone'. All things considered, TW is geared towards the high level or endgame players and it'll never really be fun for everyone on a mature server without severe nerfing or handicapping, and that wouldn't really be fair either.

      The percentage thing is really a bad idea. Smaller guilds with only a handful of lands can still be triple attacked which is highly unfair and leads to attacks they can't defend and crystal walks which nobody really wants.

      The NPC TWs just are too weak to provide much of a threat on the largest factions, but a sheer number of them at any one time would wreak havoc, only because it does take time to kill all the mobs in any instance. Honestly, unless a faction has 10 or more lands, I don't see NPC attacks on held land to be fair to any guild that can be triple attacked. Smaller guilds that hold only a handful of lands tend to get bum rushed... they have more TWs than the largest factions for the most part.

      It's not as if there isn't a reward for taking a land, and none of the smaller guilds wants to attempt to TW against a ruling faction, and rightly so. Forcing how many lands a faction can own, or being too unfair to a current land holder by throwing in several NPC attacks could be unfair to those that worked hard to getting those lands. But the random NPC attack against a guild during non-TW times might be a good possibility... because everyone won't be on and prepared, and it could restore a land to NPC and be ready for bidding when the next round of territory fundraising begins.

      I have yet to see any really fair suggestion that would benefit the smaller factions without being completely penalizing and being unfair to the larger ones, so I don't really know what to suggest.
      I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
    • Posts: 141 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
      I have yet to see any really fair suggestion that would benefit the smaller factions without being completely penalizing and being unfair to the larger ones, so I don't really know what to suggest.

      One way for a start would be to give a faction that gains its first land immunity from attack for the next week.

      Atm if a new fac gains lands everyone bids on it the week after (seeing it as the easiest option) and gives no New fac chance to gain a foothold.

      Edit: Could also allow non land holder access to all apoc items
    • Posts: 7,881 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      There really shouldn't be an attack limit at all. A guild doesn't deserve to hold land they are not capable of defending.

      If a bunch of small guilds coordinate a large attack then they should not be forced to fight a couple at a time. In nature a pack of lions can take down an elephant.

      As it is right now, a single guild can take over the map because alliances are entirely ineffective. Powerful guilds deserve to hold the most land but not all of it.
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    • Posts: 6,790 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      You can't really 'make TW fun for everyone'. All things considered, TW is geared towards the high level or endgame players and it'll never really be fun for everyone on a mature server without severe nerfing or handicapping, and that wouldn't really be fair either.


      This.


      Not saying that the TW system is perfect, but most of the complaining I see comes from lower levels that want to participate in TW without being killed in 5 minutes. TW is designed for endgame players, if you're still 7x and your server has been out for more than 3 months, then you most likely won't stand a chance in TW. Even on Raging Tide which has only been out for a few months, if you're not 90+ you probably won't be too useful in TW if you're in one of the three dominating factions.
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    • Posts: 9,091 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      StormChaos - Heavens Tear wrote: »
      One way for a start would be to give a faction that gains its first land immunity from attack for the next week.

      That's not a bad idea really.
      I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
    • Posts: 1,816 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      StormChaos - Heavens Tear wrote: »
      One way for a start would be to give a faction that gains its first land immunity from attack for the next week.
      Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
      That's not a bad idea really.

      It's not a bad idea, however, the faction they took it from should be immune, to the immunity. Often land grabs are done when a faction has too many fights. But often if they were to 1v1 the faction they took it from, they wouldnt stand a chance. The faction from whom the land was taken, should maybe be the only one allowed to attack it the following week.
    • Posts: 406 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      StormChaos - Heavens Tear wrote: »
      One way for a start would be to give a faction that gains its first land immunity from attack for the next week.

      I also think this would be a good idea, also making it so that all attacks are at the same time. That way it's be much harder for 1 faction to own all of the land.
    • Posts: 3,393 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »
      I also think this would be a good idea, also making it so that all attacks are at the same time. That way it's be much harder for 1 faction to own all of the land.
      As i said before. Allow 5 TW's in same time. Not just 3. And no faction will be able to own all territories. Because of 80 players restriction.
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    • Posts: 141 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      At the most basic level they could change the " kill the crystal " system (which seems a very half hearted system imo ) to capture the Flag/base type system.

      The Fac in control of the most bases at the end of the Tw time limit would own the land.

      Note: Tw time limits would have to be lowered to maybe an hour or hour and a half, would be two costly 3 hour fights 3+ nights a week

      This kind of system would also allow more than 1 Fac to attack a land at once.

      Ie: Enrage, Rad and Tao all on the same Tw map fighting over the same bases

      Would bring a more strategic, alliance based element into TW .. Rather than just " CHARGE TEH crystal "
    • Posts: 7,881 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Realistically the change that involves the least amount off change to the current system is the one most likely to be implemented.

      Increasing or removing the arbitrary value of 3 for the attack limit is an easy change and should be the option we demand.
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    • Posts: 1,816 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
      Realistically the change that involves the least amount off change to the current system is the one most likely to be implemented.

      Increasing or removing the arbitrary value of 3 for the attack limit is an easy change and should be the option we demand.

      That limit is only in play when the TW faction own less then 21 lands. Once they surpass that, if everyone actually attacks them, it can go to 4, 5, and even 6 attacks in the same time slot. If everyone didnt cower away from TW, they could easily have a faction under attack, in all 7 time slots, with 6 or 7 attacks per time slot (45 lands = 4 slots with 6 attacks, & 3 slots with 7 attacks).

      So in a sense, there is already a system in place that increases the number of attacks per time slot if they own more land, it just will always spread it out beyond 3 until the timeslots are over loaded. Utilize this.
    • Posts: 7,881 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »
      That limit is only in play when the TW faction own less then 21 lands. Once they surpass that, if everyone actually attacks them, it can go to 4, 5, and even 6 attacks in the same time slot. If everyone didnt cower away from TW, they could easily have a faction under attack, in all 7 time slots, with 6 or 7 attacks per time slot (45 lands = 4 slots with 6 attacks, & 3 slots with 7 attacks).

      So in a sense, there is already a system in place that increases the number of attacks per time slot if they own more land, it just will always spread it out beyond 3 until the timeslots are over loaded. Utilize this.

      Firstly, level 1 and 2 lands couldn't be attacked.

      You need at least 22+ attacks. With level 3 factions holding 200 that giant alliance represents a maximum force of 4400 players. With this giant force you can have at most 4 attacks at once, 320 players. This is just 7.3% of that potential. The defender can field 100% of their 200 potential against that. A builtin handicap on alliance attacks that huge is ridiculous and unrealistic.

      The design of TW is flawed. One of many flaws in a neglected game.
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    • Posts: 289 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      alright first off to the first arguement:

      Te percentages I gave are just examples, i think a realistic one would be up to the developers...i think a percentage is a better idea than say, increasing the limit from 3 to 5 because then things would be unbeleivably mindless, people would just gank anything they could, because the member cap is 200, and 200/5 is....well 40 people to defend against an attack. Hardly fair at all.

      Im not going on about how 7x cant TW, i understand that completly, but why should 1-2 factions dominate everything? There are alot more than 200 90+ out there, and to be honest after that level your two options are join the dominate faction....or quit the game. Or spend weeks getting to the next level and pretend you still enjoy the game, instead of just the people in it.

      No it shouldnt be set up so that a faction can only hold a few lands, but i mean it should at LEAST be set up to have 2-3 dominate factions so that people actually have SOME chance of seeing a TW who arent in Calamity / Nefarious etc. I respect Calamity (dont play sanctuary so dont know anything about nefarious), but you cannot honestly tell me that the idea of having 2-3 factions in a power struggle doesnt sound more appealing than whats on Sanctuary....a full map. Yeah, people can set up 3 factions and take out the main faction.....after a few years. They dont form overnight. And thats assuming people dont lead, they know what they're doing, people dont get impatient and quit/leave, and you manage to get a mass amount of players 90+, and the planets align right when hell freezes over.

      It wont happen soon, and maybe not at all.

      With a (good) % cap TW doesnt rot and die. I mean there's about 50 territories? Being able to attack 10% of what a faction owns, that's 5 attacks a night, which is more than enough to break it off a bit, then when it goes down there would be about a 20/20/20(3 factions for those not counting) lock on the TW map since you could only attack 2 peices of land at a time, and boom, you have an interesting TW system where people actually have to give a half assed effort to keep what they have instead of building themselves up to a point where they become a brick wall. I understand that low lvs cant TW, but at this point high levels cant either, at least without selling themselves out to one of a few factions or selecting from one of the 3 spots that havent been dominated by the mega faction.
      The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

      You may pick two.
    • Posts: 66 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Basically a lot of these ideas could be incorporated to work together. For example, if a single faction owns x amount of lands, lets say...twenty (20) lands. Then there is a possibility that a wraith attack can happen at anytime and as a faction owns more lands, more lands should be able to be attacked.

      For example: If X faction owns 10 lands. 3 people can attack them. If they own 20 lands, 4 people can attack them. One attack per 10 lands or so. (How many total lands are there anyways?) After x amount of lands are owned, then there they can implement wraith attacks which could work like a giant sized rebirth. Multiple waves of mobs come in to attack an object or person that has to be protected and then at the end 2 crazy powerful world bosses (say ALMOST near harpy wraith potential, but not quite. Something difficult that requires coordination and strength to beat) attack along with a few minions that they can summon.

      When a new guild enters the fray and claims their first land, give them immunity for it for a week or two except for the faction they took it from. Let them earn a bit of coin from it and make it competitive and fair. This gives smaller guilds a chance, which, in all honesty should have a chance. Factions shouldn't have to be level 3 with 200 players to compete. Now they should have it to hold 90% of the map or so..But still.

      War is by no means fair. Alliances get forged and many smaller forces come to take down larger forces all the time. That's how larger forces are kept in check. This way, the system would be challenging, almost impossible to take over a full map, but it would be far, far more rewarding and an accomplishment when done. And ten times harder to hold on to, as it should be. After all, an army can't be everywhere all the time, and lands don't protect themselves. Also, the flying should be taken from TW again or ceilings should be put on the buildings as they're not fortified enough as it is. People can fly right over walls, which makes for shorter TW's since an assault squad can just fly in over the choke points (which normally were used for defense, spamming AoE's and such on people in the choke point) which makes their point all but useless. That's just the Kin's perspective on the ideas presented. All in all, the above wouldn't take too much coding. It'd be entirely possible.
    • Posts: 289 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      That is really just....overly complicated, thats asking to basically give a mass overhaul to the TW system. Having the ability to attack the % of what they own btw is the EXACT same thing as being able to attack one for every 10 lands or so.

      Immunity is iffy for me really, mainly because there wouldnt be anything from stopping a faction from attacking itself with a puppet faction to keep themselves safe for a week while forcing expansion toward another direction.

      And I see absolutly no point of a wraith attack, anyone with a few brain cells can grind kill mobs, and why let PVE do something that could be fixed by just letting massive factions get attacked more, since they have about 50 plots of land? (10% of 50 is 5 attacks, 10% of 40 is 4 attacks, etc)
      The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

      You may pick two.
    • Posts: 227 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
      There really shouldn't be an attack limit at all. A guild doesn't deserve to hold land they are not capable of defending.

      If a bunch of small guilds coordinate a large attack then they should not be forced to fight a couple at a time. In nature a pack of lions can take down an elephant.

      As it is right now, a single guild can take over the map because alliances are entirely ineffective. Powerful guilds deserve to hold the most land but not all of it.

      I like a lot of the suggestions here, but I think Astrelle's is the best and simplest. It would be easy to implement and is self regulating. Just assign all of a guild's TWs on one night (can be random for those who are busy on certain TW nights). I don't know if there would be server issues or not, but if server capacity fills up, *only then* start moving wars to a second day.

      It irritates me how factions can have 4 attacks in a week and they still bid on another land because it probably won't fall on the same night. This idea also helps so guild members don't have to sacrifice every night of the weekend to TW.
    • Posts: 6,790 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      I don't really think the TW system is flawed.


      If a faction can't beat another faction in a 1vs1 TW, then they don't deserve to have their land. It already allows for 1vs3 TWs, what more do you need?
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    • Posts: 289 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Mainly because:

      a) Once you get so much land you cant take anything from said faction without immediatly getting attacked from all directions.

      b) Once you get so much land all the 90+ jump to your faction.

      Just sayin.
      The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

      You may pick two.
    • Posts: 6,790 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Zenzell - Dreamweaver wrote: »
      Mainly because:

      a) Once you get so much land you cant take anything from said faction without immediatly getting attacked from all directions.

      b) Once you get so much land all the 90+ jump to your faction.

      Just sayin.
      You'd be surprised how many 90+ will go to a faction just to "Fight the red beast"

      And if you can't defend your land from another faction in a 1vs1, you don't deserve to keep it.



      If you cannot beat a faction in a 1vs1 TW, you don't deserve to have their land. It seems other guilds just want to be given the lands that other guilds have. The idea is that you fight for the land. If your best 80 cannot beat the other factions best 80 in TW, then you shouldn't own their land. If you ask me it's a bit much to even allow 1vs3 TWs.
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    • Posts: 289 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
      You'd be surprised how many 90+ will go to a faction just to "Fight the red beast"

      Actually I would be suprised, because 90% of the 90+ would rather join a faction that can help them instead of spending all their time being the one or two 90+ in a faction...and then 8% or so of those people get tired of doing 140billion boss runs and just stop playing all together.

      So you're telling me that basically if a faction gets a monopoly on the map and kills off a game feature by collecting all the highest level players in a server by abusing a one way TW system that gives a bigger helping hand to the most land by giving a faction exclusive items that only people who hold that land can have etc, giving them a permanent advantage over other factions should be considered fair? I mean lets get real here, do you honestly think that there are enough people who care enough to spend 5-7 years of their life trying to convince a group of 90+ to inconvenience themselves by staying in some faction instead of jumping ship to the bigger faction?
      The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

      You may pick two.
    • Posts: 6,790 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      You make it sound like there's only one of these "bigger factions" out there.

      Infact, with the exception or Raging Tide and Archosaur, I'm pretty sure every server has multiple factions with a minimum requirement of 85+. Last I checked a level 3 faction can only hold 200 people and do you really beleive that on servers that have been out for over a year there's only 200 people that are 90+? 90+ can be done in a matter of weeks. Hell Raging Tide has been out for only 3 months and we already have 100+. I'm 84 and I don't cash shop at all.
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    • Posts: 289 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Have you looked at a TW map? You see that mass blotch on it? That is the 'bigger faction'. They have access to exclusive items only people holding that land can get, can cover their charm and pot costs for everyone there for the most part, have all the high levels on the server so can do any bosses you need in maybe a day, and people for the most part dont want to attack them. And yeah anyone can have a lv req, it doesnt make them good, I mean jesus calamity has an application you have to fill out, doesnt that give you an idea just how many people are trying to get themselves in? I met a lv9x once that wasnt accepted soely because they're want room for that person and the other (higher level) people to join.


      You tell me that TW is designed to be a fair system after time and time and time again this happens on EVERY server? Im sorry, that doesnt make sence, it really doesnt. Raging Tides and Archosaur will eventually be the same, there will be good TW at first, then once X faction slips up they'll get glomped by Y faction, and then people will see that Y faction has more land and a good amount of high levels will scream to join, and suddenly Y faction is stronger than faction A B C D E etc.
      The 3 fundamental F's of Perfect World are "Fun, Fast, and Free."

      You may pick two.
    • Posts: 747 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Those items aren't always exclusively used by the land holding guild since there are people who joined the guild solely for profit who sell these items or even "spies" who leak them out to rival guilds. If your on a PVE server there isn't a need to panic eventually you can stop a guild from permanently holding the map a solid color since you cant be KOS and there are no real damaging consequences for attacking the land holding guild like seriously what can they do? KS? It may be a solid color for a couple weeks or months but the map being one solid color forever on a PVE server with all these hyper double exp 75 dollar 10 star orbs no way. PVP is different since KOS can actually be used as a deterrent. You won't be TWing if your not farming, merchant, or CSing your butt off since +5-10 gear wtfpwnbbq cheap +3 free player gear.
    • Posts: 227 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
      You'd be surprised how many 90+ will go to a faction just to "Fight the red beast"

      And if you can't defend your land from another faction in a 1vs1, you don't deserve to keep it.



      If you cannot beat a faction in a 1vs1 TW, you don't deserve to have their land. It seems other guilds just want to be given the lands that other guilds have. The idea is that you fight for the land. If your best 80 cannot beat the other factions best 80 in TW, then you shouldn't own their land. If you ask me it's a bit much to even allow 1vs3 TWs.

      Certainly, when talking about one individual land, then I agree. However, the problem comes up when we're talking about the whole map. If, as you suggest, only 1v1 TWs could occur (one at a time), then the best faction on the server will acquire all of the lands (one week at a time), and that will always be how things go. It's pretty much how things are now.

      I agree the best faction should hold the most lands, but to say it can hold all of the lands because it can take every other guild 1v1 is an unbalanced system, in my opinion.
    • Posts: 7,881 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

      If a faction can't beat another faction in a 1vs1 TW, then they don't deserve to have their land. It already allows for 1vs3 TWs, what more do you need?

      Its not 1vs3... its 200vs240, even if the defender is attacked by 4000 players across an alliance of 20 guilds the worst they face is 200vs240.

      Thats also ignoring that those TW are spread 3 minutes apart so if you can kill the first of all attacks in 6 mins you have 160vs160.

      While the giant red factions have earned that land without cheating or anything.. no faction realistically deserves to control the entire map when all they've proven they can prevail 160vs160.

      The best TW faction should hold the most land... holding all of it is just stupid.
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    • Posts: 6,790 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      I agree however I must point out
      if you can kill the first of all attacks in 6 mins you have 160vs160.

      If a faction cannot last more than 6 minutes in TW, they shouldn't be bidding in the first place. Then they're just messing up things for those who do want to take some land from the dominating factions.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    • Posts: 7,881 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
      I agree however I must point out



      If a faction cannot last more than 6 minutes in TW, they shouldn't be bidding in the first place. Then they're just messing up things for those who do want to take some land from the dominating factions.

      Mmm alright.. I was just pointing out its not even 200v240..
      its 80v80... then 160vs160... then 200v240

      Strategically its a significant difference.

      In any case even consistently prevailing in 200vs240 should not guarantee a guild control of the entire map. If you are attacked by 4000 players why do you only have to fight 200vs240?
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    • Posts: 6,790 Arc User
      edited March 2010
      True but you should be able to control a majority of the lands. I don't think that there has been any system proposed that would really allow for a guild to still control the map without having every single territory.


      Removing limits is a good idea in theory, but I don't think the solution is as simple as removing the three wars at a time limit. Sounds good in principle but I can see a million things going wrong if it was actually implemented.



      Of course all this talk is meaningless, I garuntee you that the developers will never change anything.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
      "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."

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