Assassin PvP

/itamins - Archosaur · March 2010

Is Puncture wound any good for pvp, ive used it, but i cant really tell if its effective for pvp.

Also Knife throw, i havnt lvled it yet, but its useful sometimes when one is running to get that last hit.

Opinions please. b:pleased

EvAxx - Sanctuary · March 2010

/itamins - Archosaur wrote: »

Is Puncture wound any good for pvp, ive used it, but i cant really tell if its effective for pvp.

Also Knife throw, i havnt lvled it yet, but its useful sometimes when one is running to get that last hit.

Opinions please. b:pleased

Puncture wound is only good in PvE until ~50+. After that you remove it from your shortcuts and never use it again unless you are skill spamming and need a filler skill but generally you have much better choices.

Knife Throw I haven't found much use yet. Maybe if I'm trying to pull a mob from a group of monsters. It's better to chase after mobs with your speed buffs or teleportation. Though it's generally better to prevent mobs/players from running in the first place by stunning/immobolizing them. It does work decently against mages if you know other character's casting animations, have good reaction time, and are generally lag free. Great for cancelling the dangerous but slow tempest. So if you are planning to PvP, level it when you can (you have other skills that can cancel skills) otherwise leave it at level 1. I haven't found much need to cancel mob casters.

Evict - Heavens Tear · March 2010

In terms of PvP, Puncture Wound is always useful. It bleeds target for massive damage and has short cooldown, used correctly with the number of stuns we have, it's lethal.

Knife Throw I really only use for PvE luring (start of bh59/lone monsters), but you'll find that if you use Knife Throw at close range, the next attack doesn't have any break in between (if pressed during Knife Throw animation).

EvAxx - Sanctuary · March 2010

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In terms of PvP, Puncture Wound is always useful. It bleeds target for massive damage and has short cooldown, used correctly with the number of stuns we have, it's lethal.

Knife Throw I really only use for PvE luring (start of bh59/lone monsters), but you'll find that if you use Knife Throw at close range, the next attack doesn't have any break in between (if pressed during Knife Throw animation).

The bleed is nice and beats other skills in terms of damage on paper, but the thing is that the bleed itself doesn't crit or at least not to my knowledge. Does the bleed even experience a bonus from CoD? Also, bleed maybe have nice damage but it deals it overtime. Unless you time it right and don't use it 9 seconds before the other guy dies, you might risk missing that one attack needed to kill him.

TurboTaxi - Lost City · March 2010

puncture wound..... i could live without.

knife throw? i've smacked both a running AA and LA for 5k-6k crit dmg with just this skill. yea, must have.

Munsu - Lost City · March 2010

I find knife throw is really good to use when a magic class is channeling spells. Usually interupts them.

Evict - Heavens Tear · March 2010

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

The bleed is nice and beats other skills in terms of damage on paper, but the thing is that the bleed itself doesn't crit or at least not to my knowledge. Does the bleed even experience a bonus from CoD? Also, bleed maybe have nice damage but it deals it overtime. Unless you time it right and don't use it 9 seconds before the other guy dies, you might risk missing that one attack needed to kill him.

The Damage over Time effect is exactly the reason you use it, it's like a constant ~1k hit without any channelling and no after-delay. Stacked with stuns and other attacks, it creates higher DPS.

EvAxx - Sanctuary · March 2010

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The Damage over Time effect is exactly the reason you use it, it's like a constant ~1k hit without any channelling and no after-delay. Stacked with stuns and other attacks, it creates higher DPS.

I think you are missing the fact that you have to cast the bleed from a skill called Puncture Wound. It is not like that 4.2k damage isn't coming at the expense of anything; if that were the case then it would increase your DPS by several hundred points. It's coming at the expense of another skill. Almost all assassin skills have base damage + 100% of weapon damage so you can set aside that. Which leaves Puncture Wound with 4.2k points of bleed. That is not much different from doing 4.2k worth of damage immediately. In fact it is worse than something that has an immediate 4.2k points of damage add on because you have to wait 9 secs to receive that full 4.2k damage.

If you still don't get it take this analogy. Would you rather receive 4.2k in cash immediately or over the course of the year? You might think it's 4.2k of cash either way but there's more to it. Getting that 4.2k cash immediately would allow you to invest it to make even more cash and generate income. Even if you just spend it, it would allow you to buy that brand spanking... sofa now instead of waiting 9 months. A lot of institutions in life rather have you pay something now because they can use the money to make more money or charge you interest to make up for that lost of money they could have made since you paid in small amounts over time. Also think compounded interest.. All of these things should be obvious if you have taken a basic economics course in jhs/hs.

There are times where waiting for something might be worth it but the returns aren't great enough for me to wait for the bleed.

Also, there's the fact that bleed does NOT crit. Making its worth less. The bleed is also NOT effected by CotD. Meaning Slipstream strike with an add-on of 3k would be increased to 3.9k with the chance to crit while Puncture Wound's bleed is a set 4.2k. Although 3.9k is still less 4.2k but you'll get that damage which you can invest it into a chance of crit or at least into your opponents health points immediately.

BTW just a side note a skill spamming assassin needs mixture of good DHP and DPS. If you don't know what I mean I would try reading the attack speed thread in the archer's forum.

Evict - Heavens Tear · March 2010

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think you are missing the fact that you have to cast the bleed from a skill called Puncture Wound. It is not like that 4.2k damage isn't coming at the expense of anything; if that were the case then it would increase your DPS by several hundred points. It's coming at the expense of another skill. Almost all assassin skills have base damage + 100% of weapon damage so you can set aside that. Which leaves Puncture Wound with 4.2k points of bleed. That is not much different from doing 4.2k worth of damage immediately. In fact it is worse than something that has an immediate 4.2k points of damage add on because you have to wait 9 secs to receive that full 4.2k damage.

If you still don't get it take this analogy. Would you rather receive 4.2k in cash immediately or over the course of the year? You might think it's 4.2k of cash either way...

There are times where waiting for something might be worth it but the returns aren't great enough for me to wait for the bleed.

Also, there's the fact that bleed does NOT crit. Making its worth less. The bleed is also NOT effected by CotD. Meaning Slipstream strike with an add-on of 3k would be increased to 3.9k with the chance to crit while Puncture Wound's bleed is a set 4.2k. Although 3.9k is still less 4.2k but you'll get that damage which you can invest it into a chance of crit or at least into your opponents health points immediately.

BTW just a side note a skill spamming assassin needs mixture of good DHP and DPS. If you don't know what I mean I would try reading the attack speed thread in the archer's forum.

Analogy was tl;dr. How many charmed people have you killed in TW, not duels? Using all your Damage skills leaves you with melee and sh*tload of cooldowns. Aside from that, lets not forget Sins have a 3 second and 5 second stun along with a 5 second sleep (at 95% chance), more than enough time do a bleed+damage skill chain.

The point I'm trying to make by using DoT is that throughout the fight, you're going to be damaging the person with skills and have a bleed going during that, if you're strong enough, the damage will tick a charm and you'll have time to bang em dead.

BTW, Puncture Wound has an opening damage that can crit.

Edit: Don't even know why I bothered arguing, we all have our own individual playing styles, I choose to spread my damage (even if it is only 1.8 seconds) out. So if you reply and give me 10 paragraphs on more reasons to buy a sofa, I won't bother replying, done deal. omnonmonmnom.

RADD_RATT - Harshlands · March 2010

eh, i only use puncture wound when im waiting for other skills to cool down with CotD on. it doesnt hurt but its not great either. and knife throw has 2 uses, to kill the guy running away with barely any hp left, or more importantly to stop mages channeling. it works wonders on nubs that use macros to pvp

Yarly - Harshlands · March 2010

Puncture wound was the best skill at first, then it becomes a memory.

EvAxx - Sanctuary · March 2010

Yarly - Harshlands wrote: »

Puncture wound was the best skill at first, then it becomes a memory.

Finally some truth.

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Analogy was tl;dr. How many charmed people have you killed in TW, not duels? Using all your Damage skills leaves you with melee and sh*tload of cooldowns. Aside from that, lets not forget Sins have a 3 second and 5 second stun along with a 5 second sleep (at 95% chance), more than enough time do a bleed+damage skill chain.

The point I'm trying to make by using DoT is that throughout the fight, you're going to be damaging the person with skills and have a bleed going during that, if you're strong enough, the damage will tick a charm and you'll have time to bang em dead.

BTW, Puncture Wound has an opening damage that can crit.

Edit: Don't even know why I bothered arguing, we all have our own individual playing styles, I choose to spread my damage (even if it is only 1.8 seconds) out. So if you reply and give me 10 paragraphs on more reasons to buy a sofa, I won't bother replying, done deal. omnonmonmnom.

Truthfully, I shouldn't argue about skills because normal attacks are higher in DPS and only an idiot would argue that they won't don't have the DPH to break charms. DPH is **** when it doesn't have the attack speed to back it up. But for the sake of argument I am here. Also I'm not arguing that you shouldn't use Puncture Wound. Just that it is a **** skill. Yes you need fillers but there are much better skills that should be spammed instead unless you absolutely need to Puncture Wound. DOT doesn't mean ****. If the damage is same or less than pure damage, it is OBVIOUSLY worse. Any other skill would be of better use, especially with power dash.

BTW all other skills have the same opening damage that can crit except other skills have an add-on that can as well. And.. I specifically referred to bleed. So don't go believing I didn't know that.

Edit: That's a lousy argument. Just like opinions, you may have your own playing style but it is a **** one. /End story go play like ****.

Edit2: The analogy was necessary for your ignorant comment of increasing DPS.

Evict - Heavens Tear · March 2010

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edit: That's a lousy argument. Just like opinions, you may have your own playing style but it is a **** one. /End story go play like ****.

Edit2: The analogy was necessary for your ignorant comment of increasing DPS.

/Gtfo and l2sin. I didn't attack your playing style. If I wanted to be a "OHAY I R GUNNA SAPM ALL MY S00PER 1333333338 SKILZ 1ST CUS DMG LUKS GUD", I would've picked a Barb or even a Wizard. I chose Sin cause it's debuff capabilities are far better than all the other classes. And no, your analogy was put in to make yourself look like you knew what you were talking about, go back to Sofa King where you belong.

Edit: Go back to the kitchen* where you belong.

EvAxx - Sanctuary · March 2010

Evict - Heavens Tear wrote: »

/Gtfo and l2sin. I didn't attack your playing style. If I wanted to be a "OHAY I R GUNNA SAPM ALL MY S00PER 1333333338 SKILZ 1ST CUS DMG LUKS GUD", I would've picked a Barb or even a Wizard. I chose Sin cause it's debuff capabilities are far better than all the other classes. And no, your analogy was put in to make yourself look like you knew what you were talking about, go back to Sofa King where you belong.

Edit: Go back to the kitchen* where you belong.

" I chose Sin cause it's debuff capabilities are far better than all the other classes."...
"The Damage over Time effect is exactly the reason you use it, it's like a constant ~1k hit without any channelling and no after-delay. Stacked with stuns and other attacks, it creates higher DPS."

Kid grow up. Those lines are pathetic, and directly shows how much you know. Compared to you, I do know what I'm talking about, TY. You're just another kid who thinks his opinion needs to be heard or so important that no one should challenge it. Guess what, your parents are wrong. Your opinion is insignificant unless you can present it well to others which you haven't done. (opinion = playing style, analogy anyone? BB don't bother replying.) BTW, I'm a guy and GJ being sexist. Did you have some kind of superiority complex because you thought I was a girl? Now go back to playing with your puncture wound, emo kid.

Accel - Raging Tide · March 2010

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

" I chose Sin cause it's debuff capabilities are far better than all the other classes."...
"The Damage over Time effect is exactly the reason you use it, it's like a constant ~1k hit without any channelling and no after-delay. Stacked with stuns and other attacks, it creates higher DPS."

Kid grow up. Those lines are pathetic, and directly shows how much you know. Compared to you, I do know what I'm talking about, TY. You're just another kid who thinks his opinion needs to be heard or so important that no one should challenge it. Guess what, your parents are wrong. Your opinion is insignificant unless you can present it well to others which you haven't done. (opinion = playing style, analogy anyone? BB don't bother replying.) BTW, I'm a guy and GJ being sexist. Did you have some kind of superiority complex because you thought I was a girl? Now go back to playing with your puncture wound, emo kid.

Do you write paragraphs in all your posts? I'm 9x and I still use puncture wound occasionally well all skills have been spammed and still cooling down. b:cute I MUST BE NOOB LA~

Evict - Heavens Tear · March 2010

EvAxx - Sanctuary wrote: »

" I chose Sin cause it's debuff capabilities are far better than all the other classes."...
"The Damage over Time effect is exactly the reason you use it, it's like a constant ~1k hit without any channelling and no after-delay. Stacked with stuns and other attacks, it creates higher DPS."

Kid grow up. Those lines are pathetic, and directly shows how much you know. Compared to you, I do know what I'm talking about, TY. You're just another kid who thinks his opinion needs to be heard or so important that no one should challenge it. Guess what, your parents are wrong. Your opinion is insignificant unless you can present it well to others which you haven't done. (opinion = playing style, analogy anyone? BB don't bother replying.) BTW, I'm a guy and GJ being sexist. Did you have some kind of superiority complex because you thought I was a girl? Now go back to playing with your puncture wound, emo kid.

Dueled using your approach, and I admit that on non-charmed players, it was more effective time-wise. But against a charmed player, DoT earlier on was much more effective.

Edit: Disregarded your failattempt at response and/or flame. Also, still haven't read your analogy. Saw 'sofa' and knew it was going to be full of bs.

/threadkthx

EvAxx - Sanctuary · March 2010

Once again DOT doesn't help to break a charm anymore than pure damage. Against charmed arcanes, you should be able to finish them before all your skills are in CD hell. If not, just give up skill spamming and spark + normal attack. Against charmed LA or HA, that 4.2k will experience a 75% pk damage reduction, and an additional 50%-80+% damage reduction from armor. <600 damage over NINE seconds is far from impressive as you first claimed. And very negligible against 10k+ life. I don't skill spam much but just by looking at cast/channel/cooldown times for Slipstream Strike, Rib Strike, Cut Throat, and Earthen Rift there should be no need to cast Puncture wound.

Yes, I do type paragraphs every time I comment. Language is going down the drain if you can't even read two paragraphs and rather read something as crappy as "it's my opinion" as an argument. Also people seem to misunderstand my argument. Therefore this will be a summary of my argument direction so far. People like Evict do not have to read since it's TL;DL and continue posting the same ignorant ****. My first argument was that Puncture Wound is no more than a filler, no more, no less. My argument expanded when Evict claims that Puncture Wound is a useful skill with MASSIVE damage. Then apparently it does "1k damage" without any channel or cast time and generates a higher DPS (which you actually lose DPS when you first cast it due to no add on and then your DPS goes up slightly but on average your DPS is exactly the same as doing a pure 4.2k damage. Although my argument digressed a little to the discussion of bleed itself.) Then Evict claims that "it's my playing style, everyone has their own blah blah." I've heard that a lot except instead of play style it's when people try to "defend" their opinions by giving something as crappy as "everyone has their own opinions" and somehow that just ends my argument because apparently I cannot challenge their opinion. Finally he posts something as ridiculous as "I chose Sin cause it's debuff capabilities are far better than all the other classes", and in the next sentence he is claiming that I'm trying to put up a smart-**** front when I don't know anything.

Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver · March 2010

If you stack bleed Dots intermittently, it does increase your damage output. Lets take for instance if a barbs Flesh Ream didn't do bleed damage you'd notice, because it would take longer to kill bosses. Its also one of the most potent abilities in their arsenal due to damage over time. its like, If I cant hit you because you're attempting to kite, and you're bleeding, it doesn't matter, because I'm still dealing damage to you.

I use it in duels against Lighter players as insurance. Because If Im stunned, Slept, Silenced, I cant do anything, but they're still bleeding so I'm still fighting.

Look at it this way:

If a Barb's flesh Ream didnt do bleed damage you'd notice it, because it would take longer to kill, because of the lack of the additional damage that it does put out, how ever little it may be, it does help, and if everyone stacks bleed onto a boss (all bleed DOT skills stack together) then it dies even faster because of the additional DPS dealt from each attack. Its like having an extra 200-500 damage added into your weapon, plus the initial attack from the attack isnt too shabby either.

heres the lvl 10 break down of puncture wound:
Puncture Wound Level 10
Range 4.5 Meters
Mana 53.8
Channel 0.2 seconds
Cast 1.8 seconds
Cooldown 8.0 seconds
Weapon Daggers

Requisite Cultivation Spiritual Initiate
Deals base physical damage plus 100% of weapon damage.
Causes the target to bleed for 4210.5 physical damage over 9 seconds.

Basically, you're getting Double damage in the time it would take you to do it one attack plus an extra 467 damage per second respectively (dependent on their pdef or if its a player or mob)

I understand both sides of the argument, but Regrettably EvA you are incorrect, while correct (what a dichotomy @.@). Added damage is always nice but not nessicary, But I do agree that Bleed dots ARE NOT effective against heavy armored classes because its Physical damage. I do however have to state they're highly effective against squishies. Its not ignorance if both are correct, but it is ignorant to ignore the truth

Assassin PvP

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