Verbally abusing vital squad members?

I agree and disagree on a few things.

Cryin: Yes, unwined FB69s generally end in tears. BH takes long enough already.

Ilwyn_: Usually if someone's QQing at someone it's because they're not doing their job right. I'm very fond of people who go out of the class stereotypes and do something well. But if you can't do your base job (i.e. tanking, healing, luring, DDing without aggroing) you will recieve much QQ from the rest of the squad. Although I wasn't there, it does sound like the rest of the squad left because of your friend barb. Are you sure he was doing his job right?
If he was, excuse my rant.

You can never be sure with the new generation of oraclers, BH babies and hyper exp stones!


PWI will never be the same.


(the fb69 wined fee is what 50K ish now? 50k to go twice as fast with much less hassle? a bargain!)

wtf i wouldn't have healed even if it was a tank pulling pole while the rest of the squad was turning in...

First of all I do agree that verbal abusing the vital squad members is stupid. If you don't like the way they do their job, just go make a cleric/barb yourself and stop QQing. Luckily I haven't met any people to blame me to be a bad cleric or stuff, but maybe thats mostly because I usually do bhs and quests with my friends/guildies, not with a bunch of random people.

When it comes to bh69, its definately not fail to do it unwined if you only need to kill pyro. I'd rather call it waste of money to waste 60k for each pyro you get at lvl 7x and I rather skip them/do them unwined/find a squad which is willing to not charge money from the cleric. So far I've done one unwined run, which took about an hour and of course some deaths, but it wasn't that bad at all. Of course doing all bosses for bhs after lvl 80

You should never abuse ANY player, regardless of his/her role. I do understand the reason Barb/Cleric are usually given more leeway than any other class, but personally feel incresingly tired of having to baby them and indulge their whims. I'll make it clear i would never put the squad in a position of having to choose between me and the people they "need", i'll usually leave squad after speaking my mind if i find i cannot bear the attitude of the "vital" classes.

Now, i don't know the particulars in the OP's case but i think someone should speak up for the other side. Good Barbs and Clerics lead by example and put the squad ahead of themselves. I've seen Barbs town when they didn't have to because it would make things faster/easier for everyone. I've seen Clerics that instead of whining and ******** when they die try to come up with a new strategy and organize the squad. Barbs/Clerics are in a possition of responsability, not privilege. Unfortunately you know you can't always ask people to back you up when doing so means they may loose the instance, but leaving squad is the prerogative of any player when they are unhappy about how things are being handled. Some days you just can't deal with failed prima donnas...

something similar happened to me yesterday on a Brimstone run, this cleric was BBing every corner, no matter what or how many mobs were ahead of us and he was level 95.... So I felt kinda obligated to lure, I could handle it at least, except we had a level 83 BM who had only a Sword (and she said she'd NEVER pvp b:angry) and the 99 Archer would always steal aggro from me with Barrage and ended up dying 5 times (the squad died 3 times)

Of course I felt guilty but I dont know if it was really my fault, if the BM had at least Axes and landed a HF and some AoE skills (she NEVER used AoE stun) the pull would at least die much quicker and nobody would have died probably... I decided to never squad with her anymore, I dont feel like trying my 100% when someone in my squad is clueless about how to do their job

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why the bias?

Of course it's technically true that healers and tanks are the most necessary team members, but the way you worded your post, you make it sound like DDs are unnecessary or even trouble. It's widely accepted that DDs are extremely useful in completing boss kills quickly, which in turn saves the cleric's MP/charm and the tank's repair bill, among other things. Then there are the extremely useful skills which otherwise would be hard to come by or require tons of genie stamina use - the archer's Sharptooth Arrow, the wizard's Sandstorm, and the assassin's Rib Strike come to mind, among others.

This post should have simply been titled, "Verbally abusing squad members." Including "vital" in there implies that it's only important not to abuse the tanks and clerics, whereas ripping on the DDs is just fine. And trust me, I've seen some terrible DDs too. But we're all people here. It stands to reason that you should treat your squad members based on common courtesy and dignity rather than on the class they play.

My apologies if this wasn't your intent - the trivialization of DD classes is a bit of a sore spot for me. :-/

Agreed.

I recently did a bh 51 with just me, a barb, and a veno. We got through it fine, but man alive, did it waste a lot of time and mana, for both me and the veno. I can't imagine what the higher BHes would be like without some dedicated DDers. b:surrender

All in all, I think everyone should be mindful not to verbally abuse anyone. Yeah, everyone runs into people who have no idea what they're doing... but instead of just calling them "fail" and complaining about them, it's better to try to get them to understand what they're doing wrong and why (as a cleric, I fortunately have the prerogative of letting people die to prove a point. That tends to drill it in a bit more succinctly). Gentle instructions and suggestions can help the honestly oblivious, while teaming up to not put up with any guff can help against the stubbornly noobish. Even after the most pointed efforts to improve their game is stubbornly ignored, straight verbal abuse is hardly a solution to anything.

As Miugre said: we're all people. Even oracle noobs and bh babies are people underneath. b:victory

I've had people call me bossy before (and its entirely merited, so I don't hold it against anyone), but I've never been called "fail," because, for all my henpecking, it's obvious that I at least know what I'm doing. I suggest everyone else who can put one virtual foot in front of the other do the same. b:chuckle

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why the bias?

Of course it's technically true that healers and tanks are the most necessary team members, but the way you worded your post, you make it sound like DDs are unnecessary or even trouble. It's widely accepted that DDs are extremely useful in completing boss kills quickly, which in turn saves the cleric's MP/charm and the tank's repair bill, among other things. Then there are the extremely useful skills which otherwise would be hard to come by or require tons of genie stamina use - the archer's Sharptooth Arrow, the wizard's Sandstorm, and the assassin's Rib Strike come to mind, among others.

This post should have simply been titled, "Verbally abusing squad members." Including "vital" in there implies that it's only important not to abuse the tanks and clerics, whereas ripping on the DDs is just fine. And trust me, I've seen some terrible DDs too. But we're all people here. It stands to reason that you should treat your squad members based on common courtesy and dignity rather than on the class they play.

My apologies if this wasn't your intent - the trivialization of DD classes is a bit of a sore spot for me. :-/

Yea, that reminds me of something.
I was questing abit at burning heart when I saw a WC asking for a DD for pol.
Not getting it, I decided to go w/e and msg the person asking what she meant. Turned out they needed a DD for pole. I happened to have BH pole, so I joined them. It was 1barb, 2 cleric, and that's it. They were already in combat, seeing by the debufs poping up on the barb it was pole.

Took me 5 mins to get to 1kstreams, 1min more to get to arch and teleport stone into the FB. Than I had to run through the FB (shortcut opened) to get to pole, which was another 5mins or so.
When I arived, pole was at 70%. They had already been fighting him before they even put out the WC.
So that was maybe up to 30 mins of a barb solo DDing and 2 clerics spamming IH/purify to get pole down to 70%. In other words they would have fought for over 1hour, had it been without me. By that time a fully repaired set of armor would probably be about to break, and the clerics would probably have burned over 1 gold mp charm (they were not charmed, but to illustrate).
5mins after I arived pole was dead.
Turned out the rest of they're squad left after nob and pyro, and they decided to just try pole (probably had a left over BH pole from the day before like me or so).

Now tell me you don't need DD's b:laugh

xgrade wrote: »

You guys r idiots for doing it unwined, bigger idiots for failing to finish it, lets go over the chain of events
Fail leader decides to get more people for a bh because hes to poor to make or farm enough money for wines> People who fail at their class see this wc and think this is a good idea> you guys go in and get wiped> whose fault is it? the idiot that made the party?, the fail barb for luring?, the fail dds for luring?, the cleric for agreeing to waste mp on a 2 hour unwined run?

I think some of you are vastly overestimating the time it takes to do 69 unwined. When I had BH69, I could solo clear it unwined up to pole/gaurnob with my veno+herc in ~2 hours. Heck, I did that solo in less than 4 hours when my veno was 68 (blessing did not expire), and that was before genie pulling. A good 80-89 group should be able to rip through it in about 30-45 minutes unwined. Probably not worth the 50k savings in wine, but certainly no reason to assume anyone doing it unwined is stupid.

I completely understand the OP.

I'm more than used to doing BH69 by now and rarely are there any problems. But I have noticed that whenever a problem does occur, it is most often the tank and / or the cleric that gets the **** hurdled at them. This is understandable in the sense that they are in the responsibility of getting the squad through alive.

However, I have also found out that more often than not, when a squad wipe occurs and a person starts hurdling **** around, it's the QQers fault, not the tanks, or clerics. There are a couple of examples.

It's not too uncommon for a BM, or a Sin (Over aggressive ones) to leeroy a lot of mobs at once in BH's and just expect that the cleric has BB ready to go, or that the tank can gain aggro from all of the mobs immediately. Sometimes with multiple tank able classes (BM, Veno, Barb.... that sort of lot) it's not a big problem, but occationally a squad wipe does occur at these moments and more than likely the person that leeroyd is going to whine about cleric not healing fast enough, or barb being unable to hold aggro. That's not the clerics, or tanks fault, they have their limits, can only tank and heal so much. It's the leeroyers fault for not understanding what pulling means.

Another example is when the over aggressive guy dies, for example in a pole fight after stealing aggro from a barb. If he's the QQer type of person they are propably gonna hurdle the said **** at the barb for being fail. Excuse me, but if you steal aggro from the tank, that's not the tanks fault. It's your own fault for not knowing your class.

Basic rule: Want to avoid squad drama in BH? Avoid the whiners, more often than not they are the ones causing the problem and then placing blame on others.

On a personal note there's one thing I find absolutely, horrifyingly and disgustingly rude.
When a squad wipe does occur, what class goes to town? The cleric of course and most likely the said class loses 100% of the xp loss on death, so that she/he can come back to give you a rez. It is therefore horrifyingly rude to start whining about dying when you get a lvl 10 rez anyway. Not that this happens often, but it does occationally. Please, do not complain about xp loss from squad wipe when you get a rez from a cleric that had just gone to town.

Danikovich - Heavens Tear wrote: »

something similar happened to me yesterday on a Brimstone run, this cleric was BBing every corner, no matter what or how many mobs were ahead of us and he was level 95.... ...

you know, few days ago i bbed most of brim bh... because i had so terrible lag it was only heal that actually worked on time. riders were a nightmare and i got wiz killed and almost died myself too, lag + interrupt on aoe heal was just too much. so maybe your cleric had reasons to do what he did... i warned my squad whats going on though.

as for op: if only ppl respected others... you dont have to be rude even if you dont agree with them at all, unfortunately many ppl never learned that.

Example of obnoxious to the point of idiotic from last week: i was asked by a friend to help with fb in 51. not for her, she was helping a guildie. i hate 51 but shes a good friend so i agreed, and even brought in 2 more ppl. tabber was a... spoiled brat. too childish to even deserve a 'jerk'. almost caused a wipe twice (quite a feat considering level of helpers), didnt listen to our stupid mumblings like 'stop here' or 'hug the wall' but what he did after rankar takes the prize. he left without picking drops and i was sure they will vanish before he comes back. so i gathered them and also asked a friend to help pick up. and that was the moment kid kicked a fuss. 'im the tabber, dont take my drops, they all belong to me' and so on and so on. i got realy angry, i told him 1) i can drop them immediately on the floor and just let them vanish 2) i never stole a drop in my entire career 3) just take a look at my gear and decide if i really need 2 star equips for lvl 50...
i came there not for him but for Gina so i stayed for wyvern, and so did my firends (after chewing him up) but even for her i wont come to help him with anything ever again.