Sage Vs. Demon - Discuss

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Every thread I've been posting on lately seems to turn into a sage vs. demon debate, so I'm making a thread here for discussion. Let me know your thoughts. Also if you're below 89 and haven't quite decided, this thread will probably help out a lot.

Here are 2 fully buffed BMs, one with sage golden bell, magic marrow and fist mastery, one with all demon

Sage
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=dfb1f141f0a9e465

Demon
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a0ff0ef9aa26c4af

First look at the defenses, they are pretty even, but I prefer demon just because its bit more balanced. I will admit though that sage bell is pretty beast. Edge to sage.

Now look at the damage. Weapon masteries are all based on WEAPON damage. The
actual increase in damage is only 3.5%. Its a very small edge(INCREDIBLY small in pvp), but it still goes to sage.

Other skills that go to sage- aeolian blade, farstrike, diamond sutra, and that skill that gives +50 chi.

Now onto why I still think demon far outclasses sage.
Demon spark gives fists the edge due to the increased attack speed, allowing them to perma spark at 3.33 attacks per second. A sage fister can perma spark with nirvana pants but they will only be doing 4 attacks per second, demon is 5. So to any hybrid bm using fists sage REALLY gimps you.

Another aspect is stuns. Demon drake bash is 7.5 seconds, roar never misses, aolian blade has a shorter cooldown, and meteor rush and MSS can also stun. This gives demons a HUGE edge in pvp, even more so to a fist bm because keeping someone in place is just that more important. Also if someone still happens to run away, farstrike and drakes ray are both 18 meters as demon, that with smack can make the difference between an opponent getting to safe zone or dying.

Sage hf does an extra 2k damage. I think a demon bm can do a LOT more than 2k with an extra 3 seconds of hf, so demon wins out there. Also there's demon glacial spike, with a 50% chance to make ALL hits critical, you can dish out some SERIOUS spike damage with that, especially when combined with 9 seconds of hf.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I know I'm not a blademaster but... I'd have to choose demon for this class, like has already been said longer HF, chances at extra stuns, and 5APS... is it just me or does that seem freaking nice? b:dirty

(and yes, I actually have compared the different skills blademasters, just as I've done for Wizards, Clerics, and Barbarians so.... yeah don't say I shouldn't be here because I'm a Clericb:angry)

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · March 2010

Every thread I've been posting on lately seems to turn into a sage vs. demon debate, so I'm making a thread here for discussion.

havent the millions of d/s threads already expressed our thoughts on the discussion >_>?

MALIGNO - Harshlands · March 2010

If your rational about about demon buffs is more balance than sage buffs then you haven't met or encounter a high DD(damage dealer) magic caster or even archers who use thunder bolt. That and your pvp experience is still in its infancy. you can use the word "balance" but on pvp, trust me, balance is not the word you want to cling at. 180% marrow magic/phy and 90% sage bell will and makes the difference when you're pvp'ing along with your other skills.

"Demon spark gives fists the edge due to the increased attack speed, allowing them to perma spark at 3.33 attacks per second. A sage fister can perma spark with nirvana pants but they will only be doing 4 attacks per second, demon is 5. So to any hybrid bm using fists sage REALLY gimps you."

PVE, demon sage can and will shine due to perma spark which will equate to automatic aggro against some barbs and other Tank. If you get your kicks on being TANK on PVE then by alll means more power to you. I'm sure barbs are happy that their repair bills is a lot cheaper now. Now to look at the overall picture, On pve, you are just a small part on taking out that FB bosses or even World Bosses. You're constant damage you get from perma spark is still minute compare to rank 8 DD with HF/DG(heavens flame/dragon). now lwts talk about PVP. I still think you still need to experience more pvp to know that by the time you finish your demon spark, your opponent will be far away from you unless you have a teamate helpig you stun locking him/her. Most pro pvp (with a good refine weapon or rank 8) knows how to defeat a BM; sleep/stun + spark + their ultis or their highest damage dealing skill ( water dragon from wiz, thunder bolt from archers, perd from barbs and so forth) and trust me all of these can 1 shoot a demon BM.b:laugh

"Another aspect is stuns. Demon drake bash is 7.5 seconds, roar never misses, aolian blade has a shorter cooldown, and meteor rush and MSS can also stun. This gives demons a HUGE edge in pvp, even more so to a fist bm because keeping someone in place is just that more important. Also if someone still happens to run away, farstrike and drakes ray are both 18 meters as demon, that with smack can make the difference between an opponent getting to safe zone or dying."

Most pro pvp'er that i've met knows all about BMs capability to stun lock therefore they use anti stun pots. Smack losses its effect with a blink of an eye so timing it is very crucial to be even effective. as far as drakes ray and farstrike, last time i look, sage BM has the upper hand on this. so while you're trying to stun lock an opponent with a 20secs anti stun pot, he is DDing you like crazy. Again, to be effective will depend on all your skill (get occult ice so PRO)

"You mention sage hf does an extra 2k damage. I think a demon bm can do a LOT more than 2k with an extra 3 seconds of hf, so demon wins out there. Also there's demon glacial spike, with a 50% chance to make ALL hits critical, you can dish out some SERIOUS spike damage with that, especially when combined with 9 seconds of hf."

I'll take the 2K damage anytime over the 3 secs HF. HF is one of those skill most pro pvp'er fear the most. Once they see this they run away from its range like high schoolers on ditching day. At most you have 2 secs to have them at HF range before they're holypathing away from you. Glacial spike gives both demon and sage 50% reduce mdef/pdef on your opponent/mobs/bosses. again the combo glacial spike and HF combo can be deadly with another DD focus firing on your target so don't assume this is an uber combo in PVP 1 on 1. I'm getting the feeling you're applying you're PVE tactics on PVP. Too many different conditions are present in PVP and so far, inmy experience, I've lasted more than a demon BM with same lvl as i am. Again i have to re-emphasize this is prolly due to skills more than anything elses. And by the way, I've been FISTsince lvl 1 and now i am sage HYBRID with lvl 11 FIST, POLE and AXE mastery with 75% of my skill being lvl 11 also.

Lastly, try to have bolt of tyrus on your arsenal cause i rarely see this mentioned as part of a very important skill for Fist users.

OHa - Heavens Tear · March 2010

MALIGNO - Harshlands wrote: »

If your rational about about demon buffs is more balance than sage buffs then you haven't met or encounter a high DD(damage dealer) magic caster or even archers who use thunder bolt. That and your pvp experience is still in its infancy. you can use the word "balance" but on pvp, trust me, balance is not the word you want to cling at. 180% marrow magic/phy and 90% sage bell will and makes the difference when you're pvp'ing along with your other skills.

"Demon spark gives fists the edge due to the increased attack speed, allowing them to perma spark at 3.33 attacks per second. A sage fister can perma spark with nirvana pants but they will only be doing 4 attacks per second, demon is 5. So to any hybrid bm using fists sage REALLY gimps you."

PVE, demon sage can and will shine due to perma spark which will equate to automatic aggro against some barbs and other Tank. If you get your kicks on being TANK on PVE then by alll means more power to you. I'm sure barbs are happy that their repair bills is a lot cheaper now. Now to look at the overall picture, On pve, you are just a small part on taking out that FB bosses or even World Bosses. You're constant damage you get from perma spark is still minute compare to rank 8 DD with HF/DG(heavens flame/dragon). now lwts talk about PVP. I still think you still need to experience more pvp to know that by the time you finish your demon spark, your opponent will be far away from you unless you have a teamate helpig you stun locking him/her. Most pro pvp (with a good refine weapon or rank 8) knows how to defeat a BM; sleep/stun + spark + their ultis or their highest damage dealing skill ( water dragon from wiz, thunder bolt from archers, perd from barbs and so forth) and trust me all of these can 1 shoot a demon BM.b:laugh

"Another aspect is stuns. Demon drake bash is 7.5 seconds, roar never misses, aolian blade has a shorter cooldown, and meteor rush and MSS can also stun. This gives demons a HUGE edge in pvp, even more so to a fist bm because keeping someone in place is just that more important. Also if someone still happens to run away, farstrike and drakes ray are both 18 meters as demon, that with smack can make the difference between an opponent getting to safe zone or dying."

Most pro pvp'er that i've met knows all about BMs capability to stun lock therefore they use anti stun pots. Smack losses its effect with a blink of an eye so timing it is very crucial to be even effective. as far as drakes ray and farstrike, last time i look, sage BM has the upper hand on this. so while you're trying to stun lock an opponent with a 20secs anti stun pot, he is DDing you like crazy. Again, to be effective will depend on all your skill (get occult ice so PRO)

"You mention sage hf does an extra 2k damage. I think a demon bm can do a LOT more than 2k with an extra 3 seconds of hf, so demon wins out there. Also there's demon glacial spike, with a 50% chance to make ALL hits critical, you can dish out some SERIOUS spike damage with that, especially when combined with 9 seconds of hf."

I'll take the 2K damage anytime over the 3 secs HF. HF is one of those skill most pro pvp'er fear the most. Once they see this they run away from its range like high schoolers on ditching day. At most you have 2 secs to have them at HF range before they're holypathing away from you. Glacial spike gives both demon and sage 50% reduce mdef/pdef on your opponent/mobs/bosses. again the combo glacial spike and HF combo can be deadly with another DD focus firing on your target so don't assume this is an uber combo in PVP 1 on 1. I'm getting the feeling you're applying you're PVE tactics on PVP. Too many different conditions are present in PVP and so far, inmy experience, I've lasted more than a demon BM with same lvl as i am. Again i have to re-emphasize this is prolly due to skills more than anything elses. And by the way, I've been FISTsince lvl 1 and now i am sage HYBRID with lvl 11 FIST, POLE and AXE mastery with 75% of my skill being lvl 11 also.

Lastly, try to have bolt of tyrus on your arsenal cause i rarely see this mentioned as part of a very important skill for Fist users.

To make long story short - Demon clearly > Sage in PvP. :-)

Nevlik - Heavens Tear · March 2010

MALIGNO - Harshlands wrote: »

If your rational about about demon buffs is more balance than sage buffs then you haven't met or encounter a high DD(damage dealer) magic caster or even archers who use thunder bolt. That and your pvp experience is still in its infancy. you can use the word "balance" but on pvp, trust me, balance is not the word you want to cling at. 180% marrow magic/phy and 90% sage bell will and makes the difference when you're pvp'ing along with your other skills.

The difference between alter marrow and golden bell sage/demon is very very small http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=51df1ab4a8f176a4

you can refine w/e but the actual % reduction will change barely 2-3%.

MALIGNO - Harshlands wrote: »

PVE, demon sage can and will shine due to perma spark which will equate to automatic aggro against some barbs and other Tank. If you get your kicks on being TANK on PVE then by alll means more power to you. I'm sure barbs are happy that their repair bills is a lot cheaper now. Now to look at the overall picture, On pve, you are just a small part on taking out that FB bosses or even World Bosses. You're constant damage you get from perma spark is still minute compare to rank 8 DD with HF/DG(heavens flame/dragon). now lwts talk about PVP. I still think you still need to experience more pvp to know that by the time you finish your demon spark, your opponent will be far away from you unless you have a teamate helpig you stun locking him/her. Most pro pvp (with a good refine weapon or rank 8) knows how to defeat a BM; sleep/stun + spark + their ultis or their highest damage dealing skill ( water dragon from wiz, thunder bolt from archers, perd from barbs and so forth) and trust me all of these can 1 shoot a demon BM.b:laugh

lot's of words but not much real info. One suggestion for pve, maybe u don't have to demon spark? crazy right?

MALIGNO - Harshlands wrote: »

I'll take the 2K damage anytime over the 3 secs HF. HF is one of those skill most pro pvp'er fear the most. Once they see this they run away from its range like high schoolers on ditching day. At most you have 2 secs to have them at HF range before they're holypathing away from you. Glacial spike gives both demon and sage 50% reduce mdef/pdef on your opponent/mobs/bosses. again the combo glacial spike and HF combo can be deadly with another DD focus firing on your target so don't assume this is an uber combo in PVP 1 on 1.

This is as nooby as it gets. You don't stun before u drop HF or glacial? Even if they have vac powder on, it's as simple as: wait for it to wear off (maybe use ironguard in the meantime, free 15 sec of invincibility, or use with WoB to be able to fight while invincible)

pflegefall69 · March 2010

1st of all sorry for some wrong names of skills ( iam not from pwi server since the beginning we have other names)
you talk about HF

if you play fist wich is best in 1v1 2spark> HF
2nd holy mdeff sutra is really crazy
big advantage of demon bm is att speed 5
but if you use geenie warsong u can reach it with sage wr too.
also i prefer the sage spark cuz i use 3 spark only as defensive skill to survive
for aoe the sage mountsever sweep is very usefull and in tw the less chi consumption of the sage wr is pwnage.

i would say its nvm if you go dark or holy and depends on your playstyle
dark bit more dmg cuz permanent att speed 5
holy better mdeff little more basic dmg pdeff and alot more chi
( for my att speed calculations i use -0,1 fists, light wrist 99 light boots 99 heavy top and pants. and ofc demon/ sage fistsskill)

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver · March 2010

A level 101 sage BM is rerolling atm just to be demon.
/Thread

Legendadry - Harshlands · March 2010

sage cyclone hee'ls not to bad though and 3 seconds extra on hf =/ come on now. going fist though for pvp only works if you can correctly snare your opponent. doesnt matter if your demon or sage if you opponent can just kite away form u ur useless

Seablue - Sanctuary · March 2010

MALIGNO - Harshlands wrote: »

PVE, demon sage can and will shine due to perma spark which will equate to automatic aggro against some barbs and other Tank. If you get your kicks on being TANK on PVE then by alll means more power to you. I'm sure barbs are happy that their repair bills is a lot cheaper now. Now to look at the overall picture, On pve, you are just a small part on taking out that FB bosses or even World Bosses. You're constant damage you get from perma spark is still minute compare to rank 8 DD with HF/DG(heavens flame/dragon). now lwts talk about PVP. I still think you still need to experience more pvp to know that by the time you finish your demon spark, your opponent will be far away from you unless you have a teamate helpig you stun locking him/her. Most pro pvp (with a good refine weapon or rank 8) knows how to defeat a BM; sleep/stun + spark + their ultis or their highest damage dealing skill ( water dragon from wiz, thunder bolt from archers, perd from barbs and so forth) and trust me all of these can 1 shoot a demon BM.b:laugh

I don't think you realize how much damage a 5aps fist bm can do. I didn't either until I did this calculation.

Fist bm with base 3.33 aps

This bm have an average phy damage of 17128 after demon spark.
now lets calculate:

17128*5aps*(1+.22)=107906.4 damage/sec (crit calculated)

realistically speaking there's a 3 sec of no damage for every 15sec. At that time we could get in 15 hits. So that's 60 hits per min which amounts to a decrease of one hit per sec = 107906.4-17128 = 90778.4 dmg/s

Archer with rank 8 bow and the most -interval I can find (1aps)

This guy have a average damage of 17534.5 unsparked with 1aps, 34879.5 sparked with 1.33 aps
now let's calculate:

at 1aps and 5 chi per hit you get to spark every 60s, so:
60*17534.5*1*(1+.39)=1462377.3 dmg/60s

now for sparked damage:
a demon spark gets 12 sec only due to the 3sec invincibility, so that's
12*34879.5*1.33*(1+.39)=773780.8 dmg/12s

combine and calculate dmg/sec,
(773780.8+1462377.3)/75sec=29815.4 dmg/s (I divided over 75 because of the 3 sec invincibility time is also counted)

Of course during the sparked inverval we have 1.33 aps, so we get about 4 more hits in and therefore 20 more chi per normal hit-sparked round. This would give an extra demon spark per 15 rounds.

29815.4*15*75=33542371.2 dmg/15rounds(1125sec)
12*34879.5*1.33*(1+.39)=773780.8 dmg/12s

(33542371.2+773780.8)/(1125+15)=30154.8 dmg/sec

now if we consider the affect of dragon which can stay for 6s in every 30 sec, then we get the equivalent of 20% extra damage. So that's:

30154.8*1.22=36788.9 dmg/sec

Now for the damage ratio:
90778.4/30154.8=3.01 (without dragon)
90778.4/36788.9=2.46 (with dragon)

So as you can see a 5 aps +12TT100 fist bm does 2.64 times the damage of a +12rank 8 1aps demon archer under constant dragon of a single bm. The damage ratio is increased to 3.01 if no dragon.

This is quite a lot. If you have 3 archers in squad, you contribute 50% of the fire power on the DD's part. If we count in cleric and barb's dmg I'd say you still contribute maybe 35% of the total dmg. That is hardly minute.

EDIT: I don't think I did any math wrong, please correct me if I did.

LifeHunting - Heavens Tear · March 2010

*ready's self with protecting flame shield*

Demon > Sage.

Based purely on the fact my guy is going PvP the moment I can achieve Demon.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary · March 2010

First thing is i am a sage cus imma carebear b:cute

Right, without assuming everyone has a billion dollars to spend on this game, and also taking into account that relying purely on 5 aps with demon spark to kill your enemies is the worst idea in the long sad history of bad ideas, lets compare sage and demon.

Sage Pros:

- efficiency - Alot of sage skills either require less chi to use, or have a chance to gain additional chi while in use. Sage bms can also use fists (contrary to popular belief), which in addition to said skills makes sage incredibly chi efficient. This and the chi skill also make sage great for tw, unless you wanna swallow chi pots like crazy.

- tanking/survivability - To tank just about anything you only need a minimum 2 base aps with fists, more is of course better, but 2 base will keep most NORMAL people from stealing aggro. If you manage to get to 4 base or buffed you can keep up spark erupt for forever. Obviously demon will do more damage with 5 aps sooner, but demons speed boost is all it has, and if a sage bm has the money to get 5 buffed themselves...well demon spark becomes useless in this endeavor. The sage damage reduction is far more useful to tank things with, and since you can hold aggro the damage you deal isent the huge issue here (of course dealing more damage is cool, until you die because you cant survive...and then you lose all built up aggro...such a pitty). Sage shadowless is also much better for canceling, completely canceling most bosses (as in hold down the hotkey and auto cancel...so awesome). Sage meteor rush can also assist in canceling.

- Buffs And Masteries - While the small %'s may not seem great, over time they can make quit a difference. Lets say you attack a few thousand times, now that 3% is suddenly a huge amount of damage difference. This helps with the fact you dont get attack speed as easily, since you deal more damage per hit. The squad buff helps everyone in your squad, so that obviously will make them happy, and the marrows excel in what they were made to do.

- Spike Damage Skills - Mostly because of sage farstrike and sage aeolin, these skills once upgraded hit like a truck, because not every target is gonna happily stand there and let you dps them to death. They are also efficient because they do not use chi.

Demon Pros:

- Easy Attack Speed - Im pretty confident you all know about how this works. Demon can get more attack speed for cheaper than sage can. Both can get 5 in the end, but demon can get it for cheaper, and sooner. Demon spark is awesome to boost attack speed, though in many circumstances exhausting 3 sparks to use it are either a bad or risky idea.

- Stuns - Drake bash lasting for 7.5 seconds, roar never missing with a faster cooldown, obviously better. You wont save any chi using them, but you will stun your enemies much more effectively. Meteor rush also has a stun chance, and aeolin has a reduced cooldown. Bash lasts long enough as demon to fit a triple spark eruption into it, while still maintaining stunlock.. requires good timing, but would be oh so painful.

- Skill effectiveness - Many skills do additional effects rather than save you chi as demon. Skills like Glacial spike, myriad sword stance etc. As well as some additional aoes...in particular shadowless kick becomes and aoe, thus making demon fists the 2nd best aoe weapon to axes with 2 non chi consuming aoes in the tree as well.

Moral of the story...

Both are good for their own reasons! (wow dang i never expected this one)

Sage > PVE
Demon > PVP

You can use sage for pvp, but in general in pvp (unless tw) efficiency doesn't matter, and the effectiveness and stuns are far more desirable qualities. In other words pvp wise it doesn't matter how many resources you use/waste to kill your enemy. Tho this is personal preference mostly.

Sage vs Demon attack speed...
HOLY COW DEMON GETS 5 APS OMGAWD ITS BETTERER!!!!

If your stuck beliveing the above statement then take time to reconsider a few things b:sweat

Sage can also get this attack speed! It just costs more money to get 4 aps base to do it. Yes this does involve using cyclone (or a genie)...a hideous waste of 2 seconds of not using normal attacks, but bear in mind sage deals more damage per hit because of the mastery, which somewhat makes up for this...in one spark with demon you use about 75 attacks, with sage you only get 65 attacks + the cyclone = about 2-3 attacks, so well just say 67 attacks as sage, each sage attack deals 3% more than a demon attack, so thats another 2 attacks. So 69 vs 75 attacks worth of damage done in a spark eruption, or exactly the same if you cyclone before the spark is done. So as demon you deal mabye 10% at the most more damage, and as sage you take 25% less damage..ill let you be the judge of what you think is better. Fairly sure someones gonna complain about this...

Bear in mind that in pvp you usually wont be using spark eruptions unless your enemy is stunlocked, or blind deaf and stupid. So either of these will rely more on base attack speed/instant buffs + cyclone to deal their attack speed over spark eruptions, in this case sage damage is superior with fists. But for the above other stated reasons I still go with demon more for pvp stuff.

I could go on all day but ill stop here. Oh and the guy above me let me borrow that flame shield...

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver · March 2010

No flames, pretty nice post. Just one point though, I've heard demon shadowless kick is only a 3 meter aoe, so its pretty useless. Otherwise I would've mentioned it in my post.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary · March 2010

3 meters is enough to hit everything immediately around you, so more useful for stuff like delta or against mobs in aoe where you have all the mobs on top of you so you can keep up a never ending aoe chain of death and destruction. So pretty much just for pure melee mobs. There is almost never a situation where casters are close enough to aoe cancel them...but pleasant if it occurs nonetheless (like aoeing wurlord in 2-x series...they all spawn on top of each other so you could cancel all of them at once).

But yeh I do prefer sage of this skill since alot of bosses hit pretty hard with cast attacks. And I could shove a coin in my keyboard, walk away, and cancel all the casts with sage. Prevents alot of charm ticking against some bosses. Like tanking 3-x series most casting bosses can insta tick your hp when they cast even if you have over 9k hp, sage of the skill prevents that from occurring. Also against bosses with annoying aoes (some like AE, emporer, illusion lord etc)...because alot of barbs dont take into account the fact as melee dd your in range of alot of aoes which can wreak havoc on your charm.

Sometimes im a bit disappointed that I do not see more people making more use of this skill in pve.

Between using this skill, and tiger leap/leap back to approach casting enemies, you can reduce the damage you take significantly. Tiger leaping into casters immediatly makes them melee you to begin with, so then you can easily cancel any magical attacks after that...if they survive long enough.

Chaira - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I'm currently building on a fist BM and read the whole thread. I want to go PvE only and am now briefly considering going sage. I also thought about using some stones with +def lvl in my armor. So how would those interact with sage spark?
I'll take a mob with 100 dmg and 75% phys reduction from armor. Then add 12 def lvl from stones and sage spark on top of it.

The dmg with sage spark would be: 25*0.75=18.75

Option 1: 25*(0.75-0.12)=15.75 dmg with spark and def lvl.
This would be if sage spark and def lvl add to the same absorb.

Option 2: 25*0.75*0.88=16.5 dmg with def lvl.
This would be if sage spark is added as and extra absorb.

Sure, the differences look minor but having already high physical and magical resistance (mainly from high refined eternal solitudes as a PvE fister has no need for high acc) and good hp from refines def lvl stones might be the way to go as sage BM in PvE.

Maybe my math is completely off here so could you please correct me if i'm wrong?

_Cristian_ - Lost City · March 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deVQyl3G6Uk

who says wr have to spark on pvp to kill any1?

skip to 0:35 and on the for wr pk

i've had a lot of experience being a wr and on pk, the bonuses dark gives are WAY better than holy, holy dragons fail horribly, like 2000 dmg over 6 seconds is going to kill any1 (reduced to like 500 dmg over 6 seconds in pvp) and dark drakeswift strike's 7.5 second stun is critical in keeping opponent in place while you dragon him and kill him

P.S. some1 PLEASE tell me the song name in that video it's killing me

runemine · March 2010

humm been wondering that to from those links sage have more damage and ele resist and demon has more phy defense and crit rate i am gonna have to flip a coin when i have to choose

EmoWDF - Harshlands · March 2010

ahem Sage still hits hard..i got 4.00 AR per sec with cyclone ...but im rerolling atm coz of demon spark, mag marrow and Roar..

Michael_Dark - Lost City · March 2010

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »

- tanking/survivability - The sage damage reduction is far more useful to tank things with, and since you can hold aggro the damage you deal isent the huge issue here (of course dealing more damage is cool, until you die because you cant survive...and then you lose all built up aggro...such a pitty).

Sage spark damage reduction is a nice benefit. However, this damage reduction is overwritten by blue bubble just as demon speed and damage by red bubble. In many of the higher level instances, you're more likely to find Regen Aura being used... Mostly when I'm tanking 3-3 or DDing in Nirvana for example. Sage turtle would be better if you plan on soloing 3-3 with bloodpaint, but I think a demon would fare better in this circumstance as well. In most cases I can think of, the demon actually wins in this department. Killing quicker in many cases does do better for you or your party than tanking longer... think of all the sleep bossese in 3-3 or the many of the boss in Nirvana for examples of what you would encounter often. I also don't see much that a sage could tank that a demon could not, mostly thinking of world bosses at this point.

Sage shadowless is also much better for canceling, completely canceling most bosses (as in hold down the hotkey and auto cancel...so awesome).

If you hadn't noticed most boss channeling is set at 15 seconds. You can't just hold the hotkey and auto cancel. At least not that I'm aware of without striking too early. Sage BM can continuously cancel, demon cannot. Unless you have a canceling skill other than Shadowless or Smack, demon will miss every 4th cancel but can resist it with hell spark. I am envious of the reduced cooldown.

- Buffs And Masteries - While the small %'s may not seem great, over time they can make quit a difference. Lets say you attack a few thousand times, now that 3% is suddenly a huge amount of damage difference. This helps with the fact you dont get attack speed as easily, since you deal more damage per hit. The squad buff helps everyone in your squad, so that obviously will make them happy, and the marrows excel in what they were made to do.

Demon mastery gives +1 crit, which you cannot easily refine or stat for. The 15% difference in base damage can more easily be compensated for... the argument is the sage can do the same to make it a moot point, but getting an extra refine, adding a few pts to strength or a higher grade shard can easily cancel this. Just as you say you can say with crafting you can add sockets but you can't change min-stats, the +1 crit would be harder to come by.

- Easy in many circumstances exhausting 3 sparks to use it are either a bad or risky idea.

Of course, you didn't mention this with sage spark why?

Anyway, good post. When I was deciding between demon and sage, everyone around me was prompting me to go sage so I could be their pocket buff-monkey. I picked demon because a BM, when I think of it is most useful for stuns and dragons, and demon definitely wins for that.

For PvP though, I don't feel there is much of a difference. Skill will play a far greater role than your cultivation.

2 demon fist BMs alternating lvl 11 dragons in a full squad is just brutal against bosses... 2 sage BMs cannot even compare, in my opinion.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · March 2010

actually most boss's attack with aoe/magic every 10 seconds.

Minimus - Sanctuary · March 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

...so I could be their pocket buff-monkey.

rofl. well said b:chuckle

TheDan - Sanctuary · March 2010

EmoWDF - Harshlands wrote: »

ahem Sage still hits hard..i got 4.00 AR per sec with cyclone ...but im rerolling atm coz of demon spark, mag marrow and Roar..

i thought about it too.. but it's not worth the cost

u may as well just buy nirvana pants to get 5.00 AR with sage

and sage mage marrows are better imo

the only thing that tempts me is demon drake bash and HF =\

Granrey - Sanctuary · March 2010

Drunken_Chu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No flames, pretty nice post. Just one point though, I've heard demon shadowless kick is only a 3 meter aoe, so its pretty useless. Otherwise I would've mentioned it in my post.

I'm sage and one of the few reasons I wanted demon was because of this feature on the shadowless kick.

Lets say you are facing 10 or more magic mobs, you start by leaping to cancell first attack, then couple of aoe skills and when they want to cast, you use shadowless to cancell them all and in case of a third attack you use roar of the pride.

Man that would be badass, I would be AOE grinding on magic mobs for sure.b:laugh

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary · March 2010

Oh with sage shadowless, I have the skill and I can just hold down the button and cancel alot of different bosses, thats why I said it was possible.

The spark comment about using 3 sparks was mostly to do with the fact a large amount of people wanting to go demon/talking about fist damage with a bm only ever talk about sparking with demon spark. Sage bms usually dont go on about using it all the time for absolutely everything, so i figured the demons specifically should know about this fact more. Realistically, the most important aspect of your attack speed is your base attack speed, not what you can get sparked. I just had to make sure people understood that most of the time sparking is not an option, of course when it is the results are awesome...but usually this is not the case. Getting tired of people talking about demon spark like its the solution to everything....

Tanking with a bm is naturally more risky than with a barb, we just have less hp than they do. I feel sage spark makes up for this more than demon does (since tanking is one of the rare instances where you spark all the time). Unless you have a bb up sage gives more room for error with the rest of the squad, then if there is serious problems you always have myriad to use as well.

The mastery deal supports the pve vs pvp thing more since in general...

Crit > pvp
Small damage increase > pve

Michael_Dark - Lost City · March 2010

Ok, not being able to use shadowless in a row like that I don't actually count the timing, except I know that polearm and wurlord both appear to have 15 second aoes... not much else that I've paid particular attention to, to be honest, since I don't have that fast cooldown.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · March 2010

its 10 second for their aoe's. Shadowless cool down is 12 seconds. If they aoe'd every 15 seconds I would be able to cancel every time. xD

Michael_Dark - Lost City · March 2010

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

its 10 second for their aoe's. Shadowless cool down is 12 seconds. If they aoe'd every 15 seconds I would be able to cancel every time. xD

Skill description says 15 second cooldown for lvl 10.

Telarith - Sanctuary · March 2010

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »

stuff

Few things I'll go over that won't interfere with my end gaming stuff:

That 3% drops to 1% when you're talking about a few thousand attacks, because then you're talking perma-spark if on bosses. And end game, there isn't many good reasons a BM shouldn't be tanking, if you want to finish bosses quickly. We can deal well over 200K damage a second on same lvl FB bosses quite easily, saving repair costs and time. What use in letting a barb tank? Best thing is have BM start tanking, unleash hell, then if needed let barb reset and grab aggro while under damage reduction skill, while BMs in group get full sparks for both. Repeat. Boss drops in no time flat.

The 3% number I pointed out a while ago was only on base str with no equipment adds, no damage buffs, no pots, and no spark. Any of those further reduces the benefits of sage fist mastery, while amplifying the gain of demon mastery. And if we see an increase in level cap? Sage mastery will be worse than demon, hands down.

Many people are also still going off the old write-up about why demon spark was better than sage spark before nirvana pants were introduced, and the change in fist chi gain. While it does improve sage spark up there, if you need to rely on the damage reduction of sage spark to survive the tanking, they probably shouldn't be tanking. Even timed well, there will still be a slight delay in getting back in sparked status, pushing it that much closer to having a spell go off before spark invincibility kicks in. To counter that would need to either have 5 APS for the extra chi to spark before it ends if needed, or a counter skill on the genie when you think it's going to hit.

Either way too risky, and other things actually make the sage spark add useless as well. So in the end, it balances out as neither celestial spark add will matter end game. Te nice thing about demon, is it will have more effect earlier on in most of the instances being run. And bloodpaint loves it more too. By the time sage reaces 5 APS, they will have spent so much money demon will already be higher refined, unless they are worried about unsparked APS as well.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Skill
Shadowless Kick Level 10
Range Melee
Mana 125.8
Channel 0.2 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds
Cooldown 12.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Fist or Claw

Granrey - Sanctuary · March 2010

I think Demon gives shadowless a shorter cooldown. I cant recall for sure.

Telarith - Sanctuary · March 2010

Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think Demon gives shadowless a shorter cooldown. I cant recall for sure.

Demon had the AoE effect, think sage is the one with 10 sec cooldown.

Sage Vs. Demon - Discuss

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