What to do with fail clerics?

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

A lot of morons dont know how to play their class at lvl 50- 60, they dont even know the basics like healing.

Ive been in parties in the past with barbs that tanks bosses in human form since they haven't learned a single tiger form skill yet at 60+. Or these lowbie clerics that refuses to heal what so ever saying they're "full attack clerics" and just thunder wields everything in fb39.

Guess the problem with "fail clerics" or "fail barbs" is that it will get party wiped lol. Clueless DD-classes wont destroy entire BH just because they're using wrong skills. Archers spamming vicious arrow and bleed arrow, wizards spamming DoT spells, venos that only has a nix and no pet for instances, will make the instance take longer and make you frustrated. But it wont cause a party wipe so you might be more lenient towards them being nubsauce.

You should really have kicked the cleric already at start when he agrod all mobs and didn't even have a weapon O_O

hehe that reminds me I was doing an fb51 once and was bored so I used lowbie hammers (had enough dex from gear not to miss everytime) since squad was full of guildies they knew I was doing it just for fun and hey I was level 80 when I did it, so doesnt always mean fail ijs, but really though, I have 2 alts I play a bit, a cleric (how the hell do people who have cleric mains deal with such morons?) and a veno (spent 150k on my magmite to get roar, god I love roar, best pet skill ever has saved morons so many times b:shocked)

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

Guess the problem with "fail clerics" or "fail barbs" is that it will get party wiped lol. Clueless DD-classes wont destroy entire BH just because they're using wrong skills. Archers spamming vicious arrow and bleed arrow, wizards spamming DoT spells, venos that only has a nix and no pet for instances, will make the instance take longer and make you frustrated. But it wont cause a party wipe so you might be more lenient towards them being nubsauce.

Well, I have seen fail venos fail pull a whole group of mobs instead of one mob, or worse, pull the boss instead of one of the adds. Pulling the boss plus all adds will often mean squad wipe.

But yeah, fail clerics and barbs are more obvious than fail other classes since the problem is usually more continuous and tends to affect the whole party, rather than a single point of failure that tends to affect only themselves.

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

A lot of morons dont know how to play their class at lvl 50- 60, they dont even know the basics like healing.

... Guess the problem with "fail clerics" or "fail barbs" is that it will get party wiped lol. Clueless DD-classes wont destroy entire BH just because they're using wrong skills.

Begging to disagree here, there are instances where some careless and ego-inflated archer steals aggro from bosses, resulting in frustrating party wipes.

There is also the case of same minded BM's who insist on tanking bosses when their HP is too low resulting here again in party wipes.

So DD classes can and will cause failed BH's as often as any cleric or barb either by their carelessness, cowboy ways or their being AFK.

ExELFine - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Begging to disagree here, there are instances where some careless and ego-inflated archer steals aggro from bosses, resulting in frustrating party wipes.

There is also the case of same minded BM's who insist on tanking bosses when their HP is too low resulting here again in party wipes.

So DD classes can and will cause failed BH's as often as any cleric or barb either by their carelessness, cowboy ways or their being AFK.

Generally, DDs can't cause party wipes. If they pull aggro, the boss kills them, then goes back to attacking the barb or veno pet. So all the DD does is get him/herself killed, the worst the party suffers is the minor inconvenience of repositioning.

One exception is if the boss has an AOE. Then an archer or wizard pulling aggro can cause the AOE to fall on people who were deliberately standing outside AOE range. A melee class like a BM or assassin pulling aggro won't cause this though, unless they panic and start to run around dragging the boss with them right to the cleric.

The only other exception I can think of is if the DD pulls aggro, then runs away from the boss right into a bunch of other mobs.

ExELFine - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Begging to disagree here, there are instances where some careless and ego-inflated archer steals aggro from bosses, resulting in frustrating party wipes.

There is also the case of same minded BM's who insist on tanking bosses when their HP is too low resulting here again in party wipes.

So DD classes can and will cause failed BH's as often as any cleric or barb either by their carelessness, cowboy ways or their being AFK.

No. You wish.

See a DD only causes a party wipe if they steal aggro, die and somehow the tank cannot take aggro back and survive. If your tank - be it a BM or barb - has survived long enough to tank before the steal, s/he should still be able to tank afterwards.

The times when this differs is then the cleric tries to resurrect the DD and the tank cannot survive without IHs for the duration of the rez. Which... in and of itself is rather fail - tanks should be able to withstand hits for a few seconds and if they can't they either aren't the best tank for that mob/boss or they seriously have something wrong, be it in gear or skills.

The other scenario is if the boss has an AoE that is particularly hard hitting and can kill squishies.

So while I do not deny that DDs can cause squad wipes, they most certainly cannot cause them as often as a bad cleric or barbarian. And that is a fact.

MrMelvin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do you think its ok for a DD such as an archer or sin to go afk while attacking then? I understand what you're saying 100% but all it takes is a string of crits to steal aggro in some cases.

Where does that even fall into the relevance of my post?

The answer is, aside from the fact it can cause a theft of aggro, it doesn't. A sin or archer going AFK can result in aggro theft, but my post was not talking about how we steal aggro, it was talking about the outcome.

So what does my opinion on whether it's okay to go AFK attacking or not matter? It has no relevance at all to the outcome of a theft of aggro whether it even causes a theft or not.

Aaragontium - Sanctuary wrote: »

I disagree. It got talked about.

Perhaps some fail cleric or potential failure will come along, see thread, and have a light go off: "gee this stuff is important". Maybe not.

Some clerics shouldn't be playing a cleric.

Or maybe new players that come along will see this thread and think "**** being a cleric if they get this much hassle" which means the number of clerics goes down even more

From a cleric in training...

One should be able to assume that higher level clerics know their stuff.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

. . . There are also occasions where some people are new at certain BH's, especially in the lower BH's (29, 39, 51), and either forget to do simple things being nervous or just don't know what they're doing. . .

So, for a 51 run the only agro should have been healing agro. You could forgive a cleric for that. If he was acting the fool, then he deserves the fools reward.

Im holding up in my 40's until I know for sure how to work in a team. I'm still getting proximity agro and heal agro.

If I'm messing up, I hope someone is going explain it to me. I've noticed a few over qualified people in BH29. Their presence is most appreciated. None are from my faction.

Sangodoc - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Uh... That would be because if the cleric dies then there is nobody to resurrect him/her (assuming s/he's the only cleric in the party), however if you die, then s/he can resurrect you.

The #1 most important to protect person in the party is the cleric (for the previously stated reason), the #2 is the main tank (because he can keep the aggro off of others and take the damage), and then everyone else. It's not "egoistic or lazy" to want to make sure that the party doesn't have to wait 5-10 minutes for the cleric to go back to town and then come all the way back (or waste 50k on a resurrection scroll) just because you want a heal first.

Seriously. Except for bosses, there's little chance that they can't finish off most mobs if you die, because by that time the mob should be nearly dead anyways. And if you are talking about a boss, when the cleric dies, it's usually followed by the tank, then everyone else. This is why the cleric healing him/herself first is probably doing his job right.

It should also be noted that spells take time to cast. The cleric may have started to heal him/herself before you tried to pull the mob off of him/her. Plenty of clerics run with bad squads too, where nobody pays attention to them except when they want heals/buffs or nobody tries to pull mobs off of the cleric when he aggros, so self-healing is a good reflex.

Obviously this is situational, it depends on how much health you and the cleric have left. If you are really low and the cleric has plenty s/he should heal you first, but if you're both low, then the cleric needs to survive more than you do. Thinking you need to survive more than the cleric is "egoistic".

You said that very well especially the no1 person in your party to protect and I agree with your post.

The funny thing is when I am out soloing questing I never die it is only in bh with a sqd as sole cleric that I might.

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

If he doesn't have purify, well, if the squad is in the mood, we'd probably ask him to get the skill and we'd wait. If not, tough luck for him. And if he doesn't want to stack IH, I'd give a warning that it's impossible to complete Wyvern with his method of heal and if he wants to stay, he'd better do it or leave on his own before we kick.

Then they wouldn't have Regen Aura or Chromatic Healing Beam and some are quiet because they might not trust the squad or are female.They might not even trust you if you ask them this.

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

I...forgot. o__o

Doesn't hurt to ask though; there were some occasions where asking questions to be sure gave the rest of the squad the idea of what we were dealing with.

I'm not too sure why trust issues come into play if the clerics in question cannot keep the party alive; they are already not too trustworthy themselves.

Edit: I do remember asking one cleric who...didn't have Purify though. That was ages ago.

That must of been FB29 as you get purify after that along with spirits gift or just being Aware of Harmany.

Edit 2: In case I'm reading it wrongly, are you saying BB/squad heals are necessary for Wyvern? My fb51 squad did it without them.

No they aren't and you don't need to BB Wyvern.

Edit 3: And wait. Did you just imply that females don't talk in squad chat?

Sometime they may not only a yes or no.

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

If he says yes to both, I'd continue:

"Can you stack heal please?"
"Can you purify when I command you to do so?"

If he says yes to both again, then it's okay. The rest of the squad probably has to depend on themselves though...

I am all for open communication before starting a run to make sure everybody is geared/skilled up and knows their role in the party. I do have a problem with your use of the word command though. There are so many reasons why a party can fail, whether it be language problems, lack of experience, lack of proper gear/skills, ego, lazyness, etc. I just think communication and respect are key to having a good result. Instead of "commanding" purify ask for it. That one word change significantly alters the intent in the other person's mind.

Instead of just complaining when people **** up offer up constructive critisism. Offer up words of support when things go well and give special thanks to folks who really did a great job or who came to help when they didn't really have to.

I am not saying that any of this would have helped the OP's situation but it couldn't hurt. Good, respectful, communication before, during and after a mission is always the best choice and I know has given me the best results. If people still don't listen, do their part or are just plain jerks then kick or leave. Nothing is worth getting all worked up about in the end.

Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »

Edit: I do remember asking one cleric who...didn't have Purify though. That was ages ago.

I haven't run into any high level clerics without Purify, but I have squadded with 6x clerics with level 1 purify (OK for dealing with poison mobs, not good when you're trying to keep a tank alive on a debuff boss (Jewelscalen, Krimson, Kong, Wyvern, the non-TT General Feng... I'm sure there's more.)

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

That must of been FB29 as you get purify after that along with spirits gift or just being Aware of Harmany.

You can get Purify before FB29, as you complete 29 culti before you can pick up your tab.

Edit 2: In case I'm reading it wrongly, are you saying BB/squad heals are necessary for Wyvern? My fb51 squad did it without them.

No they aren't and you don't need to BB Wyvern.

IH+Purify is all that's necessary to keep the tank alive (I remember FB51s with no one that could BB and lowish clerics who couldn't outrange the AOE, had to use chain of clerics to keep the main healer alive.) BB alone sometimes isn't enough to keep the tank alive on Wyvern through the increased damage curse (I've seen low 50s barbs die in BB, and my BM (high 60s at the time) died just as Wyvern was killed the first time she tanked him in BB.) That said, if there are people who will have trouble surviving the AOE and can't outrange it (arcane tabbers, assassins), having BB up will allow them to participate (same goes for Farren by the way.)

Firstly in realtion to the original topic about the fail cleric: I have made the following error myself:

I put my weapon into my inventory so I can attack the pillars and get chi, then I take off without weapon re-equipped. This is another way the cleric may forget their weapon. Please point in out to your cleric if this happens. (havent killed anyone as a result yet)

In relation to the idea that the cleric just took off and aggro'd the mob. I have this with other players of all classes. My primary goal is keeping myself alive. If you take off and get in BIG trouble, I'm happy to watch you get yourself killed. This wasnt always the case and I died many times trying to save a bad situation. If you have some clown doing this and NOT listening to advice, let him die, the lesson will be learnt quick enough.

Any class can stuff up. Watch what your other players are doing. Stop rushing ahead all you barb's, us clerics run slower. I dont know the answer to all the archers and wizards stealing aggro, I just heal as fast as I can.....

Listen to the advice of higher level players. By NOT rushing ahead, you give a player a chance to actually give you some advice. I did FB29 yesterday and two people died near the guard!!! The tank was rushing in killing everything that moved while I'm typing for him to just stop and get out of the way (I've solo'd Qingzi a few times now but jees you cant do miracles with some people) I quit an FB 51 recently after I got killed twice trying to compensate for the clowns all aggroing whatever they could ....

Someone earlier typed about not leveling their cleric etc. I dont know about other characters but I seriously believe that power levelling a cleric is terrible. We are almost, two separate players in one - dd or heal, and both streams require heaps of sp and money to level. I have now stayed at level 79 for a few weeks, levelling my genie with excess XP and am slowly getting skills upgraded by grinding for money and doing dailies for SP. I feel much more confident in the situation I am now in - what a stress release purify 10 is!!!, indivual buffs, sirens kiss, razorfeathers, wield thunder, tempest are all level 10.
In a few more weeks my squad heals will be 10 as well. I wont feel like such a fail cleric in the 80's.

Another person (might have been the same one) typed about getting aggro. Practise dude - when a mob is going towards a player (but has not been attacked by that player) and you heal slightly too early, the mob will attack you. Read all the cleric guides. If you draw aggro, run TOWARDS anther char who can get aggro back off you. Thats it for now.