You honestly expect me to do one at a time...?

Yanami - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Long story short: I am irritated with people who are controlling in parties and throw a hissy fit when you do something that they think is going to harm them. =| Irritated when people scream at clerics to heal them when they rushed off ahead leaving the cleric behind. Irritated at people who use their char at minimal capabilities and still expect everyone else to follow them. >_> Pretty much.

Way earlier this morning, I was on my assassin seeking help to get Qianji from Valley of Disaster or whatever. I got lucky to find a BH squad who took me in even though I was 20 levels under them.

Party seemed to consist of nice people. I never did a BH in the 59 instance before, but I either did use to do it wined on my veno or just plow right through it without wine because I can handle the mobs just fine...they hardly nick my veno except the physical mobs, ofc. But I have a pet for those. But yeah, anyway, I will say I did learn a few shortcuts around things and while it is interesting, I'd much rather not take risks and let things sit around alive.

Well, we killed Qianji just fine with only two casualties (someone aggroed some mobs and cleric got owned and I got owned from trying to play hero, which is also my precise reasoning to not leave anything alive). After that was done, I offered to them that I could get out my veno and help finish their BH, and they agreed.

The party reformed and we go in. We had to go to Zimo next. Cool, np. We start at the entrance and all the things aggroed. Instantly, everyone tackled them all down. Woot.

Barb says that maybe we should just do one group at a time. Okk, sure. Even though that was a group of mobs we just cleared.

We go on through the path to Zimo and there's those two weird looking things and the chick. One guy lures the chick thing with a sword with the genie. In my head I figured, okay, while they kill that one off, I'll go ahead and go after the other. Well as soon as I started at it, the two things started moving, naturally. I let my pet go after one while I grabbed aggro of the second. No problem, right?

Barb threw a fit. Asked why the guy pulled one and "the veno pulled the other." One thing that irritates me is when I'm in a party and someone calls me "veno" when my IGN is clearly there (and I'm using the names Barb/guy in this post to abide by forum rules and not namedrop). Just a pet peeve. Anyway, he threw a fit and I told him my intentions were to clear out the two mobs while it was quite obvious they were doing fine with just that one.

=| Yeah. I've never seen someone get so hyped up about someone getting ahead. He said I should've just focused on that one then go after the other two with the others. Really? Honestly? I know how to play my character, I know what kind of hits she can take and what she can't handle. My intentions was to help push the squad through and get their BH done quicker...not take down things one at a time and spend eternity in an instance.

That wasn't the only thing that irked me. He rushed ahead and screamed at the cleric to heal him...

It doesn't help when barb can run faster than a cleric and that the barb went ahead, knowing that he wants heals...and if you want heals, you better wait for your cleric to catch up...that is, unless you're sure that you will be fine and won't be capslocking "HEAL ME DAMMIT!!11!11" =|

Are people really like this? So controlling and specific to how exactly everything must be done? I will be sure that I won't be helping, nor partying with this barb ever again. If he can't handle several mobs at a time in an instance that he's 20 levels over while trying to bark orders at everyone when he can't even do the things he could actually be capable of...then I think there is something wrong.

/rant

I'm irritated.

Yanami - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Nice to know you've learned something else to say. Please kindly head towards off a cliff with the rest of the bandwagon that use that jargon. Then I'll "Qqmoreplx" for you at your funeral.

Anyway, if anyone else has something to say that's not in relation to the thread, please take it somewhere else and stay out of this one. =| I will gladly guide your meaningless posts to someone to remove them or do something...but I think it would be nice if you save moderators the trouble of doing that job.

Edit: And I know in my previous post I said to say it, to just say it, but now, two posts already with ridiculous ****? Really now?

aryannamage · March 2010

Either be constructive in your post or don't post at all. Will be removing the spam, that is not how you bring up your postcount.

VerenKaunis - Dreamweaver · March 2010

cool story bro
QQmoar
b:avoid

OK, now that that's out of the way...

Should have just booted the barb if he was being an idiot (unless he was the leader, then you're kinda ****ed there b:surrender). Also, from my understanding, you didn't need to help them with their BH. While it was nice of you to stick around on your veno after they helped your sin, it really wasn't necessary on your part so you could have left at any time.

Anyway, fail squad/player threads are coming up on a daily basis now so most people have just begun to ignore them. Word of advice, this won't be the last time you'll meet some dumbass so you'll have to either learn to live with it or just avoid them. =/

MANray_ - Sanctuary · March 2010

I'll agree that a veno pulling a 2nd mob while the squad safely deals with the first one is effective and playing your class right. However, it's a Barb (if acting as main tank) who calls the shots regarding the pace at which a squad should advance.

It can often be frustrating if you have a fail barb leading, but it really is best for the squad. The problem with your breaking rank you yourself described, barb got scared and made a stupid choice. This could've meant a wipe. A veno should only take the initiative regarding advancing when pulling is a necessity and a squad is taking mobs one at a time. We may replace the main tank as the informal squad leader while doing such jobs. Otherwise the guy taking the hits calls the shots. Only Clerics can overrule and if you think they should, the thing is to PM them and ask them to.

When playing with new people i'll start by playing as efficiently as i can without taking on more than i can handle myself. If barb is good he'll soon team up with you which means both will improve the squad's work. If you realize that he won't play ball you should adjust and follow his lead. Even if you doubt his skills the squad is better off with you following his pace and being ready to mop up whatever mistakes will be made, instead of having you go rogue and add risk to an already uncertain situation.

So yes, you made as much a mistake as the Barb did and i would honestly expect you to know better.

Think of it in terms of a small military unit. Barb is sergeant, he leads the squad. Cleric is the officer, he can order the sergeant anytime he wants but should mostly trust his judgement in tactical. Veno is a specialist, like a sniper. Specialists do their job when called for and should get the last say on their area of expertise, but should otherwise follow orders and help the squad complete it's mission. Even if they think they could do a better job.

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2010

that is always going to happen. as you do more BHs with random squads, you're going to run into someone disagreable. anyways, if you're going to do anything unexpected, say that you'll be pulling a 2nd mob. people don't like unexpected, they misunderstand and sometimes think you screwed up.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Just have to say, I too really hate it when people run ahead and expect the cleric to be right there with them to heal. It is not always barbs, though most often them because they run twice as fast as clerics. But I have also had cases where I am picking up drops from a boss and others run off, then I see health bars dropping and have demands to heal before I am anywhere near them.

When I am not playing my cleric, I am always paying attention to where the cleric is in my squad. When I play my barb, I purposely stop before any mobs and wait until the cleric catches up before I attack. This is just common courtesy; I know a lot of barbs will say "it doesn't matter, I have a charm" but sometimes it does matter to the cleric. The game may have given you the gift of speed but just remember that it also gave clerics the curse of slowness, and all we want is a little patience.

jaeseu · March 2010

First off, thank you aryannamage, for clearing some things up. I really appreciate it.

VerenKaunis: He wasn't the leader. And I know I didn't have to help them or whatever and could leave at any time, but there would just be that guilty feeling in my gut that I left them alone after offering to give them a hand.

MANray_: Lately the old 'veno job' is fading into the background...who the heck lures now? Genies do. In the beginning of the run *Qianji or whatever*, they were discussing about having a veno for luring. The only time I ever lured was the last two BH bosses and the one guy just used his genie for mobs rest of the time =|. Also, I've never been in a squad where a barb made all the shots in how to do anything. I've always been with people where maybe someone does one thing, some people go after that and I would go after something else and one or two people follow. But you know, it's rather frustrating to have barb, or really anyone, to tell you what to do when you're nearly 30 levels (and 10~20 above squad) above the mobs, thinking that you can't handle them. We did fine taking on that four at start...so what more difference is it going to be while they take one and I take two? Also, I'd like to mention everyone was taking hits...so who calls the shot then? And final thing, if me going "rogue" at picking a couple of mobs was dangerous, then what about all those other mobs we had to dodge at barb's request? If it was my choice, I would've cleared everything out of the way. Edit: I'm not trying to sound mean or anything, and I do see it from your point of view though, but I'm just trying to stress points.

Quilue: I guess so. But it's just so frustrating as this was like the first time I had to deal with something like this. =|

Devinettie - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Oh were to begin... Being in many BH's and many FB's I found the tank doesn't always know what he or she is doing and that results in the Barb blaming the cleric for not healing or the veno or who ever for pulling wrong...

The whole Barb is leader stuff? Ha.. The most experienced player should be the one in charge.. the one who KNOWS what they are doing. I mean I don't follow Barbs that run ahead.. I don't follow Sins that think they can tank... Even more so on my cleric.. with my cleric you kill me once.. you get me killed twice.. then its MY way or I leave. Sure I can't follow that on my Veno.. Because my Veno is suicidal b:chuckle, but I will not stay in a party with a Barb who thinks he's all that and thinks its his way.. is the only way...

It just bugs me that a barb just because they take the damage.. they HAVE to lead.. its not true and it also bugs me.. which I am guilty of its the cleric deal.. b:surrender but.. I only do that.. when the tank gets me killed twice because of his actions...

I love helping ppl with Bh's even when I don't need them.. I do it all the time but I will not put up with one person thinking... Its my way and only my way right off the bat.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · March 2010

jaeseu wrote: »

MANray_: Lately the old 'veno job' is fading into the background...who the heck lures now? Genies do. In the beginning of the run *Qianji or whatever*, they were discussing about having a veno for luring. The only time I ever lured was the last two BH bosses and the one guy just used his genie for mobs rest of the time =|. Also, I've never been in a squad where a barb made all the shots in how to do anything. I've always been with people where maybe someone does one thing, some people go after that and I would go after something else and one or two people follow. But you know, it's rather frustrating to have barb, or really anyone, to tell you what to do when you're nearly 30 levels (and 10~20 above squad) above the mobs, thinking that you can't handle them. We did fine taking on that four at start...so what more difference is it going to be while they take one and I take two? Also, I'd like to mention everyone was taking hits...so who calls the shot then? And final thing, if me going "rogue" at picking a couple of mobs was dangerous, then what about all those other mobs we had to dodge at barb's request? If it was my choice, I would've cleared everything out of the way. Edit: I'm not trying to sound mean or anything, and I do see it from your point of view though, but I'm just trying to stress points.

Yes, anyone can pull now but venos are still the best choice as pets have a larger range than genies and can do it more safely. Most squads are content to let me handle the job either out of practicality or courtesy. Fools that run ahead to try and pull before the Veno gets a chance to usually get what's coming to them sooner or later.

And a Barb's leadership is informal, i didn't mean for you to take it literal. Barb goes ahead, he makes the call of which mobs he'll take on and how many. If he tells you to back off or slow down then you should. Since a Barb knows better what he can take on it's his call wether he'll be taking on 3-4 mobs at once or wether they should be pulled. Cleric overrules because he knows how much healing he can handle and may have to back off because of heal aggro. Capisce?

Think you can do better? Then stick to playing Barb or Cleric. And if you're playing with lower levels you should follow their lead unless you're doing the heavy tanking. Can't tell you how many times i've seen lowbies wipe because of arrogant higher levels...

And if everyone was taking hits then the squad was out of control. Having 3-4 people that can handle mobs without heals is a different scenario than regular squad work. Only Barb and maybe Veno or BM should be tanking mobs under normal circumstances.

And as for skipping mobs, once again, it was the Barb's call to make. I personally like to save time and only like clearing everything if i'm with a weak squad. It comes down to respect, every class has a role and every player has a way of doing things. If you want things done your way everytime, then you're dangerous to squad with. Adaptability is essential for every class. If you can't respect someone else's leadership it probably means you can't lead yourself.

The only point you're stressing is the Barb was wrong and you were right. Sorry, forums are not here to validate your feelings.

jaeseu · March 2010

You're not getting my point. He wants to take on one, fine. But I'll go on ahead AFTER he takes that one, grab aggro whatever, since I know I can take on the mobs myself without problems or complications to help speed things up. IF people decide to come ahead with me, fine. If barb wants to try to take aggro of things I am killing quite easily then that's his problem. Why try to save someone that's clearly a higher level, doing fine, knows what they're doing, whatever? If they wanted me to pull something fine, I'll pull it for them the continue to be on my merry way if I'm not tanking (Only, I wasn't luring, that one guy was.).

I have a cleric that I have had for awhile, leveled it up to 7x then stopped because I was tired of people nagging me for help every two seconds and because I was tired of the costs it was eating up.

My boyfriend has a barb, same level as my veno and he lets me play it and I do perfectly fine on it.

And just because you've been/seen squads with lowbies who been with 'arrogant higher levels' doesn't mean everyone is like that. Besides, what about the lowbies that act arrogant, hmm?

Also, I've never said everything had to be done my way. In this run it was actually everything the barb wanted. Skipping mobs that are dangerously close, ended up doing one vs. squad for mobs, pulled the boss when he asked. -Everything was adjusted for him.-

Anyway, I've got to go. No more time to type. =|

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

that is always going to happen. as you do more BHs with random squads, you're going to run into someone disagreable. anyways, if you're going to do anything unexpected, say that you'll be pulling a 2nd mob. people don't like unexpected, they misunderstand and sometimes think you screwed up.

This.

Going off on your own if you can handle yourself is fine (assuming the rest of the squad is healthy). But announcing intent is always recommended. You may know what you can handle, but if the rest of the squad is unaware then it becomes your bad when they try to jump in to save you unnecessarily.

And before the whole 'higher level' argument comes into play...if there are 8x Clerics that can die to Qingzi, 7x/8x Venos that can cause a squad wipe at Farren, Higher level barbs and BMs that can drop in an FB19...etc etc...it's not an impossibility that you'd die in a 59.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just have to say, I too really hate it when people run ahead and expect the cleric to be right there with them to heal. It is not always barbs, though most often them because they run twice as fast as clerics. But I have also had cases where I am picking up drops from a boss and others run off, then I see health bars dropping and have demands to heal before I am anywhere near them.

Fast characters should stay behind to pick up drops. Slow characters should get started moving to the next mob/boss. Having the cleric pick up drops is highly inefficient. If the group has a barb and veno, one of those two should usually stick around to pick up drops. The other should move on ahead to tank the next mob.

jaeseu wrote: »

You're not getting my point. He wants to take on one, fine. But I'll go on ahead AFTER he takes that one, grab aggro whatever, since I know I can take on the mobs myself without problems or complications to help speed things up.

Having people wait is inefficient. Waiting for lures, waiting for mobs to wander to the right position, waiting for slow characters to catch up, etc. The ideal case is to have the second mob to fight ready and positioned just as the group kills the first mob. Then everyone can run right to the second mob and start killing it immediately without any waiting. I try to time my pulls so the next mob arrives just as the first one dies.

Forcing everyone to stay and fight each individual mob until it's dead is a needless waste of time.

Nakhimov - Lost City · March 2010

I have a list. It sits next to my computer, and on that list are people I've run instances with. People who **** up terribly, or people who don't know what to do and won't listen. If I join a squad, and they're in there, right click portrait, leave squad.

Saves me lots of pain in the long run.

mngirl · March 2010

Yanami - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Long story short: ....

One thing that irritates me is when I'm in a party and someone calls me "veno" when my IGN is clearly there (and I'm using the names Barb/guy in this post to abide by forum rules and not namedrop). Just a pet peeve.

That wasn't the only thing that irked me. He rushed ahead and screamed at the cleric to heal him...

Your post made me laugh at first, only because of how you started it, then seeing it was actually a pretty long post.

But I agree with you, I play a cleric and I get really tired of being called "cleric" when I have a name. We all picked names when we made our chars, it's really not that hard for people to use them. I'm also not crazy about being told to heal, I've been known to say (as politely as I can) "I know how to do my job" and usually that shuts them up, but not always. Sometimes they think I'm being all pissy when I say that but I've been playing the class for 2 yrs and I know what to do, when, how, etc. Maybe they're used to working with bad clerics but I don't tell them how to do their job and they shouldn't tell me how to do mine. I was talking to a lvl 89 barb friend earlier who told me he's trying to get good enough to not need 2 clerics in fb69 and some other things, I said wow, you're working with the wrong clerics if you need 2 in those situations, call me instead. So yeah, I know how to play my class and get annoyed when I'm told to "heal". b:chuckle

As for the running ahead - yep that drives me nuts too. I had to add the fairy speed boost skill and even have to use speed pots sometimes to try to keep up. If they continue running ahead I start running at normal speed, if they die, maybe they'll stop that annoying behavior. If it doesn't stop them at least it makes me laugh if they die from being stupid.

XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I agree it gets annoying when you get called by your class, but I'll say one thing about it: much less confusion to who you're talking... I don't do it often. And when I do, it's mostly me talking about my cleric or my BM.

I'm also tired of people who expect me to take it much slower because I'm a high-level in a low-level party. If I'm in your party, chances are you needed help at first. I'll happily provide instructions, I'll stop every now and then to let people know what I'm about to do, why I do it and what would normally be done with a full lower-leveled squad... just don't expect me, as a 91 BM, to stand back and aggro mob after mob in FB39. Actually, anything lower than FB79 (79 'cause they run)... as long as it doesn't run around.

Example: the buncha trees in FB69 202020. If it's in my AOE range and won't move, it's gonna be AOEd. If I can round them up, and they won't run... gonna be AOEd. I'll explain you might want to let the veno pull, or someone with genie, 'cause they hurt pretty bad, or if you have a bunch of BMs, just stack IH on one, let him go ahead, and have both chain stun.

I know my limits. I know I can't take too many magic mobs without getting down to 50% health. If I have to, I might ask for IH before, or I'll make sure my healing skills are ready to be used.

As a cleric, I'm seriously not afraid to stack a couple IHs on whatever's tanking, and hit a mob - hell, tank one as well. Applies to 59 more than anything ATM, it's what I run a lot on my cleric.

_River - Heavens Tear · March 2010

I've run into similar situations on my cleric in BHs. One of my guildies asked me to come along on my cleric to help out cause they needed a 2nd cleric. So off I went. I didn't think anything of it when i got in squad except for some names I knew would be trouble.

The trouble started when they wouldn't wait for the clerics. One archer started to boss us 2 clerics around. "Stand here" "Move back" "HEAL THE DAMN TANK" (BH69 on pole. tank was a BM but clearly not a tank build).

My reply, after the bm tank died "You want us to move or heal? We can't do both" To which earned me some glares and angry remarks from the archers and the blademaster that was tanking. Both clerics, after having listened to the archer tell us to move, were out of purify range. Blademaster was 3-4 shotted with debuff. I admit it was our fault for listening to an archer tell us where to stand... But it doesn't give him the right to order us around. Both of us clerics knew what to do already, having done this BH several times before.

Then also after the bm tank died, the archer pulled and ran. Then expected us to heal him after he ran... My reply "Stop running so I can heal you" To which I got more nasty remarks. Naturally though cause he was tanking the boss lol.

2nd blademaster (80 something) pulled aggro after the archer died, and though still not a tank build, ended up tanking much better than the 90x blademaster. (Please note the names were kept out of here due to the Forums rules).

As others have said, its bound to happen a lot. I've done so many awful BHs with people that got my cleric killed because of stupidity/bossing around, you name it. As my friends know, I don't carry angels, but I don't give a rip if I die cause as a cleric I know its bound to happen.

Since I dislike this type of stuff however, I've decided to do my cleric's BHs ONLY with people I trust. Lately, its Signako tanking all of them for me. Its easy and we finish quicker than if we had a squad IMO. Cause in a squad it takes time to get everyone on the same page. Whereas since Signako and I are married IRL and we can talk freely to each other since our computers are right next to each other, its much easier to go through all of these and take little casualties. The only other people I go onto a BH with are those closest to me and my cleric. It saves on headaches and definitely on the deaths.

As for people running ahead and leaving clerics behind, when I'm teamed with people on my veno, I will do my best to NEVER leave the cleric alone. Even if they tell me to go on. They are the healer of the party and if they want to stay back and collect coins, I'm going to stay there with them. My choice I know. Its one reason I sacrifice a lot. If I can pull it from a cleric to save them, I will do it.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · March 2010

The other chars you see in this game are actually other people.

The things you do in squad effect *them*, as they are playing their game as well.

Kind of like how when you cut in front of others in traffic, p*sses them off. They are actual people, and they actually care what you do , if it effects them.

If you don't like the people that populate the game you play in, then don't play it anymore.

Here's hoping we never have a reason to encounter one another in this game, being that we're on the same server.

RedMenace

\no snark included, i meant *everything* i said
\\you must have a head like a carnival float, to support an ego that large

jaeseu · March 2010

Thank you, a few of you stated what I was trying to get out much better than I was doing and I hope it gives a better understanding to some people who seem to just not get it.

RedMenace: I don't know who you're referring to in your post but assuming it was to me, I don't know how anything I'm saying is trying to show that I'm an airhead full of nothing but ego. I am fully aware that there are other real people playing behind the characters, but are those people also aware? (While I'm at it, I really don't see how the traffic thing relates.)

And honestly, I love majority of the people I meet and hang out with ingame...they are one of the reasons why I'm here. There are a handful of *******s on WC but I simply just blacklist them and it solves my problem and I'm not going to quit the game just for a few bad apples. But you know, you saying just leave the game for some bad population is like saying you hate Earth and the people that exist on it so you should move to a different planet. It's unrealistic.

Anyway, as for not encountering each other, whatever, lol. If it happens it happens, if not, then it's also okay. It's not affecting my RL.

Vorawrcious - Harshlands · March 2010

Maybe the barb over-reacted, but sounds like the OP veno was definitely trying to be a hot shot. Look how awesome i am taking on these 2 mobs. I dont see how you preoccuping 2 mobs with your pet will be quicker than killing the one lured mob first and then all rushing the remaining mobs. Once a squad decides to lure one mob, the conveintual wisdom is to all gang said mob, til dead, then move to rest. You obviously stepped out of the norm.

I remember one spot on the way to zimo that is a bit tricky, i think it right at the beginning of passage. If you rush in and attack mobs they run up the walls and it can be a big mess if squads not ready for it. Seems they were just trying to play it say in that area and you decided to do your own thing regardless.

Might help to know what level your veno is and others in the party. If you all like very low 70's than i make sense to play it safe. if you veno is 80+ with other members being in the high 70s, by all means, should be taking on all 3 mobs in group at once.

If barb was barking out HEAL, HEAL and the rest i agree he might be a jerk. That is never neccesary. I remember going with anohter barb on a BH and every 2 minutes he would yell, " HEAH, HEAL, ****ing dont let my charm tick dammit." or something of that nature. It seems he just wanted to be a domineering jerk and yell commands at others since he didnt even need to tank if he was so worried about his charm.

jaeseu · March 2010

By all means that I'm not trying to sound like a hotshot, I was just trying to push the squad forward a little faster while they were working on something else. I just think it's a waste of time to pull one thing at a time in a lower level instance just to gank it when I'm 89 and the rest of the squad is 71-79, y'know? If it was a higher level instance then yeah, I wouldn't try to do the same thing because I know then that's pretty stupid.

XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver · March 2010

jaeseu wrote: »

By all means that I'm not trying to sound like a hotshot, I was just trying to push the squad forward a little faster while they were working on something else. I just think it's a waste of time to pull one thing at a time in a lower level instance just to gank it when I'm 89 and the rest of the squad is 71-79, y'know? If it was a higher level instance then yeah, I wouldn't try to do the same thing because I know then that's pretty stupid.

TBH, I think so too... especially when you have the actual means to do it. Why making it longer when you can make it shorter? If your squad already knows what they're doing anyways... else yeah, I may take my time a little to stop and explain stuff a bit.

I was in a BH59 where we did that... and of course the barb in the team yelled at me for killing extra mobs I've previously died on, or had people die on a lot. I only have one rule in BHs: if it's unwined, and there's mobs that get in our way eventually, they're gonna die. I'm willing to take an additional 30 seconds and kill a couple extra mobs, than having cleric map out and lose exp to res the bunch that's dead. That 30 seconds is gonna turn out to be a lot more at times.

BTW the full story behind my example is that we had 2 healers in the party; I can solo kill mobs in 59, so I generally don't wait - if they're on a mob or two, with 2 healers and a barb, and 2 venos... they're fine. So I kept killing a couple mobs ahead of them, which most teams seem to have nothing against as it makes the run faster.

You honestly expect me to do one at a time...?

Comments

Categories