Restoring Balance to the Game

MANray_ - Sanctuary · March 2010

Lately i've been preocupied with the impact the development of certain game features has had on our comunity. These are a few ideas of what i would consider to be relatively minor adjustments that could greatly improve the current state of things. Now, i realize it's developers and not GMs which should handle changes like the ones i'm proposing and have only the intent to help improve the game. I did not post this on the suggestion forums since i feel this is something that should be backed by at least a significant part of the forum comunity, and realize discussion is the only way to improve what feedback we can give to PWI.

I would like to make it clear that although i myself consider the Tideborn classes to be unbalanced, i will not be addressing said issue on this thread.

1. There should only be one Bounty Hunter quest available per day. The effect faster leveling has had on the game has been disastrous from a player's point of view, as it has allowed people to reach higher levels having entirely bypassed the game's learning curve. It has also impacted the player economy as it's made grinding/questing obsolete and has made activities other than running fb instances (such as open world pvp or mat farming runs) suffer because of the overwhelming amount of time it requires from players. As it was first implemented the quest did allow for a leveling pace more in line with the taste of western gamers and benefited the comunity. As it stands now it's outright become noxious. With esoterica and hyper xp available at the boutique there really is no need to unbalance the game with this feature.

2. The channeling on Wizard's Morning Dew skill should be reduced. The introduction of new DD classes had an unbalancing effect on the ratio of classes relative to one another. With only one healer class available group content has become more difficult to access for the majority of players. As things stand now, a Wizard can only manage a heal every 5.7 seconds, reducing that time in half (while somewhat reducing the heal to bring it on par with Cleric heals) would allow the class to stand in for Cleric in much the same way BMs can take the place of Barbs. This would in no mean affect the Cleric's standing as the foremost healing class in the game, as it would still posses a good range of better and more reliable heals, but also effective buffs and skills like Revive and Purify.

3. One Man Army quests should provide a coin reward. This game was designed mostly around the concept of grinding which has now been all but abandoned as uneffective. OMAs providing an incentive would greatly help to repopulate areas of the open world, improving game elements such as PvP. It would also help somewhat offset the heavy bias towards CS use that has damaged the game. I would propose a reward proportional to level times one thousand coins per quest (thus an OMA for lvl 34 mobs would pay 34k, while one for lvl 79 mobs 79K). While this would impact gold prices in some proportion, the effect would be somewhat offset because prices of the npc economy would become more advantageous and encourage spending on coin sinks.

I think that balance is an important issue in a competitive environment. I think small changes can greatly enhance the game experience to the benefit of both PWI's legitimate revenue and our comunity's well being.

Quilue - Sanctuary · March 2010

There's hyper exp already, BH or not people level fast anyway. how's 95-100 in less than 2 weeks sound? It's not BH that makes that possible it's hyper exp. Even before BH people leveled on Rebirth and even before that, cube + cs + wq = 1mil+ exp a day at 9x anyway

you can't say it makes other activities suffer, because people just don't need to do BH if they want to do something else. BH requiring overwhelming amount of time? that's laughable. back before Rebirth was figured out people spent hours squad grinding on an eso. 8 hours a day just to gain like 20% exp. if someone wants to level they're going to level and not do anything else; if someone wants to farm they can give up BH for a day just as they gave up joining a grinding squad for a day back in the days.

Boozin - Sanctuary · March 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

The effect faster leveling has had on the game has been disastrous from a player's point of view, as it has allowed people to reach higher levels having entirely bypassed the game's learning curve. It has also impacted the player economy as it's made grinding/questing obsolete and has made activities other than running fb instances (such as open world pvp or mat farming runs) suffer because of the overwhelming amount of time it requires from players.

There is no question that the access to easy exp has allowed many people to reach higher levels they would have been able to otherwise. I don't know if I would say its disastrous .... at least not from this players point of view.

It doesn't bother me at all that suddenly there is tons of people 9x+. I am still running instances with the same people I was before. I personally don't feel the need to complete 3 bh's a day just because they are there. I don't party with a random squad just to get em done. I simply wait until the people I know how to work with are free and away we go. I am not in a rush for exp. and thus the amount of bh's hasn't effect my game play at all. I might get 3 done one day and maybe only 3 done the next week. Who cares if there are 10,000 fail 9x+ running around... I don't squad with them... hell, I don't even notice they are there.

As to the idea that grinding has suffered? Again, might just be me, but heck, anywhere I go to kill a pile of mobs to complete a quest, 9 times out of 10 I am the only one around.. GOOD.. no interference and all the mats I can farm are just sitting there waiting for me to farm. Gotta love it.

So, while there seems to have been a negative impact for alot of people with the free exp they hand out these days, no one says you MUST do these daily quest.. no one says you MUST squad with all the supposed fail high lvl players that are suddenly everywhere... so personally I don't think it needs to effect your game play unless you let it... and if you do, it would seem you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction. b:surrender

Mrvate - Heavens Tear · March 2010

This is my semi-quazy agreement to what you said. I do think they need to take out stuff that helps people lvl so fast. I think hyper stones power lvl people more then bh does though. But in my own interest I would love bh to go back to once per day since as it is now, bh is really annoying. but yes something needs to be taken out to slow down some of the lvling.

On wizards heal. It's actually one of the strongest heals in the game. so if you cut the casting in half I think the spell str should also be cut in half. right now the only way a wizzie can out heal a cleric is with sutra heal. Which I don't think they should be able to do, since they out dd clerics, clerics should out heal them. but yes on off healing class would be very nice, and I think it should go to wizzies since they were rare and now rarer cuz of psys.

And yeah, on 1 man armies the rep reward and celestone fragment is nothing. and regular grinding has become outdated. I think it'd be good if a decent reward for 1man armies was put in place. only problem that I do see with it, is the fact that I think there is too much coin in game as is. But even with that I think coin reward would still be good.

Euphy - Dreamweaver · March 2010

I agree that One Man Armies need an update... I'm mean seriously... No matter how high you get its still 1 reputation point for 20 monsters, and eventually you only get a cele. frag. for every 60! The drop rate for high level players is pretty bad to be honest, so no drops during the 60-mob grind don't cut it. Half or more goes to my repair fees, which as a cleric are relatively low. Do barbarians (with low melee damage output) make any profit? Adding a coin reward or perhaps replacing the cele. fragment with a mirage stone might make a world of difference.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · March 2010

1) Agreed. Having 1 BH a day is pretty acceptable. Having a chain of 3 is just insane, especially if you've had to go through fb59-79 and go through them in some specific order to maximize your wine costs... leave instance to port back in so you can kill your next BH boss.... I'm so glad I never had to do this, and on a daily basis no less.

2) Disagree. You're on a PvE server. This would totally unbalance things even further. Wizards would be even more overpowered with the ability to fully heal themselves quickly in PvP. Might as well just give BM and WB magic ulti attacks to further 'balance' these classes.

3) Agreed. ALL quests should have increased EXP and rewards. 1 random celestone? Come on... Even 9x quests, while sometimes generous on rep, still only give 1 celestone or celestone fragment. This is just ridiculous.

They really need to bring the PvE back into the game, and keep them from staying perched on the Arch center platform all day begging for BH parties.

Collapse - Harshlands · March 2010

its been pretty clear to most of us since the blatant unwillingness to even ACKNOWLEDGE the Phoenix Flesh Ream Bug, let alone fix it, that the GMs/Devs dont give 2 flying facks about balance in this game .

Instructo - Lost City · March 2010

Collapse - Harshlands wrote: »

its been pretty clear to most of us since the blatant unwillingness to even ACKNOWLEDGE the Phoenix Flesh Ream Bug, let alone fix it, that the GMs/Devs dont give 2 flying facks about balance in this game .

It's not a bug, it's a feature. Rumor had it that it *was* fixed on the CN server, apparently, and after two weeks there were so many venos complaining that it was put back in. This *bug* will never be fixed. Ever. Every veno would complain.

Rillien - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Before the nix talk takes over the thread,

I agree the most with your third point. I would rarely go out of my way to grind OMAs unless I had a quest that required the same mobs, simply because of the reward. I really like the suggestion of giving a mirage instead of a cele fragment, as I feel that mirages have become increasingly important with the rise of D.orb prices. Back when D.orbs were only 20k during sale times, mirages were ~20k and it made no sense to refine with them...now they matter [to me] a lot more.

One thing that has become completely obsolete are the Justice Orders. I think if they combined the two concepts of OMA and JO it would be nice...make an order quest that is free to obtain, but gives you a small additional exp reward, some rep (more for higher levels would be nice) and something like a mirage cele. I think coins would tend to increase inflation..I'd rather have a better item reward.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · March 2010

Thank you all for your replies, both for and against.

1. Yes, Bh quests are certainly optional, but MMOs are based on the concept of character progression, which makes it difficult for your average player to fully realize the dangers of fast leveling. Trying to gauge this using forums, i've found significantly more complaints about bad players since triple BHs and this does correspond to my own experience, especially from the vantage point of having been level capped for a while now. It's not just that my enjoyment of the game has suffered because of the unexperience or attitudes of people i PUG with (one of the things i like about MMOs and would not want to give up) but that a mechanic (leveling) so important in a competitive environment feels cheapened. At this point i really don't mind about people that use the cash shop to gain this advantage, their investment does give them some incentive towards learning their class. I think in the end this shortens the cycle in the game of many other players, and makes their stay less pleasant for both them and those of us comitted to a longer term.

2. Yes, as i pointed in my first post i do think the Wiz heal should be downgraded if the channeling is shortened. I understand this may bring some balance issues in PvP, but bringing the skill on line with what Clerics can accomplish leaves Wizzards in the same dilema Clerics face. Stop attacking to heal yourself also means giving the other guy a break, and a chance to set up something nasty. Morning Dew is not HoT so classes that can stun or one shot Wizzies would be at an advantage.

3. Yes, inflation is a consideration for coin rewards. I don't think people will be taking to grinding in large numbers for rewards like the ones i or other posters have suggested however, and do believe as i first stated that the incentive to buy goods/services from npcs will be increased somewhat balancing the measure. I don't believe further xp gains would be appropiate given that the leveling pace is itself a problem.

Thanks again for your replies and please feel free to further improve my suggestions with your own ideas, if a better solution to any of the issues i addressed does come up and receives support i'll update my opening post to reflect this.

Pressa - Heavens Tear · March 2010

The BH is good it allows an influx of higher players to high areas noob or not everyone can learn so getting players up higher is a good thing. The faster someone levels the more likely they are to continue playing the game regardless.

Grinding is not outdated nor is mat farming just because you don't do so doesn't mean thousands of other players don't do so. Try not to make blanket assumptions.

The wizard heal is perfect in its channeling. I have seen wizards cast almost instantly with morning dew without sutra. Its nuts how effective they are at healing already. Demon and sage ramp up that ability.

Basically I would say its perfect your just making a mountain out of mole hill

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The faster someone levels the more likely they are to continue playing the game regardless.

I lol'd b:chuckle

Raivon - Lost City · March 2010

I agree with the OP for the most part. I've been playing PWI since just a few months shy of the start of PWI and recent developments are just getting a little overboard. It really does make things too easy for ppl to reach 9x ... which also in turn makes it so a large player base really gets too cocky because they leveled so fast, yet dont know how to properly play their class. Which makes instances last longer and much more a pain yet they blame it on other people because "they leveled this fast because they know what they are doing". It becomes trivial in the end. Yes its good on some aspects but I do agree, BH's should be cut down some, some classes could use a revamp, other older aspects such as One Man Army and Envoy of Justice should be revamped as well.

Yulk - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Yes, the BHs should be reduced to ONCE a day. Also MORE of a challenge, its really boring in a lower LVL instance... even NPC geared players can do daily quests b:sweat. Leveling became such a joke, I just kinda want to stick to being low / mid LVL until the game and play with friends for challenges.

Also I think crazy stone deserves to be gone...

If the game gets back to where it was, then it would be more fun, maybe them fails might quit or take a break because "the game is too hard QQ" Hopefully the devs will make the game less of a powerlevel soon enough. I support...

And for the wizard's morning dew... Maybe it do need a faster channel or power and of course, much better chance to heal at full HP for sage wizard.

For now, just wait till the devs think about this nonsense

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · March 2010

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The BH is good it allows an influx of higher players to high areas noob or not everyone can learn so getting players up higher is a good thing. The faster someone levels the more likely they are to continue playing the game regardless.

NOT true. I've played games where leveling once can mean days of grinding. Yet even a suggestion of making it easier causes an outcry. The players love it.

In perfect world you hit 100 in a month and fizzle out. Then it boils down to PvP, make better armor, and dailies.... over and over. The fun in a game is the journey, not the destination. When I first made my BM, it took forever to level but everything was fun and a new experience. New goals to reach every day, new discoveries, quests, areas. Nothing more satisfying than realizing after weeks of work, you're actually killing those once-orange named mobs you used to look at fearfully. Back then doing things used to be an achievement. Now, a lv80 in +1-2 tt and legendary is a 2 week old nub. Even at end game you're still a nub unless you +7-10 everything.

Also I agree with OP quests need a major revamp. A mirage for higher level OMA's would be fair. Quests like "the punishment" and "heavenwear fragment" need to completely re-written. Exp and coin rewards on higher level quests needs a small boost. Some high level quests don't even have a coin/item reward at all. And more quests at high level. Quests take time, it's not like leveling off them is "cheating", but what it does do is make the game that little bit less monotonous.

Pressa - Heavens Tear · March 2010

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

NOT true. I've played games where leveling once can mean days of grinding. Yet even a suggestion of making it easier causes an outcry. The players love it.

In perfect world you hit 100 in a month and fizzle out. Then it boils down to PvP, make better armor, and dailies.... over and over. The fun in a game is the journey, not the destination. When I first made my BM, it took forever to level but everything was fun and a new experience. New goals to reach every day, new discoveries, quests, areas. Nothing more satisfying than realizing after weeks of work, you're actually killing those once-orange named mobs you used to look at fearfully. Back then doing things used to be an achievement. Now, a lv80 in +1-2 tt and legendary is a 2 week old nub. Even at end game you're still a nub unless you +7-10 everything.

Also I agree with OP quests need a major revamp. A mirage for higher level OMA's would be fair. Quests like "the punishment" and "heavenwear fragment" need to completely re-written. Exp and coin rewards on higher level quests needs a small boost. Some high level quests don't even have a coin/item reward at all. And more quests at high level. Quests take time, it's not like leveling off them is "cheating", but what it does do is make the game that little bit less monotonous.

I keep hearing about that "Game" where if the devs tried to make it easier people would complain. But this game has nothing to do with that game in this game what keeps people playing is the feeling of new some people get the feeling of new from leveling others get the feeling of new from doing new things. You can still do all those things they aren't removed from the game if you don't like how someone else thinks or plays go play without them.

Cause lordy knows how hard the game was before.

I saw people go from level 1 to 90 in a month before the expansion even.

Was it harder to do that sure but does it matter? Not at all If you got a problem with noobs as people say fix it teach them not in a I know better then you manner like everyone likes taking but tell them like you would tell yourself if you didn't know. You can go as fast or as slow as you want they don't force you to do BH in fact I rarely do BH but thats just cause I don't care about my level.

One thing I will agree with you on though is OMA it should have slightly greater rewards not exponentially ofc but a little more rep per quest would work nicely.

Unknown · March 2010

This content has been removed.

Laurrella - Dreamweaver · March 2010

1. I agree that leveling quickly does raise the chance that some folks will get to high end instances not being properly experienced to know their skills and their place in squads that just aren't blazing through BH's. I do think that the options do dramatically help casual gamers too how don't have a lot of time to play but who still want to see their characters grow.

The extra BH's to me allow non-CS players to get extra exp that hyper stone players get. And yes some people will do both but like some others have pointed out those people who rush, rush, rush to end game typically don't stay playing afterwards for too long because they have "beaten" the game.

2. I think Wizzies should be left alone so that they aren't overpowered. I know there are times where clerics are in short supply but games have a tendency to balance that kind of thing out over time. Right now tideborn classes are something new and a lot of people are trying them. After the newness has worn off I would expect class balance to return because cleric players know they can easily find groups.

3. One Man Army quests DEFINITELY need to be updated. Personally instead of increasing coin I would prefer increasing the amount of reputation given for completing them. There are some pretty cool rank gear at level 4 and above that many people can't get to without doing a ton of fb's or buying wraith badges.

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Laurrella - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...

3. One Man Army quests DEFINITELY need to be updated. Personally instead of increasing coin I would prefer increasing the amount of reputation given for completing them. There are some pretty cool rank gear at level 4 and above that many people can't get to without doing a ton of fb's or buying wraith badges.

So, you think that everyone must get high rank ?
But even faction can't have more than certain number of officers.

All factions have a limited number of positions. They are 12 Executioners, 4 Marshall's, 1 Director and 1 leader regardless of Tier.

and

Military ranks are given to those players whose fame (reputation points/glory points) reaches a certain number at a certain level. Having a higher military rank can give you stronger items and of course you can be really famous in your server if you're one of the people who has a very high military rank.

Imagine all players around you with weapons of 8th rank.b:bored

Pressa - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So, you think that everyone must get high rank ?
But even faction can't have more than certain number of officers.

and

Imagine all players around you with weapons of 8th rank.b:bored

LOLWHAT? Rank has nothing to do with factions

Magicsaber - Dreamweaver · March 2010

Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOLWHAT? Rank has nothing to do with factions

In other words army has one general and many soldiers.

Do you understand ?

High Millitary Rank is reward.

If all players will have maximum possible Millitary Rank, it can be removed and reward can be set according the player's level.

XylolyX - Heavens Tear · March 2010

Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I agree that One Man Armies need an update... I'm mean seriously... No matter how high you get its still 1 reputation point for 20 monsters, and eventually you only get a cele. frag. for every 60! The drop rate for high level players is pretty bad to be honest, so no drops during the 60-mob grind don't cut it. Half or more goes to my repair fees, which as a cleric are relatively low. Do barbarians (with low melee damage output) make any profit? Adding a coin reward or perhaps replacing the cele. fragment with a mirage stone might make a world of difference.

Rather than a coin reward, more rep would be nice. Instead of 6 or 7 or 8 rep, why not make it 10 or 15 or 20? Or maybe 5 mirages?

Regardless, it would be nice to see OMA get a re-vamp.

Pressa - Heavens Tear · March 2010

what a round about way to say that............... but on the other point adding a few more points to rep of higher level omas wouldn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things and it wouldn't be impossible to get.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · March 2010

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

2. Yes, as i pointed in my first post i do think the Wiz heal should be downgraded if the channeling is shortened. I understand this may bring some balance issues in PvP, but bringing the skill on line with what Clerics can accomplish leaves Wizzards in the same dilema Clerics face. Stop attacking to heal yourself also means giving the other guy a break, and a chance to set up something nasty. Morning Dew is not HoT so classes that can stun or one shot Wizzies would be at an advantage.

If anything should be shortened, it should be the casting time for BM skills. That would bring back some balance into the game where cash shop casters one or two shot just about anything that comes across their path.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

The fun in a game is the journey, not the destination. When I first made my BM, it took forever to level but everything was fun and a new experience. New goals to reach every day, new discoveries, quests, areas. Nothing more satisfying than realizing after weeks of work, you're actually killing those once-orange named mobs you used to look at fearfully. Back then doing things used to be an achievement. Now, a lv80 in +1-2 tt and legendary is a 2 week old nub. Even at end game you're still a nub unless you +7-10 everything.

Well said.

MANray_ - Sanctuary · March 2010

1. I'm not suggesting leveling should go back to what it used to be (personally would like it but oh, well) just that a single BH should be given a day. First BH gives the most xp anyway. I do hope it would affect the leveling pace a bit however, as it's become the main daily. Someone suggested it should become harder, i agree for two reasons; It would help to better train people and it would be more fun. Instances need something of a revamp, especially now that they've become an everyday part of the game. A lot more mobs, random spawns and adding some minibosses as patrols would help IMO. For people who like shortcuts there's still wines.

2. As for Wizards being able to cast Morning Dew faster already, this is one of the issues with the game. That for some people the standard has become what you can accomplish at high levels troubles me as playing through the low-mid levels seems to have become itself obsolete. I remember a time when playing Wizard was considered an endeavour for masochists/leet and many would have welcomed the idea of making them more accessible through leveling, as well as more wanted in squads.

3. I'm not sure rep itself would encourage a lot of people to go back to grinding, which would sort of defeat the purpose of revamping the quest. Also i would hate to see nerfed what is still a relatively hard to accomplish goal. Yes, rep can be bought but is so ridiculously expensive as to be somewhat impractical for everyone but a handful of heavy cash shoppers/merchants.

Thanks again all for replies.

Restoring Balance to the Game

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