Ending the sage vs demon debate here

Transcend - Lost City · February 2010

once and for all (for PvP, of course).

Every once in a while we get the demons' blessing to pull off major upsets against those we would be considered facerolls at end-game. Numbers would say that I don't stand a chance against a Rank 8 with event gear, +8 refines (to my +5/6), and a +10 demonhunter bow (to my +10 cv bow).

Roughly ~10.1k versus my ~6.9k hp, full chi, equal EP buffs, heads up 1v1 in real-world PvP. I caught on to a lucky streak and was able to pull a 7-crit combo to win, 10 crits altogether if you count damage-inducing attacks (and not resists).

Transcend vs Rank 8

In this fight I HEAVILY relied on my sharptooth/stun crit buffs with quickshot, used winged shell and wings of grace to reduce damage, and kited at the edge of range. We're both demon, making this win even more epic for me

I know this won't happen ALL the time, but it does give me, and hopefully others more insight on future match ups b:pleased

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · February 2010

cool story bro, but question, what do you think of constellation:fall compared to heaven shatterer? would you ever use one?

denesis · February 2010

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

cool story bro, but question, what do you think of constellation:fall compared to heaven shatterer? would you ever use one?

Im wondering the same, but i guess const fall would be better for killing heavies, and cv for robes.

Transcend - Lost City · February 2010

If I had the choice, I'd still go with shatterer for the interval and debuff. Crits are great and all, especially with metal crits, but for pure speed and higher refining grades, shatterer is better imo.

Having debuff proc, especially on end-game, high pdef mages basically means death for them. Debuff via any aoe is better than aoe with 3% crit.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · February 2010

think having both would be a good idea then :P?

Transcend - Lost City · February 2010

lol only if you want to spend loads of money for refining two near-endgame weapons high enough to do decent damage against 10x players.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · February 2010

Transcend - Lost City wrote: »

once and for all (for PvP, of course).
We're both demon, making this win even more epic for me

If you are both demon how does this have anything to do with sages?

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · February 2010

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you are both demon how does this have anything to do with sages?

it doesnt, tran just wanted to show off lol.

Devoted - Lost City · February 2010

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

it doesnt, tran just wanted to show off lol.

this could partly be it but i think what transcend is saying is:

To beat someone with a huge hp pool and moderate defenses that is vastly greater than yours you really need to be a demon archer. The high crit coupled with the high attack speed is really the only way you will kill someone that you do a low % of damage compared to hp to. The effectiveness the 12% more crit demon has was shown here in this fight as although 7 crits in a row with 50% crit is rare (0.78%, odds of 1 in 128) with sage it almost never happens(0.11%, odds of 1 in 870). Having an attack speed of ~1.2 compared to the ~0.87 of sage means that in the same period of time not only will demon hit more times, they will also crit more + the extra chance of critting on the shots sage never even took.

Although this has been said and reused over and over and is the basis of many arguments for demon the only way I can see this helping end the debate is we get some evidence in video form? Nonetheless the kill is impressive but more for in terms of 7 crits in a row after a quickshot proc. You got an early debuff and obviously some major luck was involved, your timing was still good which kept you alive for sure but you took the fight more 'seriously' I guess you could say, who knows maybe asiris doesn't pvp with apoc pots.

Transcend - Lost City · February 2010

^

If you disregard the resists just before the last stun+qs, it's actually 10 crits straight (qs, tshock & lightning).

Yeah, this is a bit of a chest thumping post because it shows that, in a game heavily favoring those who CS a LOT, those of us in the $xxx range do have a chance against the $xxxx players.

But only if you go demon and can kite well enough

Devoted - Lost City · February 2010

Transcend - Lost City wrote: »

^

If you disregard the resists just before the last stun+qs, it's actually 10 crits straight (qs, tshock & lightning).

Yeah, this is a bit of a chest thumping post because it shows that, in a game heavily favoring those who CS a LOT, those of us in the $xxx range do have a chance against the $xxxx players.

But only if you go demon and can kite well enough

Then it's 1 in 1024 for demon and 1 in 15833 for sage

And yeah beating a $xxxx vs a $xxx is a nice accomplishment but it's a lot harder when that $xxxx isn't light armor =/

Atreana - Lost City · February 2010

Transcend - Lost City wrote: »

once and for all (for PvP, of course).

Every once in a while we get the demons' blessing to pull off major upsets against those we would be considered facerolls at end-game. Numbers would say that I don't stand a chance against a Rank 8 with event gear, +8 refines (to my +5/6), and a +10 demonhunter bow (to my +10 cv bow).

Roughly ~10.1k versus my ~6.9k hp, full chi, equal EP buffs, heads up 1v1 in real-world PvP. I caught on to a lucky streak and was able to pull a 7-crit combo to win, 10 crits altogether if you count damage-inducing attacks (and not resists).

Transcend vs Rank 8

In this fight I HEAVILY relied on my sharptooth/stun crit buffs with quickshot, used winged shell and wings of grace to reduce damage, and kited at the edge of range. We're both demon, making this win even more epic for me I know this won't happen ALL the time, but it does give me, and hopefully others more insight on future match ups b:pleased

Awesome vid. I want to grow up to be like you. b:kiss

Fleuri - Sanctuary · February 2010

Transcend - Lost City wrote: »

^

If you disregard the resists just before the last stun+qs, it's actually 10 crits straight (qs, tshock & lightning).

Yeah, this is a bit of a chest thumping post because it shows that, in a game heavily favoring those who CS a LOT, those of us in the $xxx range do have a chance against the $xxxx players.

But only if you go demon and can kite well enough

Ok, I understand and you certainly are entitled to your chest thumping.

But I think you have falsely assumed that sages have no mechanism to achieve burst DPS.

TigerLily - Lost City · February 2010

I thought the debate ended months ago lol

Majority of people playing PWI knows sage archer is terribad for pvp so i really dont think anyone is "debating" about it still. Mostly its demon archers trying to debate or wishing people would be debating with them, but they cant find anyone to debate against since everyone agrees. Occasionally they can find a sage archer on pve server to discuss with, that really doesn't know mechanics around pvp.

But in general sage/demon for archers is like debating about flesh ream. We all know it doesn't have any pvp reduction so you need to find a complete clueless player if you wanna debate.

Only way for sage to get a mechanism similar to QS for dps is using genies, alltho it requires 80-100 strength to even come close to 30% attack speed.

Having 80-100 strength on a genie is not very wise for a squishy class like archers, wont have stamina to use skills you need to stay alive and kite.

Sage can never get the 45-50%+ crit demon has even if we get rank8 and every crit boosting even item out there including crit stones in weapon, event gear and 2% crit from leaf dance.

But blbeblebelbeb everyone knows this already which is why pretty much all archer hitting 89 today goes demon. The few that goes sage does it for pve and farming.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · February 2010

But blbeblebelbeb everyone knows this already which is why pretty much all archer hitting 89 today goes demon. The few that goes sage does it for pve and farming.

or because it matches their hair like fleuri >>

Fleuri - Sanctuary · February 2010

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Only way for sage to get a mechanism similar to QS for dps is using genies, ...

No.

b:chuckle

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

or because it matches their hair like fleuri >>

Yes!

b:victory b:cute

WaffleChan - Sanctuary · February 2010

sage has really no spike outside take aim, and even then its not even really worth using

Shadowvzs - Lost City · February 2010

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

The few that goes sage does it for pve and farming.

this is why i went for archer to sage path, because if i start directly wizz then that not even similiar invited to tt's than my archer or cleric/barb (but i dont like use cleric and barb cause more costly b:shutup)

Devoted - Lost City · February 2010

I'm turning this into a brag thread lol.

Today I killed a 99 veno(had either buddah's leaf or 99 crit sword) 1v1 with my 82 warrior(+3 xs) without a lame dragon+TE, pure stunlock ownage

Fleuri - Sanctuary · March 2010

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage has really no spike outside take aim, and even then its not even really worth using

But I know of several forms of spike damage which sage has. Some are inferior to their demon equivalents when used by themselves (triple spark, for example), but they still exist.

Others should have significant advantages in sage favor, but I have not yet gained access to them. (One of them I expect I will not have access to until I am level 100+), so I can not report on how good they really are.

Others, well... I have access to another source of spike damage, but I have not found a worthwhile target to test on yet. I was going to try using it in last week's TW but everyone we were fighting died too fast. (I was going to try it with triple spark on a catapult puller but by the time I figured out he did not have his invoke ready he was dead.)

Alexenokin - Lost City · March 2010

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Then it's 1 in 1024 for demon and 1 in 15833 for sage

And yeah beating a $xxxx vs a $xxx is a nice accomplishment but it's a lot harder when that $xxxx isn't light armor =/

the rank8 wasnt puredex?

well, honestly that does explain why you won... r8 bow is vastly superior to shatterer

Ussichu - Sanctuary · March 2010

Devoted met a $xxxx user of another class is harder to take down than a $xxxx LA class (archer, who knows how sins will work that level o.O)

Alexenokin - Lost City · March 2010

Ussichu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Devoted met a $xxxx user of another class is harder to take down than a $xxxx LA class (archer, who knows how sins will work that level o.O)

ohhh, ok... yea, cause was about to say, what fail archer using non-LA when having r8 lol

Olba - Sanctuary · March 2010

I don't quite see the point of the whole Demon vs Sage debate.

In the end, it's just about who's right and who's wrong. I seriously doubt that anyone here even considers the more altruistic choice of being better. After all, if one was proven to be superior beyond all doubt, that would totally mess up the market and anyone with the brains to prove something like that would also know that messing with the market of the skill books is not a good idea.

So, if anything, I think it's better to leave it on the level it is. After all, getting an undeniable fact at the cost of the market isn't a good deal.

Ussichu - Sanctuary · March 2010

i always find 5+ Sage quickshot selling for 20mil+ in AH... I bought demon quickshot for 16mil

Olba - Sanctuary · March 2010

Ussichu - Sanctuary wrote: »

i always find 5+ Sage quickshot selling for 20mil+ in AH... I bought demon quickshot for 16mil

And your point? It's not hard to find someone trying for a lucky shot by pricing their item 20 times higher than the normal price.

And considering that the general opinion of Archers is something like "lol you're auto-attacking because you're slow", that is, being completely ignorant of the fact that Archers do their job best by auto-attacking, it's not wonder that people think useless skills are worth money.

As a testament to that fact, we have Demon Take Aim. A high-damage opener, but also a lvl 1 skill, that can be found in AH for 50k, whereas Demon Deadly Shot is regularly in the several millions if not upwards of ten millions, even though the Demon bonus sucks and Demon DS being only slightly better than Demon TA and even then only with low refines.

Shadowvzs - Lost City · March 2010

Ussichu - Sanctuary wrote: »

i always find 5+ Sage quickshot selling for 20mil+ in AH... I bought demon quickshot for 16mil

i never payed for any sage skill from bh89/99 more than 1m (and from 89 i got for 50-100k)

i dont have ideea who is that dumb to buy sage quickshot for more than 1-2m indifferent the drop rate cause skill is sucks, i dont really sue too much times.

max i give 20m for sharp but for a useless skill 20m? no sense

mulanrouge · March 2010

anyone will lose if you proc a debuff

demon > sage

/endthread

Illyana - Dreamweaver · March 2010

mulanrouge wrote: »

anyone will lose if you proc a debuff

I'd have to agree with at least this. The vast majority of the fight was with your opponent completely debuffed. To suggest a one vs. one sage versus demon debate will boil down to one fight is, well... premature b:cute

Still, looks like a fun fight.

TigerLily - Lost City · March 2010

Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't quite see the point of the whole Demon vs Sage debate.

In the end, it's just about who's right and who's wrong. I seriously doubt that anyone here even considers the more altruistic choice of being better. After all, if one was proven to be superior beyond all doubt, that would totally mess up the market and anyone with the brains to prove something like that would also know that messing with the market of the skill books is not a good idea.

So, if anything, I think it's better to leave it on the level it is. After all, getting an undeniable fact at the cost of the market isn't a good deal.

It is already proven over and over that demon is superior for pvp. Seeing an 89 archer today that chooses a fairy instead of a hamburger is kinda out of the ordinary.

Also why the first initial sage archers books that drops in fb89 costs less than 50k if even that b:chuckle. Might as well npc sage Take Aim if you get it as a drop, no one will ever buy it.

Reason why the 89/92/99 sage archer books you get from pages still costs a bit is because not many sage archers around so no one is making them. All tho if you actually see a decent sage archer book in AH/stall (which is very rare) its cheaper than the demon version.

There is basically no market for sage books since there is no books to buy, beside the shiet ones that rarely drops in fb99 like vicious/knock back arrow etc. The market for demon books is pretty big, but costs a freaking fortune.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · March 2010

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage has really no spike outside take aim, and even then its not even really worth using

I do not have overwhelmingly good gear or anything, and I am a "fail" sage archer, however, even someone stupid and fail like me has some access to spike damage.

Currently (level 94 with -0.15 interval from gear), I can hit 0.91 attacks per second with my crossbow (without any clerics in squad). I know demons can get higher intervals, and I know slingshots can shoot faster, but I do not feel overwhelmed by my lack of demon abilities.

Here is a screenshot of some of my stats with me spiking my damage: http://yfrog.com/3dspikelj

Ending the sage vs demon debate here

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