Heaven's Flame Dilemma
Delmarte - Lost City
Posts: 216 Arc User
Ok, I have a question. We all know that Heaven's Flame is generally more useful that Glacial Spike in parties. But I've only recently started multipathing (started with pole) and my Heaven's Flame is only lv 2 and my Glacial Spike is lv 5. Levelling is gonna be a pain.
So my question is, is there ANY situation when Glacial Spike is better than Heaven's Flame? Any at all.
If you're gonna completely trash Glacial Spike though can you at least give a somewhat thought out response? XD
So my question is, is there ANY situation when Glacial Spike is better than Heaven's Flame? Any at all.
If you're gonna completely trash Glacial Spike though can you at least give a somewhat thought out response? XD
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If I'm here I'm bored or procrastinating. b:cute
If I'm here I'm bored or procrastinating. b:cute
Post edited by Delmarte - Lost City on
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Comments
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I mean, it does more damage so maybe it's better for following up a HF than a second HF? That's the only thing I can think of. Even after demon, with the 100% crit for 5 seconds(shorter time, 50% chance of happening), it should be only the hits from yourself that are crit and not hits receive by the target. So even then, it won't match the usefulness of HF. So yeah... I didn't really level my Glacial after I got axes. Though if you level it, it could make a nice combo of HF+Glacial in Delta.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk0 -
Glacial Spike + HF + Bramble Rage lololololol[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper. - T. S. Eliot0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »So my question is, is there ANY situation when Glacial Spike is better than Heaven's Flame? Any at all.
3/4 of the bosses in Nirvana are immune to HF but not to reductions (Glacial Spike)Far Beyond Driven
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
as well as CoA bosses. They're susceptible to Glacial Spike0
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Ok, I do want to use it in a PvP combo. Glacial Spike + Heaven's Flame + True Emptiness or Thunderstorm depending on the opponent and situation. But I won't be able to do it until I become a sage (yah I'm going sage, lol).
I also had no idea some bosses out there were immune to Heaven's Flame and not to Glacial Spike.
And in PvP if the opponent is about to run, then Glacial Spike would do more immediate damage, while its debuff would last longer.
Oh well. I'm still working on it. Anyone else wanna weigh in with their 2 cents?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If I'm here I'm bored or procrastinating. b:cute0 -
The basic difference between glacial spike and heavens flame is the fact that glacial spike effects the opponents defensive stats, whereas heavens flame simply makes them take 2x as much damage as usual.
Defensive stats work as follows...Take your base defense as 100% defense, then take all buffs and debuffs and add or subtract the % from that origional 100%. In other words full buffed you have 220% pdef. Glacial spike takes 50% off that value, leaving you with then 170% pdef...The top value of defense counts for the least amount of real damage reduction...hence glacial only hacks off the top part of the defense, which really does not amplify your damage nearly as much as heavens flames x2 factor. That being said it is far more effective on mobs than players.
Glacial becomes useful for stacking debuffs in pve, as well as if you have enough chi gain, you can spam both that and heavens on a boss continuously. For pvp the demon version could be useful with the guerenteed crit chance provided for like 5 seconds. Though in most situations heavens flame is a better choice for debuffing.0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »
And in PvP if the opponent is about to run, then Glacial Spike would do more immediate damage, while its debuff would last longer.
if the opponent runs i would switch to my sword and myriad ;o since it has 8m range and glacial not0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »Ok, I do want to use it in a PvP combo. Glacial Spike + Heaven's Flame + True Emptiness or Thunderstorm depending on the opponent and situation. But I won't be able to do it until I become a sage (yah I'm going sage, lol).
Waste of chi. Anyone who sees you casting dragons is either stupid to take it, or will jump/distance shrink/absolute domain/immunity pot through it.
I also had no idea some bosses out there were immune to Heaven's Flame and not to Glacial Spike.
And in PvP if the opponent is about to run, then Glacial Spike would do more immediate damage, while its debuff would last longer.
Oh well. I'm still working on it. Anyone else wanna weigh in with their 2 cents?
Yes, some bosses in CoA and Nirvana are immune to dragons.
If an opponent is about to run, occult ice.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
I suppose, assuming a crit is enough to kill the target, a combo like Demon Glacial Spike + TE or Bramble rage might be better than HF+Genie, for consistency?0
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Highly unlikely combo in PvP as mentioned, unless you start with Roar and then throw a chi pot in there.Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »Ok, I do want to use it in a PvP combo. Glacial Spike + Heaven's Flame + True Emptiness or Thunderstorm depending on the opponent and situation. But I won't be able to do it until I become a sage (yah I'm going sage, lol)._DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »I suppose, assuming a crit is enough to kill the target, a combo like Demon Glacial Spike + TE or Bramble rage might be better than HF+Genie, for consistency?
Well, if demon Spike DOES proc, that's just double the damage, which HF already does. But if you take the debuff into consideration then yeah, it has potential to hit harder than just the amp from HF. Though it is only 50% chance and unless you are using zerk pole, you are also missing out on the chance of genie attack also zerking.
For max damage with genie, here are your highest damage possibilities.
Spike: Base damage X2(crit) X2(zerk) X___(increase damage from debuff, which will be less than 2 )
HF: Base damage X2(crit) X2(zerk) X2(amp)
So with HF, you have a chance of hitting 8 times as hard while with spike it's a number greater than 4 but less than 8.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk0 -
Can genies zerk? o.ODefensive stats work as follows...Take your base defense as 100% defense, then take all buffs and debuffs and add or subtract the % from that origional 100%. In other words full buffed you have 220% pdef. Glacial spike takes 50% off that value, leaving you with then 170% pdef...The top value of defense counts for the least amount of real damage reduction...hence glacial only hacks off the top part of the defense, which really does not amplify your damage nearly as much as heavens flames x2 factor. That being said it is far more effective on mobs than players
This, how does it work on mobs? Because I doubt they have "diminishing returns" like players do, not to mention they hardly have defense buffs (yes there are some that have it, just not a lot!). If on mobs 50% less def would equal 2x more dmg, or maybe like 1.8-1.9x more dmg, GP would be better in PvE since it lasts longer, so more dmg will be taken by the mob(s).
Can this be verified?0 -
Heavens Flame > Glacial in all but spike damage for PvP. Hell glacial might be considered more useful than HF though if it works.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »Highly unlikely combo in PvP as mentioned, unless you start with Roar and then throw a chi pot in there.
Yah I am a little worried about this. I'd probably have the commands in a row (so I click click click click without going insane looking for the commands).
[Polearm] ["Roar of the Pride"] ["Glacial Spike"] [Axe/Hammer] ["Master Li's Techniqe"] ["Heaven's Flame"] ["Thunderstorm"] ["True Emptiness"]
(Yes I use the mouse. I'm a loser. XD)
Now for the part that worries me.
Starting from "Roar of the Pride" I have 6 seconds to finish the combo.
2.3 sec + Instant + Instant + 2.1 + Instant
4.4 seconds, but that doesn't factor in the split second delay for the command to register and, of course, the fact that all channeling and cooldowns are slightly longer than the official time. So I dunno. Is the sage chi gain skill even instant?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If I'm here I'm bored or procrastinating. b:cute0 -
If you are really going for that combo, I'd just use chi pot instead since you can take one even during the casting of a skill.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »Yah I am a little worried about this. I'd probably have the commands in a row (so I click click click click without going insane looking for the commands).
[Polearm] ["Roar of the Pride"] ["Glacial Spike"] [Axe/Hammer] ["Master Li's Techniqe"] ["Heaven's Flame"] ["Thunderstorm"] ["True Emptiness"]
(Yes I use the keyboard. I'm a loser. XD)
Now for the part that worries me.
Starting from "Roar of the Pride" I have 6 seconds to finish the combo.
2.3 sec + Instant + Instant + 2.1 + Instant
4.4 seconds, but that doesn't factor in the split second delay for the command to register and, of course, the fact that all channeling and cooldowns are slightly longer than the official time. So I dunno. Is the sage chi gain skill even instant?
Its not instant.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
How long does it take to use sage chi gain skill?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If I'm here I'm bored or procrastinating. b:cute0 -
Why would you give 2 sparks for 50% pdef reduction when you could use tangling mire and get 45% reduction on a str genie?
And why would you wanna waste all your chi in doing a combo that takes as long as a normal stun-lock to kill a robe.
Stick to the tried and true tactics people.
And no ulti combos are gonna kill a HA unless it crit-zerks or the target has crappy gear.
If you really wanna 2 shot things then stick to the classics: HF+TE, HF+MSS, etc. And once you realize that combos don't work endgame you'll end up going the DPS way just like any other BM with a brain.
Divine and Kniraven you guys always give good advice; slap some sense into this dude lol.
Now really I'm not flaming you but you're trying to make things way harder then they need to be.
There's no sense in wasting all your attack power on a cleric just to get owned 2 secs later by an archer because you had no chi for will of bodhi.0 -
Alarra - Harshlands wrote: »Why would you give 2 sparks for 50% pdef reduction when you could use tangling mire and get 45% reduction on a str genie?
And why would you wanna waste all your chi in doing a combo that takes as long as a normal stun-lock to kill a robe.
Stick to the tried and true tactics people.
And no ulti combos are gonna kill a HA unless it crit-zerks or the target has crappy gear.
If you really wanna 2 shot things then stick to the classics: HF+TE, HF+MSS, etc. And once you realize that combos don't work endgame you'll end up going the DPS way just like any other BM with a brain.
Divine and Kniraven you guys always give good advice; slap some sense into this dude lol.
Now really I'm not flaming you but you're trying to make things way harder then they need to be.
There's no sense in wasting all your attack power on a cleric just to get owned 2 secs later by an archer because you had no chi for will of bodhi.
Why not combine Tangling Mire and Glacial Spike to do a 100% phys def drop? The icon for Tangling Mire is not the normald phys def debuff one we usually get, so they should stack. And because of diminishing returns, the extra 50% means much more extra damage than the previous 50% drop.Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura
Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx
:NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.0 -
Alarra - Harshlands wrote: »Why would you give 2 sparks for 50% pdef reduction when you could use tangling mire and get 45% reduction on a str genie?
And why would you wanna waste all your chi in doing a combo that takes as long as a normal stun-lock to kill a robe.
Stick to the tried and true tactics people.
And no ulti combos are gonna kill a HA unless it crit-zerks or the target has crappy gear.
If you really wanna 2 shot things then stick to the classics: HF+TE, HF+MSS, etc. And once you realize that combos don't work endgame you'll end up going the DPS way just like any other BM with a brain.
Divine and Kniraven you guys always give good advice; slap some sense into this dude lol.
Now really I'm not flaming you but you're trying to make things way harder then they need to be.
There's no sense in wasting all your attack power on a cleric just to get owned 2 secs later by an archer because you had no chi for will of bodhi.
Well sooooorrrrryyyyy. XD
Hey I'm just trying to learn the game. I've never had an endgame character. And it's not like I'll be using this combo all the time. Just against one really stubborn enemy that no one thinks I should be able to beat (which will be true with any other tactic, lol). It's my super-emergency-you're-gonna-get-pwned-anyway-so-what-the-hell combo. lol And I can't delevel glacial spike anyway. I really just don't wanna see it go to waste.
So yah I appreciate the input. My heaven's flame is lv 3 now, and I'm beginning to see its usefulness shine. Unfortunately I've had to modify my gear a little and I also kinda regret using a cudgel of ancient alloy instead of calamity axes (anti-flame shield >b:beatup<). But I can switch between pole and axe quite well now, or at least better than before. XD
I happen to like experimenting too. If no one experimented, then no one would have discovered that assassins can make BHs go a lot faster without wines, or that LA wizards are just as good if not better than pure wizards at PvP, or even that venos could isolate mobs (pulling, ok maybe that one was obvious, but I've seen plenty of low levels that couldn't instinctively do it, so admit or not, but I think it's a learned skill), or that fist BMs don't suck! XD[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If I'm here I'm bored or procrastinating. b:cute0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »Yah I am a little worried about this. I'd probably have the commands in a row (so I click click click click without going insane looking for the commands).
[Polearm] ["Roar of the Pride"] ["Glacial Spike"] [Axe/Hammer] ["Master Li's Techniqe"] ["Heaven's Flame"] ["Thunderstorm"] ["True Emptiness"]
(Yes I use the mouse. I'm a loser. XD)
Now for the part that worries me.
Starting from "Roar of the Pride" I have 6 seconds to finish the combo.
2.3 sec + Instant + Instant + 2.1 + Instant
4.4 seconds, but that doesn't factor in the split second delay for the command to register and, of course, the fact that all channeling and cooldowns are slightly longer than the official time. So I dunno. Is the sage chi gain skill even instant?
lol
I'd like to see someone try to pull this off in group pvp. Hell, I'd like to see someone try to do that in a duel.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »Unfortunately I've had to modify my gear a little and I also kinda regret using a cudgel of ancient alloy instead of calamity axes (anti-flame shield >b:beatup<).
*Breaks the shield* You should burn in hell >:O !
Just get a pair, they are like less than one mil.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk0 -
I think it can be very useful at the right time, i am an axe BM and do plan on getting glacial spike to lvl 5 or 6 once i can afford it
its good for pvp compared to HF..... HF takes longer to cast i think, and is more damage over longer time since it amps ur damage... if they kite u, you get no extra damage bonus. But glacial spike its a good finisher, high damage and its all 1 shot. so you tick charm get them low again and bam glacial spike.
through in a bleed and some genie skills to make sure results are in yur favour
my thoughts0 -
Delmarte - Lost City wrote: »Well sooooorrrrryyyyy. XD
Hey I'm just trying to learn the game. I've never had an endgame character. And it's not like I'll be using this combo all the time. Just against one really stubborn enemy that no one thinks I should be able to beat (which will be true with any other tactic, lol). It's my super-emergency-you're-gonna-get-pwned-anyway-so-what-the-hell combo. lol And I can't delevel glacial spike anyway. I really just don't wanna see it go to waste.
So yah I appreciate the input. My heaven's flame is lv 3 now, and I'm beginning to see its usefulness shine. Unfortunately I've had to modify my gear a little and I also kinda regret using a cudgel of ancient alloy instead of calamity axes (anti-flame shield >b:beatup<). But I can switch between pole and axe quite well now, or at least better than before. XD
I happen to like experimenting too. If no one experimented, then no one would have discovered that assassins can make BHs go a lot faster without wines, or that LA wizards are just as good if not better than pure wizards at PvP, or even that venos could isolate mobs (pulling, ok maybe that one was obvious, but I've seen plenty of low levels that couldn't instinctively do it, so admit or not, but I think it's a learned skill), or that fist BMs don't suck! XD
YOU DONT USE CALAMITIES? b:angry b:beatup
Anyway just don't want to see another failed BM (too many of those around). Nothing wrong with experimenting but taking advice from experienced BMs is good also.
Failed build = grief for ther ppl in instances = you eventually quit / which is a bad thing because a BM is the most fun/versatile class in the game. We don't specialise in any one area which kinda bugs me a bit but hey ... you can't have everything.0 -
D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: Omg its a fist/multi weapon BM *calls forth all the Axe/hammer BM's Quick! Spam HF on him! b:angryDelmarte - Lost City wrote: »Well sooooorrrrryyyyy. XD
Hey I'm just trying to learn the game. I've never had an endgame character. And it's not like I'll be using this combo all the time. Just against one really stubborn enemy that no one thinks I should be able to beat (which will be true with any other tactic, lol). It's my super-emergency-you're-gonna-get-pwned-anyway-so-what-the-hell combo. lol And I can't delevel glacial spike anyway. I really just don't wanna see it go to waste.
So yah I appreciate the input. My heaven's flame is lv 3 now, and I'm beginning to see its usefulness shine. Unfortunately I've had to modify my gear a little and I also kinda regret using a cudgel of ancient alloy instead of calamity axes (anti-flame shield >b:beatup<). But I can switch between pole and axe quite well now, or at least better than before. XD
I happen to like experimenting too. If no one experimented, then no one would have discovered that assassins can make BHs go a lot faster without wines, or that LA wizards are just as good if not better than pure wizards at PvP, or even that venos could isolate mobs (pulling, ok maybe that one was obvious, but I've seen plenty of low levels that couldn't instinctively do it, so admit or not, but I think it's a learned skill), or that fist BMs don't suck! XD[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Assassin- Cold, Tough, Relentless, Brave, has a Disturbing Mix of Innocence and Violence.
-Proud Member of Vanquish0 -
Centaura - Dreamweaver wrote: »D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: Omg its a fist/multi weapon BM *calls forth all the Axe/hammer BM's Quick! Spam HF on him! b:angry
*waches them swing....and miss* b:chuckleGifs are hard to make work here0 -
Zerhee - Lost City wrote: »3/4 of the bosses in Nirvana are immune to HF but not to reductions (Glacial Spike)
WOW good to know0
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