Bash versus Roar on Herc

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  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Erm... nice to take my paragraph out of context. If you're a high 9x or 10x veno, your not likely to lose aggro to a bunch of tabbers or lowbies, are you? Perhaps just to an archer, but that's most likely it. Anyway, it was a theoretical situation. Yes, I know non ? bosses are much easier to steal aggro with. 93? Sorry, you're not endgame, you're still nub. Get your CV/TT99 to factor and see for yourself.

    Apparently you have serious reading comprehension skills or have just skimmed a few sentence of mine, in any event your meaningless banter has already been covered.

    Bash is a damage skill as well as a threat generating skill. Apparently you need to learn that Bash does not automatically steal aggro and that Roar does.
    You're not likely to lose aggro to any "lowbies", however, who makes a point of contention surrounding lowbies? Maybe you in a veno forum, which is why you have so many venos crawling up your youknowwhat. It's also hilarious that you mention this posting character, a cleric, in regards to endgame, then babble on about TT99 gear, which means, well, nothing at all.

    Maybe you need to learn that if a veno needs to "steal aggro" back from people that there is likely more issues with the squad (or the veno) than bash or roar will solve. Roar makes it far easier to yank aggro from a herc, making that little bitty second it took aggro rather useless. Cannot count how many times venos (particularly other venos squadded with mine) using roar or pounce have completely screwed up what would otherwise be very easy breezy runs.

    Anyhow, keep on musing about theoretical nonsense, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about here.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Either you don't have a veno and probably should stick to the bm forum or you do have one and simply have a LOT to learn. Bash is by far the best optional skill for a herc and given that you've stated that bash is merely damage, you should probably do a little more research. It's also an aggro skill.

    lol

    Two examples.... since you just can't believe it's true. 3-1 without cleric. Herc tanking Deathflow or Dark Colluseast. 50-75% of the way through archer or fist bm steals aggro... DD stops. There's maybe a span of 2-5 hits that can be tanked before someone dies. In that time roar can take aggro back, bash would most likely not. Replace either boss with random ? boss. OHT, Culti, 2-3 ape or a dozen other mini-bosses, etc...

    And yeah, I have no clue what I'm talking about. I've only been doing TT runs since before your apparent join date? lol
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • axt57
    axt57 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    lol

    Two examples.... since you just can't believe it's true. 3-1 without cleric. Herc tanking Deathflow or Dark Colluseast. 50-75% of the way through archer or fist bm steals aggro... DD stops. l

    Without bash, the archer/fist BM would take agro much quicker. Also, why would the archer or fist BM take agro if there is no cleric? Did they oracle their way up to lvl90+ and have no idea about agro control?

    I sometimes go to 3-1 with an archer who has a +10 heavenshatter. Either she's not stupid enough to take agro off that boss or simply can't.

    Also in those particular situations djin's buffs give bash quite a bit more power and help DD quite a bit.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    axt57 wrote: »
    Without bash, the archer/fist BM would take agro much quicker. Also, why would the archer or fist BM take agro if there is no cleric? Did they oracle their way up to lvl90+ and have no idea about agro control?

    I sometimes go to 3-1 with an archer who has a +10 heavenshatter. Either she's not stupid enough to take agro off that boss or simply can't.

    Also in those particular situations djin's buffs give bash quite a bit more power and help DD quite a bit.
    Since an even fairly decent-statted archer with a HS that refined could snag aggro off a herc relatively quickly (last one I squadded with took maybe 5-10 seconds), I'd point to the first paragraph.

    Once bash is gone that bonus damage (and aggro) is gone, so as iterated it's easier to take aggro from the herc, especially when it's reset. The whole notion of taking aggro back, as brilliant michael here likes to be a broken record about, gimps the herc's ability to hold aggro on top of trying to make up for lazy arses not going ape with ultimates on their cs gear. As mentioned, people who've put roar on their herc have turned easy runs into a pain in the ****, causing aggro to switch around more readily. If michael_dark actually payed attention to these things he might not be looking silly in this topic.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Two examples.... since you just can't believe it's true. 3-1 without cleric. Herc tanking Deathflow or Dark Colluseast. 50-75% of the way through archer or fist bm steals aggro... DD stops. There's maybe a span of 2-5 hits that can be tanked before someone dies. In that time roar can take aggro back, bash would most likely not. Replace either boss with random ? boss. OHT, Culti, 2-3 ape or a dozen other mini-bosses, etc...
    I don't think anyone is contesting that. What we're saying is that with Bash on your herc, the boss will take (say) 10 minutes to kill. With Roar on your herc, the boss will take (say) 15 minutes to kill because only the pet's damage and reflect is providing aggro, and everyone has to be careful not to exceed it. So:

    1) The situation you cite, where an archer or fist BM steals aggro, is less likely to happen in the first place with the Bash herc. For the archer/BM to steal aggro from the Bash herc would require they do some 30%-50% more damage than with a Roar herc.

    2) Having Roar on your herc significantly increases the amount of time it takes to kill anything. Not only does this decrease your overall effectiveness and increase the time you spend fighting, it allows more opportunities for a party member to steal aggro from the pet, more opportunities for the pet to get killed by one or two lucky high-damage hits or a lag bubble.

    So is having the safety net of Roar worth being on the losing end of those two points? Most people say no, and that Bash is better. Nobody is disagreeing with you - we all agree Roar is a very handy skill to have. But if you look at the tradeoffs you have to make to put Roar on your herc, it just isn't worth it.
  • Chobsi - Heavens Tear
    Chobsi - Heavens Tear Posts: 540 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I think one of the main reasons Bash is chosen over Roar on a herc is.
    Bash helps keep aggro Roar doesnt.
    So if you can pull off a herc with Roar, your gonna do it again
    And again
    And again
    And again...With Bash, It wouldnt lose aggro as easily as it would with Roar, and once it got it back it could hold it more efficently unlike with Roar.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Chobsi the only thing your good at is making your character look good, otherwise your fail"
    "Did that 95 BM just kill himself to your Herc? Mmm..Yep"
    "Oh that thing I thought was a statue, it 1 shot me, switch to your cleric please"
    "So that Hercules guy from the disney movie really aged well.."
    ~Chobsi b:cute
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Umm... skills like Stream Strike or Flesh Ream, Bash, etc... generate threat and help to hold aggro, skills like alpha male or roar reset and grab it.

    start at page 4, rinse, repeat.

    i cant speak inteligently on stream strike so I wont, the flesh ream i was referring to was a barbs fleshream, not the pet skill, barbs flesh ream resets and grabs, wile generating a lot of hate/threat, as does alpha male, roar does the same thing, but generates minimal threat.

    you are either in these forums because you just wanna tell venos what to do strickly for what you think is your benefit, and are going about it wrong. Or you have a veno alt and are legitimately trying to decide which skill to put on you herc, which i doubt very much.

    and unless your herc is playing second fiddle to a higher level herc, which is again only useful in specialized circumstances and bad for general use, bash wins.

    learn to damage control, or tank yourself, or get a barb.
    Hercs are not barbs, roar will not make them barbs. it will only make them worse damage dealers and worse tanks.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    barbs flesh ream resets and grabs

    Um.... no. Barb roar resets, just like pet roar and alpha-male. Barb fleshream just generates great big piles of aggro.


    Bash does generate the best aggro over time. (aps?) No argument there. That lets other people do more damage whilst the herc holds the boss. That's a good thing.
    But it's hard to gauge - and high level people can and WILL pull aggro from the herc. And when that happens, you cannot get it back. (Yes, that's the archer/wizards fault, they shout "Pull aggro!" rather than stopping attacking. Gah!)

    Roar would let you do what they want - at the cost of it happening more often. I can see 'acting like a barb' making things simpler, though the cost is high.

    I actually still use pounce. It lets me stop the trashmobs dead as soon as someone pulls (which happens way more often on trashmobs than bosses, since they're not [?]) giving everyone time to sort themselves out.
    On bosses, the increased attack rate adds a fair chunk of aggro - though not as much as bash.

    Having said that - as I start squadding with high level characters more often, I'm getting more and more tempted to use bash. The problem is that although in theory it makes things more reliable, having more aggro won't make any difference if it's still less than the madly critting archer.

    Plus, you know, one meeeellion coins.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I won't respond to everyone's posts because my response to this post pretty much adresses what everyone else has mentioned to some extent.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is contesting that. What we're saying is that with Bash on your herc, the boss will take (say) 10 minutes to kill. With Roar on your herc, the boss will take (say) 15 minutes to kill because only the pet's damage and reflect is providing aggro, and everyone has to be careful not to exceed it. So:

    In a DD party, this is way exaggerated. Having Bash or not will not significantly reduce the time spent taking a boss down with a full party. For a solo veno, as I've said before Roar is useless. Does reflect not deal a much larger amount of damage that increases threat as well? Everyone seems to be ignoring this.

    1) The situation you cite, where an archer or fist BM steals aggro, is less likely to happen in the first place with the Bash herc. For the archer/BM to steal aggro from the Bash herc would require they do some 30%-50% more damage than with a Roar herc.

    It is less likely to happen, but when it does, it also takes Bash much longer to regain (not hold) aggro, does it not?

    2) Having Roar on your herc significantly increases the amount of time it takes to kill anything. Not only does this decrease your overall effectiveness and increase the time you spend fighting, it allows more opportunities for a party member to steal aggro from the pet, more opportunities for the pet to get killed by one or two lucky high-damage hits or a lag bubble.

    It significantly incrases time to kill something IF you are not in a full party, or if you wish to solo. The amount of damage it produces in a full party is not significant, especially since the herc is also reflecting a considerable amount of damage, which also helps maintain aggro.

    So is having the safety net of Roar worth being on the losing end of those two points? Most people say no, and that Bash is better. Nobody is disagreeing with you - we all agree Roar is a very handy skill to have. But if you look at the tradeoffs you have to make to put Roar on your herc, it just isn't worth it.


    In the many hundreds of instances that I've run, as well as many of the people I know, they would agree with me. However there are also a great deal that don't... and I'm aware of that, I just don't agree with it.

    As much as some of you are saying I have an attitude, I haven't called any of you stupid ignorant morons who don't know **** for not agreeing or being able to understand my opinion. lol i do play the game, and I've seen far more people die because Bash cannot regain aggro quick enough. All of you are acting like, OMG it's gonna happen over and over and over with Roar... that's just funny.

    I don't really care about me, it's usually an archer, mage or metal mage that ends up stealing aggro off regular mobs and dies, or when archer or fist bm steals from a ? boss... However, the simple question is: If a herc dies and is re-summoned, or if the herc loses aggro, which skill will immediately take aggro back?
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Bash does generate the best aggro over time. (aps?) No argument there. That lets other people do more damage whilst the herc holds the boss. That's a good thing.
    But it's hard to gauge - and high level people can and WILL pull aggro from the herc. And when that happens, you cannot get it back. (Yes, that's the archer/wizards fault, they shout "Pull aggro!" rather than stopping attacking. Gah!)

    And that's one of the reasons why I prefer Roar.
    Having said that - as I start squadding with high level characters more often, I'm getting more and more tempted to use bash. The problem is that although in theory it makes things more reliable, having more aggro won't make any difference if it's still less than the madly critting archer.

    Another point I've been making. Having more aggro over time isn't going to help when aggro IS stolen and needs to be regained. It's a personal choice of the veno which to use, but being in a party with a veno using a herc, I would still prefer roar over bash for all the reasons I've previously stated.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    The problem with roar is threefold for me.

    First, it isn't instant. The enemy will complete its current attack cycle before (hopefully) switching back to the pet. Which means a dead archer.
    Pounce (usually, not always on bosses) stops the enemy right there.

    Secondly it generates naff all aggro. After a roar even I can steal aggro!

    So the enemy goes on with its attack cycle, during which time the herc generates a tiny bit of aggro by hitting it, and all the other players attacks land - and so after the enemy finishes the archer off and goes looking for its next target, it'll pick whoever had the biggest attack. Which is unlikely to be the herc unless everyone managed to cancel their attacks. (And if they're that good then they didn't steal aggro in the first place)

    The final nail in roar's coffin, for me, is that it doesn't do any damage.

    So, basically, I prefer pounce over roar in every way except one and a half (pounce's longer cooldown, and that although it will stop the enemy it doesn't guarantee a re-steal the way roar used properly does)
    Whether to use bash or not is still an interesting question. I'm seeing fewer bash supporters here than last time the issue was brought up.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    In a DD party, this is way exaggerated. Having Bash or not will not significantly reduce the time spent taking a boss down. Does reflect not deal a much larger amount of damage that increases threat as well?
    Reflect doesn't make a difference because both the Bash herc and the Roar herc get it.
    It significantly incrases time to kill something IF you are not in a full party, or if you wish to solo. The amount of damage it produces in a full party is not significant, especially since the herc is also reflecting a considerable amount of damage, which also helps maintain aggro.
    I think I see where we're getting our signals crossed. The damage + threat the herc does sets the upper limit of damage every party member can do without stealing aggro from the herc. In other words, it's not just the additional Bash damage which lets the Bash herc kill the boss faster. It's also the extra damage all the party members can do without pulling aggro due to Bash's extra damage and threat.

    The Bash herc's aggro capacity is: normal_damage + reflect + bash_damage + bash_threat
    The Roar herc's aggro capacity is: normal_damage + reflect

    With the Roar herc tanking, all the DDers need to limit their damage to a maximum of (normal_damage + reflect). With the Bash herc tanking, the DDers can do an extra (bash_damage + bash_threat) of damage than they could with the Roar herc.

    If you project out my test numbers, bash_threat = ~5500-6000 damage.

    A level 90 herc has 2672 attack, which in 9.5 seconds (1.5 sec cast, 8 sec cooldown for Bash) amounts to 20.3k damage. That is:
    normal_damage = 20.3k in 9.5 sec
    bash_damage = 2672 per 9.5 sec
    bash_threat = 5750 per 9.5 sec

    So (bash_damage + bash_threat) is 41% of (normal_damage), which matches this person's experience with Claw, which pretty much established that (bash_damage + bash_threat) is significantly more than 30% of (normal_damage).

    Based on the above numbers we calculated, with each herc tanking, the maximum damage every party member can do without stealing aggro is:
    Roar herc: normal_damage + reflect = 20.3k + reflect per 9.5 sec.
    Bash herc: 1.41*normal_damage + reflect = 28.6k + reflect per 9.5 sec.

    With the Bash herc tanking, every party member is able to do an additional 8.3k damage per 9.5 sec without pulling aggro. That's an additional 874 DPS.

    My heavy veno pulls aggro off her level 90 Bash herc at about 4.2k DPS (varies with reflect damage). So we can deduce you'd pull aggro off a Roar herc at 4200-874 = 3326 DPS. 4200/3326 = 1.26, or 26% more party damage with Bash than with Roar.

    In other words, every party member can safely, without pulling aggro, do 26% more DPS with the Bash herc tanking than with the Roar herc. I'd call an ~20% reduction in the time needed to kill a boss pretty significant.

    *All damage figures are raw. i.e. before taking defense into account. But defense won't change the percentages.
    However, the simple question is: If a herc dies and is re-summoned, or if the herc loses aggro, which skill will immediately take aggro back?
    Assuming someone is able to tank the mob for the time it takes me to mess around with resummoning pets, I have a magmite and marksman with Roar. I haven't had to do this yet so I can't say for sure it will work, but theoretically it should.

    Herc dies, secondary tank gets aggro.
    I revive herc.
    I summon magmite/marksman, it uses Roar, which resets aggro.
    I summon herc, and it should be able to regain aggro within 5-10 sec.
  • Pressa - Heavens Tear
    Pressa - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Assuming someone is able to tank the mob for the time it takes me to mess around with resummoning pets, I have a magmite and marksman with Roar. I haven't had to do this yet so I can't say for sure it will work, but theoretically it should.

    Herc dies, secondary tank gets aggro.
    I revive herc.
    I summon magmite/marksman, it uses Roar, which resets aggro.
    I summon herc, and it should be able to regain aggro within 5-10 sec.

    This is the most logical way
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SeaStorm - Heavens Tear
    SeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    lol

    Two examples.... since you just can't believe it's true. 3-1 without cleric. Herc tanking Deathflow or Dark Colluseast. 50-75% of the way through archer or fist bm steals aggro... DD stops. There's maybe a span of 2-5 hits that can be tanked before someone dies. In that time roar can take aggro back, bash would most likely not. Replace either boss with random ? boss. OHT, Culti, 2-3 ape or a dozen other mini-bosses, etc...

    And yeah, I have no clue what I'm talking about. I've only been doing TT runs since before your apparent join date? lol

    I'll go with freaking fail BM/Archer. My squads go full out nuke at 90% hp left (maybe sooner) and don't steal aggro.

    I run 3-1 with a 10X BM. He run GX Fists (and don't give me **** about there not being GX fists...Budda's Peace [not the whimpy lunar ones that give off the same color glow] - there's a GX for each weapon type). He NEVER EVER freaking steals aggro off me. Gives my herc about 3 hits then he goes full force. I stack his skills with 30% amp (sage) he still can't steal. Also tank a few of the bosses in 3-2, 3-3....I'm usually the "baby" lvl of the squad (usually with 10X). I keep aggro they don't...they know how to play their class.

    BTW if my lvl 96 herc with bash can go tank the ? bosses in valley of the scarred with lvl 10X Wizzies etc in full nuke mode and they cannot steal aggro I'm not freaking worried about getting roar back on my herc (yeah I replaced it with bash cause it works better).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Hmm.

    I wonder how much of this is a level-based thing?

    I mean, most of my experience with using a herc is 6x and 7x. I can easily believe that the unobtainable heights of level 96 change things a lot.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    The problem with roar is threefold for me.

    First, it isn't instant. The enemy will complete its current attack cycle before (hopefully) switching back to the pet. Which means a dead archer.
    Pounce (usually, not always on bosses) stops the enemy right there.

    Secondly it generates naff all aggro. After a roar even I can steal aggro!

    The final nail in roar's coffin, for me, is that it doesn't do any damage.

    Yes, pounce is indeed a useful skill. I wasn't debating that it or that bash wasn't, only that I prefer roar from my in-game experiences. As I've said a few times over, it's useless for soloing as it doesn't do damage at all.

    After aggro is stolen and roar is used, people know to stop DDing so that the herc can regain control with reflect + damage. The simple fact that once DD stop, herc can easily and quickly retake aggro. Of course it's dependent on the party to NOT do damage while reflect damage can set in. I think any party that steals aggro from the tank realizes they need to stop until aggro is regained, whether it's a barb or herc with any aggro skill.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Pressa - Heavens Tear
    Pressa - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Yes, pounce is indeed a useful skill. I wasn't debating that it or that bash wasn't, only that I prefer roar from my in-game experiences. As I've said a few times over, it's useless for soloing as it doesn't do damage at all.

    After aggro is stolen and roar is used, people know to stop DDing so that the herc can regain control with reflect + damage. The simple fact that once DD stop, herc can easily and quickly retake aggro. Of course it's dependent on the party to NOT do damage while reflect damage can set in. I think any party that steals aggro from the tank realizes they need to stop until aggro is regained, whether it's a barb or herc with any aggro skill.

    b:cold

    opinon stated thats exactly what everyone has been saying since the start.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Reflect doesn't make a difference because both the Bash herc and the Roar herc get it.

    Reflect does make a difference, because it does generate the primary source of threat.

    Roar will absolutely re-take aggro when it is used. Bash will not. Threat will be generated from the boss as it's being hit by the herc and taking reflect damage.

    Bash will eventually retake aggro with it's initial damage + threat, but the reflect damage will not affect threat until the herc gains aggro.

    Am I wrong in this much?

    I think I see where we're getting our signals crossed.

    Based on the above numbers we calculated, with each herc tanking, the maximum damage every party member can do without stealing aggro is:
    Roar herc: normal_damage + reflect = 20.3k + reflect per 9.5 sec.
    Bash herc: 1.41*normal_damage + reflect = 28.6k + reflect per 9.5 sec.

    With the Bash herc tanking, every party member is able to do an additional 8.3k damage per 9.5 sec without pulling aggro. That's an additional 874 DPS.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I'm not debating this at all, I already know this (however I've never crunched the exact figures) and don't dispute it at all.

    When the overall dps of the DD squad exceeds what even the Herc with Bash will allow for, the time it takes the herc to regain aggro is longer. It will also take longer for reflect threat to build up because the reflect threat won't build up until *after* the herc regains aggro.

    Please explain how I am wrong here....
    My heavy veno pulls aggro off her level 90 Bash herc at about 4.2k DPS (varies with reflect damage). So we can deduce you'd pull aggro off a Roar herc at 4200-874 = 3326 DPS. 4200/3326 = 1.26, or 26% more party damage with Bash than with Roar.

    And with Roar your herc will immediately regain aggro, with Bash it may not.

    In other words, every party member can safely, without pulling aggro, do 26% more DPS with the Bash herc tanking than with the Roar herc. I'd call an ~20% reduction in the time needed to kill a boss pretty significant.

    You would also need to factor (which I think would be pretty difficult considering it's a very situational occurrence) the time a DD party would need to stop DD and wait for the herc to retain aggro before they can commence attacking. The herc with Roar would immediately steal aggro and from that point would be generating reflect threat. With Bash, the threat slowly increases until aggro is retaken. At that point reflect threat starts adding in while the party must still wait a bit even after having waited for Bash to regain aggro.

    Correct?


    Assuming someone is able to tank the mob for the time it takes me to mess around with resummoning pets, I have a magmite and marksman with Roar. I haven't had to do this yet so I can't say for sure it will work, but theoretically it should.

    Herc dies, secondary tank gets aggro.
    I revive herc.
    I summon magmite/marksman, it uses Roar, which resets aggro.
    I summon herc, and it should be able to regain aggro within 5-10 sec.

    And that works fine in theory, but the time to revive a pet, summon another one, then stow it and resummon herc, then rebuff it, send to attack... but you might not have time to do all this before a boss cycles through every target and wipes out.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    SeaStorm - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'll go with freaking fail BM/Archer. My squads go full out nuke at 90% hp left (maybe sooner) and don't steal aggro.

    I run 3-1 with a 10X BM. He run GX Fists (and don't give me **** about there not being GX fists...Budda's Peace [not the whimpy lunar ones that give off the same color glow] - there's a GX for each weapon type). He NEVER EVER freaking steals aggro off me. Gives my herc about 3 hits then he goes full force. I stack his skills with 30% amp (sage) he still can't steal. Also tank a few of the bosses in 3-2, 3-3....I'm usually the "baby" lvl of the squad (usually with 10X). I keep aggro they don't...they know how to play their class.

    BTW if my lvl 96 herc with bash can go tank the ? bosses in valley of the scarred with lvl 10X Wizzies etc in full nuke mode and they cannot steal aggro I'm not freaking worried about getting roar back on my herc (yeah I replaced it with bash cause it works better).

    First, calm down? Yes, there are a number of 9x+ claws and fists, 4 TT99, CV Cube, CV Deicide, 90 Gold, TT100, Nirvana, 6jun, 8jun.... Tell your buddy that GX claws fail. Anything that steals health (buddha's peace) or that lower your defenses (cube) don't help with a vit restricted class. Deicide or TT100 are best. Deicide better for PvE as it has a 10% max hp debuff and TT100 better for PvP for the extra crit and +maximum attack. In the end, it doesn't really matter which fista are used.

    That's nice, nobody ever pulls aggro off your herc so apparently it can't ever happen?

    Yay, your herc can tank 2nd map bosses without stealing aggro... I can tank 4th map bosses without having someone else steal aggro either.

    What was your point again? *shrug*
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    b:cold

    opinon stated thats exactly what everyone has been saying since the start.

    My opinion hasn't changed since I started... I prefer Roar over Bash. Not saying anythnig else really. >.>

    b:surrender
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Hmm.

    I wonder how much of this is a level-based thing?

    I mean, most of my experience with using a herc is 6x and 7x. I can easily believe that the unobtainable heights of level 96 change things a lot.

    I've never had issues with people stealing aggro from a herc until mid 9x. The higher you get, the more people you're squading with have +!0 8jun/TT99/debuff bows/+11claws, etc... The more frequently you're seeing archers and mages who can tank these bosses for a few hits.. long enough for a herc to be revived, summoned, buffed and sent out to retake aggro, but maybe not a whole lot longer than that. And even if it doesn't present itself as a potential party wipe, it might save a half dozen to dozen charm ticks.

    In all the situations I've been in for the last few months, in my opinon, Roar is definitely better than Bash for the party for this reason. When aggro is lost from herc from either too much damage or from dying, Roar is much quicker to take a boss away from someone who might not be willing or fully able to tank. Eh?
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Options
    if you pull aggro off a roar herc it will happen over and over and over, every 15 seconds.

    if you pull aggro of a bash herc it will happen over and over and over and you will have t stop attacking until herc gets aggro back.

    either way, the problem is the class overdoing it on the damage. +11 is gonna steal from herc, matter what skill herc has.

    if you are lvl 101 with a +11 weapon and don't know how control your damages yet, what power leveling service have you been using? cause you certainly havent been playing pwi, the most important part of being a DD is knowing how to control your damage, not seeing how much of it you can do.

    An archer with a +11 HS and -.25 in int gear and any experience using it is gonna know that they cant go all out on a boss when a herc is tanking, no matter what skill it has.
    ("you" as the reader, not anyone specifically)

    @Michael: at some point the position you hold and the position that just about everybody else holds on this subject becomes dogmatic. you don't seem to have the capacity to be convinced that any position other that your own is better, and likewise on the bash side. 2 sides of an arguement both quite self assured that they are right and repeating the same thing over and over toward the other side.

    this perfectly fits the definition of a stalemate, and continuing any further would be futile.


    @Vintanka

    the reason i say barbs flesh ream resets and grabs is because FR will grab aggro no matter how much aggro is built up on another target, and unless aggro is a variable with no, or a very high, upper limit, the large amount of aggro generated by FR would be useless without also resetting. This is supported by the fact that a barb must continue to flesh ream after the initial flesh ream, or will risk losing agro.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    the reason i say barbs flesh ream resets and grabs is because FR will grab aggro no matter how much aggro is built up on another target

    But.. it doesn't do that.

    Barb roar does that. Fleshream generates a HUGE pile of hate - but if someone else has enough hate already, it won't steal aggro.

    Playing a tiny little baby barb can prove that pretty quickly (whilst also proving that yes, a low barb using fleshream will steal a heck of a lot of the time even against very high level DD classes)
  • SeaStorm - Heavens Tear
    SeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Options
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    First, calm down? Yes, there are a number of 9x+ claws and fists, 4 TT99, CV Cube, CV Deicide, 90 Gold, TT100, Nirvana, 6jun, 8jun.... Tell your buddy that GX claws fail. Anything that steals health (buddha's peace) or that lower your defenses (cube) don't help with a vit restricted class. Deicide or TT100 are best. Deicide better for PvE as it has a 10% max hp debuff and TT100 better for PvP for the extra crit and +maximum attack. In the end, it doesn't really matter which fista are used.

    That's nice, nobody ever pulls aggro off your herc so apparently it can't ever happen?

    Yay, your herc can tank 2nd map bosses without stealing aggro... I can tank 4th map bosses without having someone else steal aggro either.

    What was your point again? *shrug*

    First I was calm when I wrote that. Second you were referring specifically to ? bosses in TT etc...so I was responding specifically to that. And yes, if I'm working mobs/bosses lower lvl than me and my squad (ie BHs etc) ANY of us can pull aggro off them...why cause they're lvl listed bosses and most of us are dealing a heck of a lot of damage. If I'm working lvl listed mobs that are my lvl or higher...and I'm the tank my squad knows how to handle their chars and we don't have issues, as I said the people I squad with know how to play their chars. Since changing to Bash I rarely have felt the need for using roar etc. cause I just don't need it. I used roar for over 10 lvls so I know which one I prefer and how it works with how I play. Each player to their own.

    As to my friend...and your comment about the claws...he's got the GX, 99s etc...along with several other weapons. You're also stating things when you don't know his build and that can go under the BM section. Won't debate that here.

    P.S. I believe Valley of the Scared is 3rd map as it's OHT, Unicorn Forest, then Valley.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Options
    SeaStorm - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    First I was calm when I wrote that.

    Yes, friggen this and friggen that. Ok
    Second you were referring specifically to ? bosses in TT etc...so I was responding specifically to that. And yes, if I'm working mobs/bosses lower lvl than me and my squad (ie BHs etc) ANY of us can pull aggro off them...why cause they're lvl listed bosses and most of us are dealing a heck of a lot of damage. If I'm working lvl listed mobs that are my lvl or higher...and I'm the tank my squad knows how to handle their chars and we don't have issues, as I said the people I squad with know how to play their chars. Since changing to Bash I rarely have felt the need for using roar etc. cause I just don't need it. I used roar for over 10 lvls so I know which one I prefer and how it works with how I play. Each player to their own.

    I agree it's a personal preference. I'm not making your mind up for you, I've been stating all along why I prefer one over the other. This is a game, as you point out, with many different builds, options and play styles... and I'm far more comfortable with a herc with Roar than I am with Bash.

    And yes I stand corrected, it's quite early... old heaven's tear, unicorn forest, valley of the scarred and moonshade desert....
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Pressa - Heavens Tear
    Pressa - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,287 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Options
    Michael stop double and triple and quadruple posting thats a surefire way to get banned from the forums address all issues in ONE post different thoughts keep posting you can in fact multi quote for that reason.

    Exactly why are you arguing it if you agree with them? Your not bringing anything new to the argument Michael everyone including you has said they agree so stop. We get it you prefer roar you think its better then ice cream we get the point.

    And sasha even though multiple people are saying it every other time a post gets made something new gets brought for bash.(well most of it)

    And no Sasha it doesn't reset aggro because if it did then a half dead boss and a newbie barb would be able to steal aggro and that is not always the case.

    It generates a huge amount of aggro and turns it to the barb however even with flesh ream if the boss is almost dead and the tiger reams for the first time it will not go to him until another ream. If it reset it everytime a barb would be unable to keep aggro like the case being made against roar for a pet. Sorry but Vitenka is right it does not steal it 100% of the time I can attest to this as I have a alt barb and have tried it before b:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Options
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    @Michael: at some point the position you hold and the position that just about everybody else holds on this subject becomes dogmatic. you don't seem to have the capacity to be convinced that any position other that your own is better, and likewise on the bash side.

    I fully know and understand what both skills do, how they work, and how their application in the (so to speak) field affects what I'm doing.

    I still contend for my play style, as well as many other people I know and squad with, Roar is better and more predictable in a party situation as I have outlined above. Just as Roar has it's uses, for a solo veno, it is pretty worthless. On the other hand, Bash does do a considerable amount of damage (more than I had realized) but still is not predictable in regaining lost aggro. For a solo veno, it's a no-brainer, it's far superior. In a party situation, it is useful but it is not as predictable.

    That is why I prefer Roar to Bash. I don't know how many other ways I can re-word my opinion to make it understandable. You don't have to agree, but my opinions are completely valid.

    Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Michael stop double and triple and quadruple posting thats a surefire way to get banned from the forums address all issues in ONE post different thoughts keep posting you can in fact multi quote for that reason.

    LOL. PM a mod and have them come take a look at this thread. I will not get banned, I am not crossposting, I am not double posting, I am responding to messages, and if that includes creating a new message after another to respond to, it's just fine. >.> I'd bet my life on it. lol
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    That is why I prefer Roar to Bash. I don't know how many other ways I can re-word my opinion to make it understandable. You don't have to agree, but my opinions are completely valid.

    You keep going on and on about how Bash is better for solo venos and Roar is better for party venos...but what if they want to do both?

    And before anyone says "get a second Herc", allow me to say, not everyone is rich enough to throw money around like that.

    Edit: I gave bash to my herc, and so far, he's kept aggro from a 97 wizard going full bore with ultis and sparks.

    He's also stolen aggro from a 99 barb on several occasions in FC.
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Options
    Pressa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

    And sasha even though multiple people are saying it every other time a post gets made something new gets brought for bash.(well most of it)

    And no Sasha it doesn't reset aggro because if it did then a half dead boss and a newbie barb would be able to steal aggro and that is not always the case.

    It generates a huge amount of aggro and turns it to the barb however even with flesh ream if the boss is almost dead and the tiger reams for the first time it will not go to him until another ream. If it reset it everytime a barb would be unable to keep aggro like the case being made against roar for a pet. Sorry but Vitenka is right it does not steal it 100% of the time I can attest to this as I have a alt barb and have tried it before b:cute

    no need to be sorry, i was under an impression about the effect of a skill based on observation, and can readily accept that my impression is wrong.
    I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong. I swear this was not a devious device used to advance the argument against michael's position, but it would have been pretty clever had that been the case b:embarrass
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    I fully know and understand what both skills do, how they work, and how their application in the (so to speak) field affects what I'm doing.

    I still contend for my play style, as well as many other people I know and squad with, Roar is better and more predictable in a party situation as I have outlined above. Just as Roar has it's uses, for a solo veno, it is pretty worthless. On the other hand, Bash does do a considerable amount of damage (more than I had realized) but still is not predictable in regaining lost aggro. For a solo veno, it's a no-brainer, it's far superior. In a party situation, it is useful but it is not as predictable.

    That is why I prefer Roar to Bash. I don't know how many other ways I can re-word my opinion to make it understandable. You don't have to agree, but my opinions are completely valid.

    "for a solo veno, its pretty useless"

    on the basis that for a veno playing alone, roar is useless, why a veno buy a herc and get it themselves?

    Player's buy equipment to enhance their own usefulness, and it is quite rare that 1 player is in the same squad all the time. a veno with roar on their herc will be unable to grind with the herc, because it will not have an aggro skill. The (very expensive) tool that the veno paid for will be useful ONLY IN PARTIES, and even in those parties the herc will be less effective at holding agro, though more effective at gaining it back.

    so a veno buys a herc, puts roar on it, and now has a $200 pet that is useless unless they are in a party with DDs that do massive damage and cant control their damage output.

    you like it in your parties because the DD's pull aggro off the herc, if this was not the case there would be no reason for desiring it.

    DD's who pull aggro are DDs that do not know how to control their damage.

    If you want the herc that is useful only in parties that you are in that cant control their damage output, less useful in all other situations, then you, or the party should be buying the herc, or giving the veno the money to put lvl 5 roar on while squad-ed with you and to put lvl 5 bash on when the party disbands.

    Roar seems like it is a better skill to have in your parties, but for general and solo use, bash wins. And unless you have a pet veno who only uses her herc when in squad with you, its a pretty unfair expectation that they should nerf the general effectiveness of their investment for a marginal benefit in squads that cant control their damage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I know this is completely off topic, but has anyone noticed how a herc's attacks can sometimes seemed ranged? Sometimes it looks like he's attacking up close, and sometimes it looked far away from the mob.
    >.<

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