Stream of Rejuvenation vs Ironheart Blessing

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2010

Had this happen a few days back while in TT 1-3:

Introduction
We were in the TT 1-3 instance at the drumboss and with a lvl 71 cleric, who had some trouble healing the barb. Cleric using Iron Heart Blessing (IH) to heal the barb, but couldn’t keep up with the damage, barb dies.
So I ask the other cleric if he has Stream of Rejuvenation (SoR) and what level. He says he has it at lvl 7, but doesn’t use it because the channeling time is bad. I ask him to use it anyway, which other cleric doesn’t respond to and he goes AFK. Apparently he’s thinking it’s a stupid request and I take over healing the barb.
I decided to make this post comparing the 2 heals on their merits and drawbacks, since there seems to be some disagreement on the usefulness in certain conditions.

Formulas
(ref: etacomb : http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php)

*Iron heart Blessing (IH) at maximum level ( channel 1s| cast 1s | cool 1s) : 714HP + 0,3 x base magic attack (over 15 s)
(Sage/ Demon version : 1200 HP + 0.35 x base magic attack (over 15 s))

* Stream of Rejuvenation : ( channel 2,5s| cast 1s | cool 1s)
Lvl 1: 690 HP +0.23 base magic attack + 690 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl2: 750 HP +0.26 base magic attack + 750 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl3: 810 HP +0.29 base magic attack + 810 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl4: 870 HP +0.32 base magic attack + 870 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl5: 930 HP +0.35 base magic attack + 930 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl6: 990 HP +0.38 base magic attack + 990 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl7: 1050 HP +0.41 base magic attack + 1050 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl8: 1110 HP +0.44 base magic attack + 1110 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl9: 1170 HP +0.47 base magic attack + 1170 HP (over 15 s)
Lvl10: 1230 HP +0.5 base magic attack + 1230 HP (over 15 s)

To adjust for the difference in cycle times while spamming ( channel| cast| cooldown ), the effect of IH has been multiplied by 4,5/ 3,0= 3/2 to calculate the healing effect in a 4,5 s period, in order to make the effects comparable between SoR and IH.

Results
At a certain base magic attack level the healing effects over time of IH and SoR are comparable. The base magic attack at which the effect is the same at different levels of SoR are depicted in the graph.
[URL="[IMG]http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Pale_Vella/pwi/SoR-IH.jpg[/IMG]"]

[/URL]

At lvl1 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 1405 with heal 1703 HP
At lvl2 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 2258 with heal 2087 HP
At lvl3 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 3431 with heal 2615 HP
At lvl4 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 5146 with heal 3387 HP
At lvl5 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 7890 with heal 4622 HP
At lvl6 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 12986 with heal 6915 HP
At lvl7 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 25725 with heal 12647 HP
At lvl8 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 114900 with heal 52776 HP
At lvl9 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : -634500 with heal -27481 HP
At lvl10 SoR: IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : -27780 with heal -11430 HP

The graph approaches a limit between lvl 8 and 9 SoR and goes to an infinite base magic attack to have a similar effect of SoR and IH. Ofcourse a negative base magic attack and negative heal are not possible and are merely depicted to show where the formulas render a similar result.

Comparing standard SoR to the Sage/Demon version of IH shows the following:
[URL="[IMG]http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Pale_Vella/pwi/SoR-Sage_Demon_IH.jpg[/IMG]"]

[/URL]
At lvl1 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 1047 with approx. heal 1542 HP
At lvl2 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 1619 with approx. heal 1799 HP
At lvl3 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 2326 with approx. heal 2122 HP
At lvl4 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 3263 with approx. heal 2540 HP
At lvl5 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 4509 with approx. heal 3100 HP
At lvl6 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 6269 with approx. heal 3892 HP
At lvl7 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 8948 with approx. heal 5098 HP
At lvl8 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 13518 with approx. heal 7154 HP
At lvl9 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 23073 with approx. heal 11454HP
At lvl10 SoR: Sage/Demon IH and SoR are similar at base magic attack : 55560 with approx. heal 26073 HP

Discussion
The advantage of SoR over IH comes with a cost. There is a higher mana use per second and the channeling time makes SoR more vulnerable to interruption. However in conditions where this does not occur such as most AOE’s and non-stunning bosses the healing effect can be higher depending on the level of SoR and the base magic attack of the player.

The base magic attack at which IH is better then SoR rises exponentially and in most cases beyond lvl 4-5 for lower level playes or lvl 6 for high lvl players, IH is not better then SoR in respect to healing effect. At lvl 8 SoR, standard IH can not achieve identical results as SoR.

Sage Demon versions of IH have a better healing effect, but still require a very high base magic attack to be comparable to the highest levels of SoR. (>lvl8) . Additional advantages, such as MP recovery or an additional 10% HP recovery make the Sage/Demon versions competitive compared to SoR with a lower MP cost during casting

In general the main reason for initially trying to use IH is to reduce mana cost, which is much higher in SoR. When IH is sufficient, there isn’t a need to apply SoR, it would more likely make charms tick since the drop in HP over the time to channel SoR is higher (with tanks at >10k HP, this is usually not a problem). Especially using the Sage/ Demon versions of IH very high healing capability at low mana cost can be achieved with some additional bonuses and in these versions maximum levels of SoR would only give a slightly better result at much higher cost. However for standard IH, the healing effect is not comparable with SoR at higher levels and the main indication for IH when having SoR at higher levels (>=7) would be to either reduce the chance of interruption or to reduce mana cost. When more healing power is required, to either catch up with damage or to spam heal, SoR would still be preferable compared to standard IH.

Conclusion: Stream of Rejuvenation at higher levels is a useful skill compared to Iron heart Blessing despite it’s obvious cost and channeling time. Don’t be afraid to use it.

EDIT: link to etacomb, corrected text for instant heal and heal over time

Aadi - Lost City · February 2010

Using Stream cancels Ironheart's heal over time, so using both at once is never a good idea. b:surrender

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2010

Aadi - Lost City wrote: »

Using Stream cancels Ironheart's heal over time, so using both at once is never a good idea. b:surrender

can you back that up?
b:puzzled

Balthier - Dreamweaver · February 2010

I don't know about Stream cancelling IHs heal over time, I never heard that before though.

What I do know is that your calculations are based upon wrong numbers.

Stream of Rejuvenation (at lvl 10) instantly heals for 50% of your base mag atk +1230 hp, then an additional 1230 hp over 15s.

Which means it is great as an emergency heal, when the tank is getting to 50% or lower HP, since it heals an incredible amount instantly. But its heal over time is pretty sad, not making it viable to spam.

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2010

Balthier - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't know about Stream cancelling IHs heal over time, I never heard that before though.

What I do know is that your calculations are based upon wrong numbers.

Stream of Rejuvenation (at lvl 10) instantly heals for 50% of your base mag atk +1230 hp, then an additional 1230 hp over 15s.
Which means it is great as an emergency heal, when the tank is getting to 50% or lower HP, since it heals an incredible amount instantly. But its heal over time is pretty sad, not making it viable to spam.

actually as you can tell from the formulas I used, this:
"Stream of Rejuvenation (at lvl 10) instantly heals for 50% of your base mag atk +1230 hp, then an additional 1230 hp over 15s. "
is actually used in the calculation to compare to lvl 10 IH, and Stream is better in that case. The total HP that is recovered is the same, but you are right the time dependent heal are corrected, thank you.

I compared different levels of Stream of rejuvenation to lvl 10 Ironheart blessing if you read correctly, this to compare at which level and which base magic attack Stream becomes better.

If you feel I have made a calculation error, please post your calculation below

b:thanks

EDIT: I see your point though, the time dependent part is greater in IH, giving you a larger buffer of healing over time, but the total amount you heal is less. This would seem more of an advantage to IH Sage Demon versions then to the standerd one compared to Stream of Rejuvenation. Not disregarding IH, but merely pointing out that Stream of Rejuvenation can be useful.

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · February 2010

if somebody dont percieve usefulness of SoR then he gotta be veno x(

Kawakami - Dreamweaver · February 2010

How on earth can you not keep up with heals in a 1-3 run ? Did he constantly heal ? Did he have low mag attack ? Or was there no BB up at drum boss + soulbanisher ? Up until now I always used IH as my main heal, and an occasional stream.. Haven't been in FB99, TT3-2 and 3-3 or Warsong/Lunar glade though.

And I tested stream + ih and it seems to cancel each other out.. Right after stream I casted IH, and the HoT should've started already which it didnt, because I casted IH..

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2010

Kawakami - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How on earth can you not keep up with heals in a 1-3 run ? Did he constantly heal ? Did he have low mag attack ? Or was there no BB up at drum boss + soulbanisher ? Up until now I always used IH as my main heal, and an occasional stream.. Haven't been in FB99, TT3-2 and 3-3 or Warsong/Lunar glade though.

And I tested stream + ih and it seems to cancel each other out.. Right after stream I casted IH, and the HoT should've started already which it didnt, because I casted IH..

Not really sure why he couldn't keep up, he spammed IH and AOE hadn't started yet. maybe low magic attck, I don't know.
Do you have any idea how long it took before you could cast SoR? Might be useful to calculate at which level SoR would be similar to IH in that respect. But I suspect that even with a delay SOr would still heal more because of the very high base magic attack requirement to make IH comparable to SoR at higher levels. Can't really tell though without an indication of the delay time...

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · February 2010

depends on tank much

if he dont cancel at all and every channel get hit for 80% hp then, there may be a problem..

SoR is ideal in those cases: u just throw 2-3 IHs and channel SoR or two, and there- u have brand new full hp barb

slow recharging whole HP with dozen of IHs (especially when at some point ih stacks will start to overwrite each other) seems bad idea for me

Vivre - Harshlands · February 2010

I don't think they're supposed to cancel each other out-- could it be a timing problem? I've never noticed IH and SoR canceling each other. I imagine if I threw a SoR during a really tough boss that canceled my IH stacks, the tank would die much faster... which hasn't happened yet.

From my recent experience of healing a 70 barb for 2-2 wurlord: substancia.. SoR stacks are much more effective than IHs (and much more expensive).

Euphy - Dreamweaver · February 2010

I love Stream of Rejuvenation, but it is slow, exhausting, and impractical for prolonged healing. If Wellspring is the emergency heal for squishies in danger, then Rejuv. Stream is the emergency heal for a struggling tank. So in that since there isn't a Ironheart vs. Rejuv. Stream in that sense. They have different uses. However, in TW if you can recover someone with Stream of Rejuvenation they'll love you!

Paramedic - Dreamweaver · February 2010

SoR is pretty cool if u dd also

Irage - Sanctuary · February 2010

Yes, stream of rejuv can outheal IH, but only if the initial heal of stream of rejuv is applied. Due to the longer channeling time, channeling reduction equippment will improve stream of rejuv more than it will improve IH.

IH is cheaper in mana. The other advantage of IH is the ability to stack it even when the tank's hp is maxed. A disadvantage is that some bosses debuff which makes IH end before applying it's full heal over time.

The healing overtime of stream of rejuv uses the same icon as IH. They do overwrite each other and stack only with themselves.

Xoria - Sanctuary · February 2010

b:chuckle Spells like Stream of Rejuvenation and Chromatic Healing Beam, plus the lack of healing power Demon has over Sage is why I am a channel freak.

Stream's regeneration effect does not cancel out Iron's regeneration effect. It might be a bit decreased, but it's not made null and void. This I found in Warsong keeping our barb alive against Lich and Cannonfist using Demon IronHeart and Demon Stream of Rejuvenation back to back as a healing macro. Not to mention the doubled equipment defense value makes including demon stream quite valuable.

Whereas I can pull of Stream on the fly and usual reserve it for when I KNOW the barb is going to die with just any other healing spell and IH won't kick in fast enough, those with less channel need to take note of:

Barb's HP loss in a certain amount of time;
How long stream will take to cast;
How long stream will take to cast again until you can continue with IH or another healing spell.

RedsRose - Lost City · February 2010

SoR is essentially for catching up to continue with IH and Well.

Like mentioned above, if the boss is in an extra bad mood or the tank is struggling, you can use SoR to catch the Tank's health up to full and then continue with your "normal" heals.

If you use SoR ALL the time, you are only wasting mp since it can cost a lot and you are also potentially putting the tank at risk due to the longer channeling time (versus IH and Well).

I do use it and love this heal, but it is not something that I am constantly using. It works best for those Tank's that do not have a charm.

Skybelle - Sanctuary · February 2010

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:chuckle Spells like Stream of Rejuvenation and Chromatic Healing Beam, plus the lack of healing power Demon has over Sage is why I am a channel freak.

Stream's regeneration effect does not cancel out Iron's regeneration effect. It might be a bit decreased, but it's not made null and void. This I found in Warsong keeping our barb alive against Lich and Cannonfist using Demon IronHeart and Demon Stream of Rejuvenation back to back as a healing macro. Not to mention the doubled equipment defense value makes including demon stream quite valuable.

Whereas I can pull of Stream on the fly and usual reserve it for when I KNOW the barb is going to die with just any other healing spell and IH won't kick in fast enough, those with less channel need to take note of:

Barb's HP loss in a certain amount of time;
How long stream will take to cast;
How long stream will take to cast again until you can continue with IH or another healing spell.

Your channeling scares me. b:surrender
On Topic: SR is good for sticky situations when the tank is dying and IH and Wellspring cannot keep up with the health. Even with it's long casting time, I still find it one of my useful heals.

I like Chromatic Healing Beam just because of it's pretty animation. But then I use it when I go for full BH 69s (since not a lot of people offer Pyro BH only).

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2010

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:chuckle Spells like Stream of Rejuvenation and Chromatic Healing Beam, plus the lack of healing power Demon has over Sage is why I am a channel freak.

Stream's regeneration effect does not cancel out Iron's regeneration effect. It might be a bit decreased, but it's not made null and void. This I found in Warsong keeping our barb alive against Lich and Cannonfist using Demon IronHeart and Demon Stream of Rejuvenation back to back as a healing macro. Not to mention the doubled equipment defense value makes including demon stream quite valuable.

Whereas I can pull of Stream on the fly and usual reserve it for when I KNOW the barb is going to die with just any other healing spell and IH won't kick in fast enough, those with less channel need to take note of:

Barb's HP loss in a certain amount of time;
How long stream will take to cast;
How long stream will take to cast again until you can continue with IH or another healing spell.

I wish I had -42% channeling... b:dirty
Good to know they don't cancel eachother out completely. Maybe, like Irage said, you loose the stacking you built up by using IH ( or delay the next stack due to longer channeling of Stream of rejuvenation ) that makes it seem like the time dependent heal is less? This would explain a lot.

I tried it out a couple of times when I knew for sure the barb would be ok and I could catch up fast, and tried to check for a time dependent part of the heal, but the heal was in most cases to strong to see the effect of the time dependent part. Otherwise I would have to let HP drop below 50% of a barbs HP (risking a charm tick) to see it; this is something I rather not try out.

b:surrender

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · February 2010

_Pale - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wish I had -42% channeling...

lol you dont want anything over 35% channeling if your doing any healing. Maybe excluding SoR, but youll glitch like crazy as your spells cant keep up with the speed and cool down. I thought it was just for clerics but my veno friend saw some similar effects. Atm if you have 6% channeling things and the TT combo bonus channeling, if u add a channeling hat, it should be fairly easy to get to 52% channeling.

Xoria - Sanctuary · February 2010

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol you dont want anything over 35% channeling if your doing any healing. Maybe excluding SoR, but youll glitch like crazy as your spells cant keep up with the speed and cool down. I thought it was just for clerics but my veno friend saw some similar effects. Atm if you have 6% channeling things and the TT combo bonus channeling, if u add a channeling hat, it should be fairly easy to get to 52% channeling.

Wish I had the TT channel bonus and a 6% channeling ring. b:laugh Never ran into glitches O_o My cyclone> plume shot attack macro broke long ago when plume shot became demon. b:surrender Channeling and cool down go down with the gear. Maybe not as noticable as the channel, but enough to keep most macros still working.

Irage - Sanctuary · February 2010

Does casting ironheart followed by stream of rejuvination leave the tank with only the heal over time of stream or of both skills? This has been asked before.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=509852

The answer is not clear in the forums. Different people state different responses. I would be interested to hear if Deceptistar's opinion has changed.

Ahira - Lost City · February 2010

Irage - Sanctuary wrote: »

Does casting ironheart followed by stream of rejuvination leave the tank with only the heal over time of stream or of both skills? This has been asked before.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=509852

The answer is not clear in the forums. Different people state different responses. I would be interested to hear if Deceptistar's opinion has changed.

I dont tend to use SoR (seem to get by perfectly well using IH and wellspring) but I thought someone confirmed the heal over time from SoR did overwrite IH?

It shouldnt be too hard to verify this. I'll run an experiment when I get back from uni... and we shall let science decide! b:shy

Ahira - Lost City · February 2010

kk i checked it- i'll make another thread later to make it easier if people want to refer to it at some later date.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · February 2010

Irage - Sanctuary wrote: »

Does casting ironheart followed by stream of rejuvination leave the tank with only the heal over time of stream or of both skills? This has been asked before.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=509852

The answer is not clear in the forums. Different people state different responses. I would be interested to hear if Deceptistar's opinion has changed.

i wish i could test it out on a barb :O i think ill ask my friend and see how it goes. There are many interrupting factors so i wanna get some clean info

_Pale - Sanctuary · February 2010

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

kk i checked it- i'll make another thread later to make it easier if people want to refer to it at some later date.

thank you...:)
b:thanks

Stream of Rejuvenation vs Ironheart Blessing

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