LA mage vs venos

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/Slash - Lost City
/Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
edited February 2010 in Wizard
Just curious if anyone has any tips. I've had plenty of experience beating every other class quite easily since hitting Lv80. Archers are 1 or 2 hit kills who I can tank indefinitely, Barbs eat 8500 damage or more per Sutra combo, other mages (since they're usually robe) eat a sparked Blade Tempest.

As far as skills I do have Undine, don't have the Sleep yet but I'm getting it today, my gear is decent (and I have a backup set of Arcane armor that I can switch into on the fly), and I don't want a discussion about LA vs AA nor do I want complaints about "well venos are just overpowered."

Every veno I've fought has either been 9x+ who caught me off guard -- and I was nix-stunned and dead before I knew it, with only about 2000 damage even showing up in my log despite the fact that I have over 3500 hp unbuffed... or it's been 6x (or lower) which are guaranteed 1-hit kills for me. Haven't had a lot of experience fighting venos on even ground and I'd like some tips on strategy.

My genie is kind of up in the air at the moment. I'm getting a new one soon with a few more Luck points, and I do have both Badge of Courage and Cauterize, but I've never actually used (or had time to use) Cauterize before getting killed by high level nixes, even with 7300 pdef fully buffed. Mostly my problem is lack of experience fighting venos who aren't 9x-10x, but yeah.. tips? Bearing in mind that I am Lv8x with Undine and soon to have Sleep skill as well.

Also, I know that "know thy opponent" is a good idea, since I've seen AA, LA, and HA venos and strategies probably differ for all three. The HAs presumably I should just, you know, attack directly and kill in 1 or 2 hits... since I haven't seen many venos with great max HP counts, the Heavy Armor ones should drop like rocks. But I'm looking for tips against any veno, around my level, of unknown armor type, presumably with a nix (since, let's face it, every veno has one -- and of course it was earned through hard work, the 9 to 5 kind b:chuckle).

Thanks.
Post edited by /Slash - Lost City on

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  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I'm arcane.. but I've used a method which should work decently for LA mages too. I'm going to assume you mean equal leveled veno's, meaning you should have enough pdef/hp to absorb a bleed. I personally prefer always being in the air too, so I can drop when needed.

    I usually dealt with them by kiting a lot at the start, trying to get the nix to waste it's stun, because it's generally what makes them deadly, 3 seconds of stun and an attackrate increase. If you live through that and let your hiero recover, or heal up if you don't have one and aren't dead yet, you can use Nullify poison to resist anything the veno is going to throw at you. Especially for LA, that's pretty useful since a lot of the damage comes from the wood magic, and the phoenix can't stun you + the veno can't do anything to you. Meaning you should safely be able to use sutra or something else to focus either the nix or veno, whichever you find easier to kill.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »
    I'm arcane.. but I've used a method which should work decently for LA mages too. I'm going to assume you mean equal leveled veno's, meaning you should have enough pdef/hp to absorb a bleed. I personally prefer always being in the air too, so I can drop when needed.

    I usually dealt with them by kiting a lot at the start, trying to get the nix to waste it's stun, because it's generally what makes them deadly, 3 seconds of stun and an attackrate increase. If you live through that and let your hiero recover, or heal up if you don't have one and aren't dead yet, you can use Nullify poison to resist anything the veno is going to throw at you. Especially for LA, that's pretty useful since a lot of the damage comes from the wood magic, and the phoenix can't stun you + the veno can't do anything to you. Meaning you should safely be able to use sutra or something else to focus either the nix or veno, whichever you find easier to kill.

    Nullify poison? what is it? apothecary?
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  • _makina_ - Sanctuary
    _makina_ - Sanctuary Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Nullify poison? what is it? apothecary?

    Genie skill. 3 wood affinity. Makes you immune to wood based skills for like 7 seconds when maxed. Its right above extreme poison on the genie skill menu. I have it on my HA veno for when I play with other venos b:pleased.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Nullify poison? what is it? apothecary?

    genie skill :) immune to wood dmg
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  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Ooo I see. Ty much.b:chuckle
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Cool, sounds good so far. I'm open to other tips as well, but yeah, I also know the mechanics of venos even worse than I know the mechanics of most other classes (for instance I didn't know how nix stun fully operated). I don't have a hiero (yet; not worth the investment IMO while I still spend a decent amount of time leveling instead of PKing) but I do occasionally use those event pots for fun which should give me plenty of tanking ability if I can survive that stun.

    Thinking I might want to use Badge of Courage (break stun) and dist shrink when the nix uses stun, but I almost always find myself wishing I'd saved my genie energy for Second Wind instead of using it to break a short duration stun...

    Also, is there any way to see when nix uses its stun if the stun doesn't succeed (I assume it's not 100% success rate)? Sounds like after the stun is used, it's time to heal and go to town on the veno if I can. That said, a lot of venos these days just fly away and send nix after you, kind of like the sins who stealth when they realize they're about to die. Or the LA mages who can holy path and dist shrink all over the map when they're fighting someone who's using a boring stall tactic like those ;)

    edit: i also have no idea how i'd fit that skill into my genie. I'm looking into buying a 5-skill-ready genie soon, but there are way too many skills I want. Second Wind, Holy Path are no brainers for my build; I'd also like Badge of Courage to break stunlocks if need be. I'd kind of like to have Extreme Poison and/or Cauterize, and Occult Ice is a nice skill I've never had (but it effectively stuns; it's not just a freeze). Then there's Absolute Domain (at higher levels)...and of course Nullify Poison now. Tough choices.
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Yeah, you can see the phoenix use a certain animation when it casts the stun, and a circle around your feet will show similar to a barb's phys att buff.


    You could replace cauterize with nullify poison... both are anti-veno. Second wind and event pots should cover the damage done by a equal level nix.


    And you can't combine Badge of courage and Occult Ice properly... both have a low base succesrate, but BoC requires 2 dex for each 1% increase, Occult Ice needs 2 str for 1%. You can't mix STR and DEX genie skills unless you sacrifice VIT/MAG, in which case your genie won't be very useful in general... So try figuring out which way you want to go.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Good call Kristoph. I already use STR for Second Wind so I might try Occult Ice. Honestly Badge of Courage is nice but I find heals to be more useful when I get stunned, than simply breaking stun a second or two early. Besides mages can just mash Dist Shrink when stunned and get away as soon as they're out of it.

    Second Wind, Holy Path, Occult Ice, probably Nullify Poison, probably Extreme Poison. Sounds like a decent skill set. I know a lot of mages also choose Frenzy but that doesn't really seem to mesh as well with Light Armor playstyle.
  • Mahdust - Harshlands
    Mahdust - Harshlands Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    /Slash - Lost City wrote: »
    Good call Kristoph. I already use STR for Second Wind so I might try Occult Ice. Honestly Badge of Courage is nice but I find heals to be more useful when I get stunned, than simply breaking stun a second or two early. Besides mages can just mash Dist Shrink when stunned and get away as soon as they're out of it.

    Second Wind, Holy Path, Occult Ice, probably Nullify Poison, probably Extreme Poison. Sounds like a decent skill set. I know a lot of mages also choose Frenzy but that doesn't really seem to mesh as well with Light Armor playstyle.

    Frenzy lowers your defenses more than reasonably (so LA/AA doesn't really matter) for the same damage amp as extreme poison. The only thing that makes it good is for AoEing, as poison is single target only and frenzy amps your damage on all the targets.
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  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    True, but I meant AA in general (from what I've seen) tend to go a little more along the glass cannon route, "kill or be killed" which Frenzy lends itself well to.

    TBH I had forgotten all about Nullify Poison. That's going to make a lot of venos ticked, especially if I can tank the nix's bleed. Also, I have to say I'm impressed with the Sleep skill, my only gripe is the short range on it. The cooldown isn't a huge deal since I don't rely on its regular usage... but it makes a great setup for Blade Tempest since the target can't move (unlike FoW).
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Frenzy is more of a group pvp skill... for 1v1 it's only useful if you really want to make that ult count with both ex poison, frenzy, undine, sleep and whatever else you feel like adding.


    I personally think Occult Ice is no longer a good skill for mages, even if you get an 80 str genie the succesrate is like 70%... I wouldn't really bet my life on that. I used it back when it was dex based, but it had a better chance of working at the time. I'd probably pick Ex Poison over that, but it's still a matter of preference.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • Foxymage - Harshlands
    Foxymage - Harshlands Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »
    Yeah, you can see the phoenix use a certain animation when it casts the stun, and a circle around your feet will show similar to a barb's phys att buff.
    but nix uses that animation for all its skills(well not sure all skills but bleed it dose)
    You could replace cauterize with nullify poison... both are anti-veno. Second wind and event pots should cover the damage done by a equal level nix.


    And you can't combine Badge of courage and Occult Ice properly... both have a low base succesrate, but BoC requires 2 dex for each 1% increase, Occult Ice needs 2 str for 1%. You can't mix STR and DEX genie skills unless you sacrifice VIT/MAG, in which case your genie won't be very useful in general... So try figuring out which way you want to go.

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  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    That circle only shows under my feet if a nix tries to stun me... so not sure what you're talking about.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • XMidKnight - Lost City
    XMidKnight - Lost City Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    A nix ur level should die in about 3-4 hits.
    I like WoP on nixes as u can finally make use of that knockback.
    Personally. If you are striking first u should attack nix and use FoW or Sutra and Nullify Posion so veno cant hurt you. 7 seconds is more than enough. Then 1v1 Mage > Veno for m.attack unless ur fighting a cash shop veno.

    Most venos will fly away in an attempt to res the nix or drop down and holy path.
    Always a good idea to hit the veno once with a quick skill like gush to see what build they are so u can decide quickly what skills ur gonna use.
  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    I usually don't strike first (not RPKing much), but I had forgotten about using knockback on the nix, with a fast animation that should work pretty well. I'll keep an eye out for that stun. Bleed definitely doesn't show properly in log though, died to an RPKing 9x veno last night, saw 1000 and 900 damage from veno (I didn't get my Nullify Poison genie yet), and a tick of 500 or something from the nix. Considering even if my buff got removed I still have 3600 hp... that 2400 damage certainly wasn't enough to kill me, so something's not showing up properly. The damage does seem to pour in at first though.

    As for genie skill, I have room for both Occult Ice and Nullify Poison, so I figure why not? I might replace Occult Ice later with Absolute Domain or something. Not sure what else I'd put in there alongside Second Wind, Holy Path, Nullify Poison and Exteme Poison, at least with the current Affinities available.
  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Occult Ice is hovering around a 55% success rate with my current genie, and I didn't spend much spirit on it yet, so I might end up ditching it. I'm open to other options if anyone has any suggestions. Going with Holy Path, Second Wind, Extreme Poison, Nullify Poison for sure... and one more.
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Domain is always an option for the last slot... or something like fortify, cauterize, frenzy or cloud eruption.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • Xprestigex - Harshlands
    Xprestigex - Harshlands Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    the nix bleed dosn't count in the damage log, so sometimes you don't see all the dmg there. Its annoying, but a fact of life
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  • Axisboldone - Heavens Tear
    Axisboldone - Heavens Tear Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    lvl 95 plus LA wizards still exist? For real?

    Crazy, I'll say a prayer for um.
  • /Slash - Lost City
    /Slash - Lost City Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Not 95+ yet, but I intend to remain LA. In MMOs I've always played tankmage style characters and it's always worked well. I prefer to run across the occasional player I can't kill, and remain nearly impossible to kill myself, than be able to kill all and BE killed by all.

    There's no shortage of rhetoric on behalf of AA mages to assert they're not glass cannons, and I believe them -- to a point. However, you don't equip LA and somehow LOSE survivability (as some AA's with crazy refined gear will cite they have higher pdef and higher HP than LA mages altogether)... with an equal level of refining and shards, there's no way LA doesn't have higher survivability all-around.

    I'm fully aware damage machine is better (AA) for TW's and even in some 1v1 situations, but I still prefer to err on the side of being able to tank. Not to mention I have yet to be convinced LA suffers much in terms of lost damage, seeing as how I'm 1-hitting average geared 8x LA's and AA's easily and taking healthy chunks from HA.

    To be clear, this isn't an AA vs LA flamewar, save that for Sage vs Demon threads. AA certainly has its advantages. All I'm asserting is that both AA and LA have their merits for different playstyles so that it's not simply a no-brainer "lol everyone goes AA". In mass PvP where AOEs get launched often and you can hide behind a wall of melees, there's no doubt that more damage is better, i.e. TW situations. But that's not the only mode of PK I'm focused on. I like being able to fight an archer and not have to worry about "what if they crit?" because I can tank several even-level archer crits in a single fight. Even though I'm LA, archers are lucky to last more than 1 crit against me ;)
  • Kristoph - Lost City
    Kristoph - Lost City Posts: 2,016 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    /Slash - Lost City wrote: »
    Not 95+ yet, but I intend to remain LA. In MMOs I've always played tankmage style characters and it's always worked well. I prefer to run across the occasional player I can't kill, and remain nearly impossible to kill myself, than be able to kill all and BE killed by all.

    There's no shortage of rhetoric on behalf of AA mages to assert they're not glass cannons, and I believe them -- to a point. However, you don't equip LA and somehow LOSE survivability (as some AA's with crazy refined gear will cite they have higher pdef and higher HP than LA mages altogether)... with an equal level of refining and shards, there's no way LA doesn't have higher survivability all-around.
    You end up having to split pdef and mdef ornaments on top of the horrible base stats Light Armor gives you. Magic hits so hard lategame.. other mages, clerics, veno's and probably even psy's will murder you. Your damage is also lacking badly... unless you cash shop +10-12.


    If you want to know how bad LA is... an equal level LA wizard died to undine -> pyrogram -> gush crit. Roughly same refines as me, though his weapon is refined higher... Getting hit for over 2k by normal gush/pyro's is horrible.
    Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    /Slash - Lost City wrote: »

    There's no shortage of rhetoric on behalf of AA mages to assert they're not glass cannons, and I believe them -- to a point. However, you don't equip LA and somehow LOSE survivability (as some AA's with crazy refined gear will cite they have higher pdef and higher HP than LA mages altogether)... with an equal level of refining and shards, there's no way LA doesn't have higher survivability all-around.

    LA does lose survivability. With just robe armors (without ornaments cape etc) you end up with high magic def and low pdef, so arcane types use both pdef ornaments and go for pdef mods to end up with high mdef and good pdef. LA on the other hand has moderate (if you can call it that) pdef and mdef.. They end up needing both mdef and pdef.. and there is really no way to get both defenses up at the same time. On top of that, the refining bonus you get on LA is not that much better than arcane.. but the resistances alone give arcane better survivability even if they have slightly less hp. You also need to remember that LA doesn't leave you with any bonus stats, arcane will leave you with ~150 pts that you can put into whatever you want (generally magic.. which increases not only your damage but your magic resists as well) or you could put some in vit (like I did) and you then have more pdef/mdef AND hp than LA... along with more damage.

    Of course you could argue that LA could have different ornaments, but no matter what they use, they will be squishy to something. Both mdef ornaments means they will have pathetic pdef, both pdef and they will have bad mdef.. and one of each and they will both be lower than arcane.

    There are only 2 reasons anyone should even consider LA
    #1. 4-5% bonus crit
    #2. Ability to use channeling belt/neck while still having more than a couple hundred pdef.
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  • Ilmr - Lost City
    Ilmr - Lost City Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited February 2010
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    Less damage is less survivability too. Your 1k HP and 2k pdef from LA and HP Helms means **** if it takes you 4 more hits to kill people because you do 500 less damage per hit.


    Nice sig Adroit <33

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