Changing trends in BM weapon paths
Comments
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Draeyos - Lost City wrote: »Not to be negative, but from the looks of it trying to make a good BM seems costly and too much dam work for a game. Honestly if it take all that to be considered decent/good, Idk if i even wanna lv my BM anymore.
Although I could be misunderstanding what you guys are saying and willing to give up too easy.
A BM can be good easily, it takes a ton of money to make a great bm. TBH if you want to make an awesome fist bm you'll need a ton of cash. But if you're content with not having 5 atk/s then it shouldn't be too bad cost wise0 -
A "great" bm? ^^
I see players from the top factions in +4-5 tt90 green and legendary mold ornaments/cape. And they've been like that for months. Do you really need to be THAT rich to "hit the top"? Heavy cash shoppers aren't as common as you think. The idea that everyone above 85 in a TW faction who's decent has 500m worth of gear is a complete illusion born from panic and over competitiveness. Yes +10 gear players do exist, but they're a tiny minority that you'd be silly to try compare yourself to unless you're also rich.0 -
_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »A "great" bm? ^^
I see players from the top factions in +4-5 tt90 green and legendary mold ornaments/cape. And they've been like that for months. Do you really need to be THAT rich to "hit the top"? Heavy cash shoppers aren't as common as you think. The idea that everyone above 85 in a TW faction who's decent has 500m worth of gear is a complete illusion born from panic and over competitiveness. Yes +10 gear players do exist, but they're a tiny minority that you'd be silly to try compare yourself to unless you're also rich.
I never said that everybody in a top TW faction has ridiculous gear. I'm in a competitive TW faction and I know plenty of people with +4-5 gear. I'm talking about individual as opposed to faction. Yes you may be a part of the best faction on your server, but that doesn't mean that you yourself are the best player or even close to that. There are plenty of average bms who have +4-5 gear and you can TW fine with that. However in order to be a great BM PvP wise you need very good gear. Since you're still 8x I'm guessing you haven't had a lot of experience pvping against people who severely outgear you. If you choose to PvP then most of the time you will be facing the players with the best gear; players with just average gear simply don't PvP as much.
Take fists for example. Great PvP weapon if you have the funds for it. Exactly how much money do you need to get 5 atk/s?
Lunar Cape - 50 mil
Scroll of Tome - 150 mil
4 pieces of TT99- 100-150 mil
Lunar Claw - 50 mil
So far that's 350-400 mil. Now include shards/refines and you can go way above 500 mil without even considering your other gear such as helmet or ornaments.
Simple fact is that PvP in this game is 80% gear and 20% skill. It doesn't matter how good I am or how adept I am at using my character, when the Wiz that I'm fighting can 1 shot me without even triple sparking, there's no chance for me to win. How do you think the Lost City map got completely taken over? Definitely wasn't a guild full of 90's with +4-5 gear.
BMs are the probably the most expensive class to fund PvP wise. You need to multipath in order to be successful. That means multiple weapons, which all need to be sharded/refined. Whereas other classes such as archers or wiz can just spam skills with a +5 weapon and kill us, we can't just stunlock with our +5 axes and kill them. If you're content with staying solely PvE, then not spending much on your BM is fine. If you want to PvP with your BM and not get wrecked constantly you're gonna need to spend a lot on your gear.0 -
my level 86 bm uses all the weapons...but fists/axes are the main weps. i use fists till i have full chi then heavens flame switch to fists and work my way up again
i love fists :)b:cute TheEmpire
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
You don't know what GX is... or do you b:shutup
GX = gang xie and it's the name of the hh90 gold axes made with Belial's gold mat(Ancient devil soul)
There is no such thing as GX sword or fists.. I'm guessing you the hh90 gold sword with berserk and the hh90 gold fist with berserk.
1. my BM isn't at the lvl regarding these ie. the 90+...
2. I sent this link to the BM I run with so he can respond... b:shocked b:avoid
3. Regarding GX I think he refers to them as such cause of the same type of stats on them as the GX axes...I just know that of the two fists that have the same glow...when I look at other BMs they have the Lunar ones not the ones he wears...think it's Budda's Peace...but can't remember...
4. Will wait for him to clear up what I've said.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Filet - Heavens Tear wrote: »I never said that everybody in a top TW faction has ridiculous gear. I'm in a competitive TW faction and I know plenty of people with +4-5 gear. I'm talking about individual as opposed to faction. Yes you may be a part of the best faction on your server, but that doesn't mean that you yourself are the best player or even close to that. There are plenty of average bms who have +4-5 gear and you can TW fine with that. However in order to be a great BM PvP wise you need very good gear. Since you're still 8x I'm guessing you haven't had a lot of experience pvping against people who severely outgear you. If you choose to PvP then most of the time you will be facing the players with the best gear; players with just average gear simply don't PvP as much.
Take fists for example. Great PvP weapon if you have the funds for it. Exactly how much money do you need to get 5 atk/s?
Lunar Cape - 50 mil
Scroll of Tome - 150 mil
4 pieces of TT99- 100-150 mil
Lunar Claw - 50 mil
So far that's 350-400 mil. Now include shards/refines and you can go way above 500 mil without even considering your other gear such as helmet or ornaments.
Simple fact is that PvP in this game is 80% gear and 20% skill. It doesn't matter how good I am or how adept I am at using my character, when the Wiz that I'm fighting can 1 shot me without even triple sparking, there's no chance for me to win. How do you think the Lost City map got completely taken over? Definitely wasn't a guild full of 90's with +4-5 gear.
BMs are the probably the most expensive class to fund PvP wise. You need to multipath in order to be successful. That means multiple weapons, which all need to be sharded/refined. Whereas other classes such as archers or wiz can just spam skills with a +5 weapon and kill us, we can't just stunlock with our +5 axes and kill them. If you're content with staying solely PvE, then not spending much on your BM is fine. If you want to PvP with your BM and not get wrecked constantly you're gonna need to spend a lot on your gear.
Ouch, good point =/
500m+ (most likely 1b taking into account every single piece of gear and refine) is still completely unattainable via grinding and farming. And 1b in coin is roughly $2000-$3000 depending on current gold prices. Is that really the investment needed to consider competitive pk'ing in this game?
I'm guessing the players in top factions with +4-5 gear do like to play competitive PvP and TW, but have no choice, they simply can't afford or refuse to pay an investment of $2-3k in order to avoid being wrecked by heavy cash shoppers. (I mean, if an online game in a computer shop had a $2000 price tag...would you buy it?) And they get into the top factions because the cash shoppers ARE a minority, there simply aren't enough blowing around spare to fill a full faction.
Kinda sad if that's the state of the game imo.0 -
Actually for 5 attacks per second as bm you also have to be demon and have nirvana legs as well. The char sheet figure for attack speed only lists attack speed in .05 interval steps. Your real attack speed is the actual mathematical value for it. Meaning you have to have 4 base attacks per second (-.45 total interval) to get 5 attacks per second with a demon spark. Sage will only ever get this with an rb. Prior to nirvana it was impossible to get 5 attacks per second, the char sheet figure is misleading. If you actually try and get minus interval stuff you will notice inconsistencies in this.
*aside*
At least this is my theory as to how this works, ive been doing testing once i noticed the following strange things with my bm. I got -.15 interval and had 1.82 aps, i used my level 10 cyclone and had 2 attacks per second, which was off by .03 but close enough to seem correct, i upgrade to sage cyclone, and have 2.22 aps listed...wait a second...it should only be 2.093...not 2.22. Then i tried an rb, +25%, still 2.22 (actual 2.27), when clearly 15% and 25% boosts are different. I will experiment more when i scrape up money for another -.05. But an easy way to test all this is to use your chi gain rate. At 2.09 aps it takes 29 seconds roughly to gain 3 sparks, and at 2.22 it takes 27 seconds. Basically, you take a stopwatch and measure how actual time it takes to gain 3 sparks. Mine with my normal speed buff ends up around 30 seconds...which is consistent with 2.09, NOT 2.22. Of course there are a few discrepancies, but the time is too long to be 2.22 aps. Compare the time in an rb and you will notice a difference, even though its supposedly also 2.22. Anyway this would be most easily noticeable by 3-4 base aps because you have the largest gains and not so much guesswork involved. Anyway this is from personal experience, not some **** told to us by some other version of the game by supposed "experts".
...back on topic
And to agree with the above its very very expensive to make an effective bm, the 4 weapons thing is killer. Imma add to the above list with...
Dance of the Universe 60m
Hatchets 50m
Berserk fists specifically for fist skill useage 50m
Refines on the above 300m+
2 lunar rings 140m?
More refines for hp 500m
Some other **** im forgetting 200m
So yeh expensive, but if you do it its awesome if you accomplish it.0 -
RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually for 5 attacks per second as bm you also have to be demon and have nirvana legs as well. The char sheet figure for attack speed only lists attack speed in .05 interval steps. Your real attack speed is the actual mathematical value for it. Meaning you have to have 4 base attacks per second (-.45 total interval) to get 5 attacks per second with a demon spark. Sage will only ever get this with an rb. Prior to nirvana it was impossible to get 5 attacks per second, the char sheet figure is misleading. If you actually try and get minus interval stuff you will notice inconsistencies in this.
*aside*
At least this is my theory as to how this works, ive been doing testing once i noticed the following strange things with my bm. I got -.15 interval and had 1.82 aps, i used my level 10 cyclone and had 2 attacks per second, which was off by .03 but close enough to seem correct, i upgrade to sage cyclone, and have 2.22 aps listed...wait a second...it should only be 2.093...not 2.22. Then i tried an rb, +25%, still 2.22 (actual 2.27), when clearly 15% and 25% boosts are different. I will experiment more when i scrape up money for another -.05. But an easy way to test all this is to use your chi gain rate. At 2.09 aps it takes 29 seconds roughly to gain 3 sparks, and at 2.22 it takes 27 seconds. Basically, you take a stopwatch and measure how actual time it takes to gain 3 sparks. Mine with my normal speed buff ends up around 30 seconds...which is consistent with 2.09, NOT 2.22. Of course there are a few discrepancies, but the time is too long to be 2.22 aps. Compare the time in an rb and you will notice a difference, even though its supposedly also 2.22. Anyway this would be most easily noticeable by 3-4 base aps because you have the largest gains and not so much guesswork involved. Anyway this is from personal experience, not some **** told to us by some other version of the game by supposed "experts".
...back on topic
And to agree with the above its very very expensive to make an effective bm, the 4 weapons thing is killer. Imma add to the above list with...
Dance of the Universe 60m
Hatchets 50m
Berserk fists specifically for fist skill useage 50m
Refines on the above 300m+
2 lunar rings 140m?
More refines for hp 500m
Some other **** im forgetting 200m
So yeh expensive, but if you do it its awesome if you accomplish it.
you need a natural attack rate of 3.33 aps to hit 5 aps with hell spark
only thing zerk fists are really usefull for is bolt imo (still plan to get em though)
sages can get 5 aps with a really really nice geni with relentless courage but no they cant get perma sparkGifs are hard to make work here0 -
nope. if u are saying about dark fury, then u need just -0.4 interval when using fists (thats 0.3 interval in total)RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually for 5 attacks per second as bm you also have to be demon and have nirvana legs as well.
The formula is:
your interval * (100%-increase in attack speed%)
0.3 * (1-0.25) = 0.3 * 0.75 = 0.225
now u are cutting the result to get two digits after dot, so:
0.225 ~ 0.22
now u are rounding it to the nearest valid interval:
0.22 ~ 0.2 (not 0.25, because it closer to 0.2)
end result:
1/0.2 = 5
All was clarify explained here:
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=279561&highlight=attack+speed
but that guy deleted formula and examples, dunno why, still there is some nice info
Now u made me wonder, i will test it out for sure, if the different attack speed buff is rounding only on char screen, but the speed is indeed different, so it gives also more / less chi.RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »(...) At 2.09 aps it takes 29 seconds roughly to gain 3 sparks, and at 2.22 it takes 27 seconds. Basically, you take a stopwatch and measure how actual time it takes to gain 3 sparks. Mine with my normal speed buff ends up around 30 seconds...which is consistent with 2.09, NOT 2.22. Of course there are a few discrepancies, but the time is too long to be 2.22 aps. Compare the time in an rb and you will notice a difference, even though its supposedly also 2.22. Anyway this would be most easily noticeable by 3-4 base aps because you have the largest gains and not so much guesswork involved. Anyway this is from personal experience, not some **** told to us by some other version of the game by supposed "experts".0 -
RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually for 5 attacks per second as bm you also have to be demon and have nirvana legs as well. The char sheet figure for attack speed only lists attack speed in .05 interval steps. Your real attack speed is the actual mathematical value for it. Meaning you have to have 4 base attacks per second (-.45 total interval) to get 5 attacks per second with a demon spark. Sage will only ever get this with an rb. Prior to nirvana it was impossible to get 5 attacks per second, the char sheet figure is misleading. If you actually try and get minus interval stuff you will notice inconsistencies in this.
*aside*
At least this is my theory as to how this works, ive been doing testing once i noticed the following strange things with my bm. I got -.15 interval and had 1.82 aps, i used my level 10 cyclone and had 2 attacks per second, which was off by .03 but close enough to seem correct, i upgrade to sage cyclone, and have 2.22 aps listed...wait a second...it should only be 2.093...not 2.22. Then i tried an rb, +25%, still 2.22 (actual 2.27), when clearly 15% and 25% boosts are different. I will experiment more when i scrape up money for another -.05. But an easy way to test all this is to use your chi gain rate. At 2.09 aps it takes 29 seconds roughly to gain 3 sparks, and at 2.22 it takes 27 seconds. Basically, you take a stopwatch and measure how actual time it takes to gain 3 sparks. Mine with my normal speed buff ends up around 30 seconds...which is consistent with 2.09, NOT 2.22. Of course there are a few discrepancies, but the time is too long to be 2.22 aps. Compare the time in an rb and you will notice a difference, even though its supposedly also 2.22. Anyway this would be most easily noticeable by 3-4 base aps because you have the largest gains and not so much guesswork involved. Anyway this is from personal experience, not some **** told to us by some other version of the game by supposed "experts".
...back on topic
And to agree with the above its very very expensive to make an effective bm, the 4 weapons thing is killer. Imma add to the above list with...
Dance of the Universe 60m
Hatchets 50m
Berserk fists specifically for fist skill useage 50m
Refines on the above 300m+
2 lunar rings 140m?
More refines for hp 500m
Some other **** im forgetting 200m
So yeh expensive, but if you do it its awesome if you accomplish it.
You only need base atk speed of 3.33 atk/s + demon spark to reach 5 atk/s, I know a couple people who have 5 atk/s without nirvana gear0 -
Yeah you have 4 attacks base with the legs then 25% added on gives the 5.
Also yeh zerk fists were simply for using cyclone and tyreseus. Considering you spark alot while using fists and tyreseus gets an out the ____ damage increase from spark erupts since of the 260% base in its damage. It is like the perfect attack for use with fists, and nukes very hard at the cost of just 1 spark. Add berserk and that would be amazing. Cyclone hits pretty hard as an aoe also, hitting like less than cleave and more than fissure.
Also relentless courage requires a decked out strength genie and only lasts 8 seconds, consuming almost all the genies energy...hardly worth using it if your sage when there are better skills that will probably give you more damage overall.
25% added onto 3.33 should only be like 4.16 attacks. Considering that its almost impossible to eyeball it the figure on the char sheet is very easy to believe. Id ask your friends to actually find how much chi they gain in a given amount of time and see if it makes sense with 5 attacks. 4.16 yields around 21 chi per second and 5 is 25 chi...so there will be a noticeable difference. Around a 16% slower gain of chi in comparison. Endless triple sparks are still possible with 4 attacks per second with the new 5 chi per hit. Before it was changed to 5 chi per hit the actual figure was only 13.36 chi off of being able to spark constantly, but with human error and at 4 aps yielding 16 chi in 1 second the difference was impossible to notice, considering continuous triple sparking were still possible (1 second between as i said isent noticed).
The only reliable way to test this is to start at 0 chi, then time the amount of time it takes to become full (exactly 3 sparks, do eruption, and go till you fill the bar.) If it is 5 aps then you will end up with way over 3 sparks after just one eruption....around 375 chi. At just 4.16 they will barely have 3 sparks when the eruption runs out because at 4 aps you have exactly 300 chi after 15 seconds...with a bit extra cus of the .16 factor. Id heavily suggest you ask your friends to use this method to see if their chi gain matches their "supposed" char sheet attack rate.
Archers with fists (remember that crazy guy on gen forums who soloed 3-2?) Because of the rank gear have naturally 5 attacks per second if geared similarly to a -int bm (-.5). I heard remarks from him that he could out aggro a fist bm with the exact same gear (no chest of course). In reality with the strength mods (over 150 more strength) and the mastery if a bm, and if they also have 5 aps they should keep aggro easily. The fact that no bm in existence actually has 5 aps explains this phenomenon easily.0 -
First off im a L100 multi wpns BM.
U can all say what u want about which wpns sux and not mainly cuz ur all noobs who dont know how to play a multi wpn BM.
Each wpn and each skill has its benefits if u read the abilities hell u may learn something.
Fist for speed and with L59 skill Drake's Breath Bash (fire dmg) against MT mobs and bosses but then again it seems noone on here knows how to read.
Axes aoe and HF great when squaded with nukers.
Spear and GS awesome when u wanna drop a boss or mobs phy and mag def down. Oh wait sorry guess im going to fast for any of yas to learn anything.
Here i will slow down some for yas to catch up.
Swords and MSS great if ur tanking and want to lesson the dmg ur taking, even tho these skills have a short duration here is something to use to speed up chi. Use ur fist to build chi then use double stack skills like hrmm lets c.
Heaven's Flame with Drake's Breath Bash on MT bosses or mobs.
Or Glacial Spike then Heaven's Flame, Wizzies love that combo as do archers.
LEARN UR CLASS NOOBS!!!!!!0 -
KikouArashi - Heavens Tear wrote: »First off im a L100 multi wpns BM.
U can all say what u want about which wpns sux and not mainly cuz ur all noobs who dont know how to play a multi wpn BM.
Each wpn and each skill has its benefits if u read the abilities hell u may learn something.
Fist for speed and with L59 skill Drake's Breath Bash (fire dmg) against MT mobs and bosses but then again it seems noone on here knows how to read.
Axes aoe and HF great when squaded with nukers.
Spear and GS awesome when u wanna drop a boss or mobs phy and mag def down. Oh wait sorry guess im going to fast for any of yas to learn anything.
Here i will slow down some for yas to catch up.
Swords and MSS great if ur tanking and want to lesson the dmg ur taking, even tho these skills have a short duration here is something to use to speed up chi. Use ur fist to build chi then use double stack skills like hrmm lets c.
Heaven's Flame with Drake's Breath Bash on MT bosses or mobs.
Or Glacial Spike then Heaven's Flame, Wizzies love that combo as do archers.
LEARN UR CLASS NOOBS!!!!!!
Congratulations, you have managed to state the obvious.
I hail thee o, master BM. Who would have THOUGHT that axes can AoE! Who would have THOUGHT about using fists to build chi!
Your horizon of wisdom amazes me.
...Have I just been trolled?0 -
RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary wrote: »Yeah you have 4 attacks base with the legs then 25% added on gives the 5.
Also yeh zerk fists were simply for using cyclone and tyreseus. Considering you spark alot while using fists and tyreseus gets an out the ____ damage increase from spark erupts since of the 260% base in its damage. It is like the perfect attack for use with fists, and nukes very hard at the cost of just 1 spark. Add berserk and that would be amazing. Cyclone hits pretty hard as an aoe also, hitting like less than cleave and more than fissure.
Also relentless courage requires a decked out strength genie and only lasts 8 seconds, consuming almost all the genies energy...hardly worth using it if your sage when there are better skills that will probably give you more damage overall.
25% added onto 3.33 should only be like 4.16 attacks. Considering that its almost impossible to eyeball it the figure on the char sheet is very easy to believe. Id ask your friends to actually find how much chi they gain in a given amount of time and see if it makes sense with 5 attacks. 4.16 yields around 21 chi per second and 5 is 25 chi...so there will be a noticeable difference. Around a 16% slower gain of chi in comparison. Endless triple sparks are still possible with 4 attacks per second with the new 5 chi per hit. Before it was changed to 5 chi per hit the actual figure was only 13.36 chi off of being able to spark constantly, but with human error and at 4 aps yielding 16 chi in 1 second the difference was impossible to notice, considering continuous triple sparking were still possible (1 second between as i said isent noticed).
The only reliable way to test this is to start at 0 chi, then time the amount of time it takes to become full (exactly 3 sparks, do eruption, and go till you fill the bar.) If it is 5 aps then you will end up with way over 3 sparks after just one eruption....around 375 chi. At just 4.16 they will barely have 3 sparks when the eruption runs out because at 4 aps you have exactly 300 chi after 15 seconds...with a bit extra cus of the .16 factor. Id heavily suggest you ask your friends to use this method to see if their chi gain matches their "supposed" char sheet attack rate.
Archers with fists (remember that crazy guy on gen forums who soloed 3-2?) Because of the rank gear have naturally 5 attacks per second if geared similarly to a -int bm (-.5). I heard remarks from him that he could out aggro a fist bm with the exact same gear (no chest of course). In reality with the strength mods (over 150 more strength) and the mastery if a bm, and if they also have 5 aps they should keep aggro easily. The fact that no bm in existence actually has 5 aps explains this phenomenon easily.
-0.05 interval from cape
-0.05 interval scroll of tome
-0.1 wrists
-0.1 Lunar claw
-0.05 2 TT99 heavy
-0.05 2 TT99 Light
So your base interval is 0.3 which translates to 3.33 atk/s
75% of that (with demon spark) is .225, however interval rounds down to .2
That's 5 attacks per second.
Also I really don't see what the big deal is for the bolt of tyreseus combo. If you triple spark and bolt then it does 260% dmg which counts as 2.6 fist hits. If it crits+zerks then that's 1040% damage which counts as 10.4 fist hits. With 5 atk/s that's just barely over 2 seconds worth of normal attacks, assuming that out of your 10 normal attacks not one of them crits. Plus you just used up a spark, you're not building any chi, and if they moved out of your fist range both you and the opponent are stuck. The only advantage I could see to this is since bolt does have a range, if they are trying to run away and you used bolt it'd be a good finisher or to catch up to them with a tiger leap, otherwise damage really isn't that impressive.0 -
Filet - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also I really don't see what the big deal is for the bolt of tyreseus combo. If you triple spark and bolt then it does 260% dmg which counts as 2.6 fist hits. If it crits+zerks then that's 1040% damage which counts as 10.4 fist hits. With 5 atk/s that's just barely over 2 seconds worth of normal attacks, assuming that out of your 10 normal attacks not one of them crits. Plus you just used up a spark, you're not building any chi, and if they moved out of your fist range both you and the opponent are stuck. The only advantage I could see to this is since bolt does have a range, if they are trying to run away and you used bolt it'd be a good finisher or to catch up to them with a tiger leap, otherwise damage really isn't that impressive.
It's an AoE.0 -
-
Bolt works great against bosses, not so effective in PVP.
With zerker fist combined with triple spark and bolt iv hit for 70k crit and 62k non crit to bosses.
Dont use much in PVP unless im trying to hold a caster in place in TW for the rest of the squad to finish him off.0 -
couldn't you use will > bolt > then aoe with axes? That could be usefull in TW when roar is on cooldown. Though that spark my could be better used for somthing esle0
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