Pay to win game, the breakdown!

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

So i was simply reading the forums and while i noticed that alot of people were complaining about stupid things like pro tamers and packs, i also noticed that these people, try to find a way to live without using real money, but then, when they cant, complain about it and demand a sort of online representation....

Now i dont care if you charge gold or dont.. you can be a good player if your in a good helpfull faction that can get you all your HH 90 gears and weapon. But what i dont appreciate is how people who don't charge complain about people who do. I mean, why even try, you dont charge gold, your not a beneficiary to the game besides amount of players.

Now, GM's of course have to still serve these customers but that is simply because of policy and because they are "potential buyers", meaning that at some point in time they will get so frustrated with their lives that they charge gold!

So the point is that its Not a pay to play game (p2p), but it is in fact Play to Win (p2w). The game is a bussiness, and like a bussiness it needs money to be of any service. Using a spa as an example, you dont come into a spa and cry about why some other person who spent 5000 dollars is getting a professional tan and a whole room rented out or w/e do you? if you do then your just a sad person.... But if you dont then why complain about people using gold in game? The game almost DEMANDS it for great success, and so do the people. (by the people im referensing that nowadays it seems that a veno without a herc isnt a veno, just some other class).

People that oracle have the full right to oracle, that is an option given to them, to pay for their lvl... because its a bussiness, also with anni packs.. we buy them because we CAN and it puts us ahead of you, not to have you critisize that we're cash shop *****s... because your no shop *****s...

I'm not trying to offend anyone who goes by their days and plays pwi and doesnt charge, im not advertising for the company, if anything i'd be advertising for RedBull, but i wont, as i dont need to give you people a reason to flag the thread when you cant find anything else to flag.

So adding it all up, stop complaining, your playing a pay to WIN game, if you dont like it, go play pay to play as everyone is equal there, or just dont play at all, your benefits to pwi ended when you signed up and their numbers ticked.

- once again, only offened by people who complain, all others, i love you b:kiss ..

p.s. first like, 5 threads are gona say QQ more, but im not complaining, you are, when we jack your gold prices up to make money and you complain - Peace!

XXKimikoXx - Heavens Tear · January 2010

I find most F2P are pay to winb:surrender

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

unfortunately thats the only way it can be, servers cost money.
But there are multiple options...
pay to win (cash shop)
massive amounts of pop-ups during game and advertising in game
mandatory advertisement forms ( like the free gold stuff)
or if its sponsored by some millionare...

but usually its just p2w, easier plus gm's get some bonuses from gold prices..

maocchi · January 2010

Most people that complain are jealous. There I said it. b:surrender

You can't possibly believe that integrity is the driving factor behind not charging ZEN. If you can't beat them, join 'em. If you can't even join 'em, QQ.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · January 2010

This post fails to see the big picture on so many levels.

First of all, for all that buy zen gold & sell it for game coin, who the hell do you think buys it? Those that dont pay any real money create the demand that allows those that do to use zen charging to get coin. They serve a vital purpose in allowing this game to continue and without them, the people who do charge zen would fail. Many charge zen because they dont have alot of time to farm, this gives them a way to keep up with those that may not have real money to spend but do on the other hand have extra time. Its a symbiotic relationship, not parasitic, both parts are needed. The people who do charge need to realize they need those that dont.

In addition, those that charge zen actually make up a rather small percent of the population. If you exclude those that have charged very little (such as $20 once or some similar amount), the large amount of the money PWE makes from zen charges comes from a very small segment of the player base. Now if you suddenly excise them from the game, saying they have no purpose, the game suddenly becomes very vacant. Who do the zen chargers plan to play with? Those that dont charge are creating a population, which then makes the game much more attractive to those that will charge money.

It disgusts me to read things from zen chargers who think they're entitled to having every thing their way. Both sides are needed, and both should be listened to. Without either side, this game dies. Free to Play works on this principle.

Ashendal - Dreamweaver · January 2010

*shrugs* I see it as my maybe $10 every few months to get a perfect hammer or maybe a random pack just to try my luck is a bonus that helps. Yes it would be nice to have a totally free game but as the saying goes, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." Someone is paying for your meal somewhere, somehow.

Getting upset because of Anni packs ruining the gold-coin ratio is on the players heads themselves. The real reason that price goes up is because players get greedy and charge more. There, I said it. It's not PW's fault that people don't want to be fair in their dealings, it's human nature to be greedy and make things go in our favor.

That's not to say their doing that with the Cash Shop. Every other FTP game has something like that, and every other FTP game that has one has to keep pushing items in there and advertising them otherwise they'd make no money at all as people would just play for free and ignore the shop. What would happen to PW then? No money at all means no game.

If everyone just once in a while decided to pay 10 bucks here or there we might actually see a less of a push of cash shop items and a greater push of content since the staff wouldn't be worried about running out of money to pay the insane server bills that I know they have. (MMO server costs are the largest online costs per bit of data hands down.) We might actually see the bugs everyone complains about fixed because the staff wouldn't be trying to get cashflow to make sure the game is around for those people to complain about.

Yes they do sometimes go overboard...70 bucks for a mount is a lot, but most times they atleast try to give a decent amount of items as cheaply as possible. Case and point the mat sale right now, I bought some glues to make mats with...did it cost me a whole lot? Nope. But did I do it since it was easier then farming and didn't cost an arm and a leg to get? Yes.

To sum it up, if you don't want to support the game, all you want to do is complain, and you want everything handed to you for free....seriously rethink how your viewing the game and life.

I'll make the point here that I'm not bashing FTP people. I've met some very nice ones that don't complain because they know their playing for free. I get upset with the ones that do nothing but complain and they never paid a cent. Entitlement is not something I approve of.

maocchi · January 2010

Nobody said non-buyers aren't needed. That's just an extremist view.

It's the fact that many non-buyers choose to complain about the buyers for reason "unknown" (pfft).

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Ashendal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Getting upset because of Anni packs ruining the gold-coin ratio is on the players heads themselves. The real reason that price goes up is because players get greedy and charge more. There, I said it. It's not PW's fault that people don't want to be fair in their dealings, it's human nature to be greedy and make things go in our favor.

I dont care about the gear Anni Packs introduced. Seriously, the reason they ruined the economy was the 10 mil bank notes. Look at the larger scope for a second. The economy is spiralling out of control due to inflation. Packs constantly injecting more & more coin only accelerates the inflation, and as we saw just before the great depression, and even more recently with the housing market crash, hyper-inflation destroys an economy.

Ashendal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To sum it up, if you don't want to support the game, all you want to do is complain, and you want everything handed to you for free....seriously rethink how your viewing the game and life.

Please read my post right above you. I'm sorry you're rather mis-informed if you believe this game only lives due to those that charge zen. Without those that dont charge zen, this game dies.

Ashendal - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont care about the gear Anni Packs introduced. Seriously, the reason they ruined the economy was the 10 mil bank notes. Look at the larger scope for a second. The economy is spiralling out of control due to inflation. Packs constantly injecting more & more coin only accelerates the inflation, and as we saw just before the great depression, and even more recently with the housing market crash, hyper-inflation destroys an economy.

I'm well aware of how the economy works, thanks. What I've seen is people charging one price one moment, I leave the area for a minute or two, the price goes up a 100k, I leave again, price goes up again and they haven't sold a single item. Same number of items and the shop hasn't moved. That just shows me that they closed the shop, upped the price because they saw something and are gouging other players because they know some poor sap is going to pay it. You can't honestly tell me that some of the items people are selling are worth the amount of coin their selling them for. If players stopped trying to gain play money in a play economy in outrageous amounts just to have a surplus to blow off there wouldn't be an issue.

Same goes for the real world. If people didn't try to be greedy idiots and do what actually *works* then there wouldn't be a problem. Price gouging is on the players heads, not the company's. If you want to charge increasing amounts for an item that is worth exactly the same amount as it was the 30 seconds before a pack was released go ahead, but your a part of the problem.

Yes it doesn't help their greedy natures to put out something that they know people will gouge on, but it should be on the players heads to simply save that extra coin their getting...and I don't know...make an alt and use the coins there? Same amount of coins in the economy and yet their being used productively. Or they could dump them on stones or maybe new equips, or one of a hundred other things.

Saying that because packs were released that gives players extra money and that's ruining an economy isn't right. A player can make *number^X* per day, per account, per quest/mob. That is a limitless equation. I could farm several hours a day on multiple accounts and make at least 500k per account as all my accounts are now. (500k^4 accounts) That is just from farming mats/drops. I just artificially added 500k per account to the economy. I've now created a fake inflation in the total amount of coins in circulation which I'm going to add to other players piles. I'm then going to do so over and over and over each day until the economy is now completely filled with my useless currency.

It's a game with the ability to have unlimited amounts of currency on multiple fronts all affecting the economy at the exact same time...it'll cause inflation regardless of what PW does.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Please read my post right above you. I'm sorry you're rather mis-informed if you believe this game only lives due to those that charge zen. Without those that dont charge zen, this game dies.

Please check my edit. I don't have a problem with FTP people that don't complain. I have a problem with people that only complain to complain and have never once done anything to help the situation. If you don't want to pay, that's perfectly fine, but just realize it's like not voting in an election. If you don't put your bid in you can't say anything because you didn't take the initiative in order to give yourself the opinion.

EIlvira - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This post fails to see the big picture on so many levels.

First of all, for all that buy zen gold & sell it for game coin, who the hell do you think buys it? Those that dont pay any real money create the demand that allows those that do to use zen charging to get coin. They serve a vital purpose in allowing this game to continue and without them, the people who do charge zen would fail. Many charge zen because they dont have alot of time to farm, this gives them a way to keep up with those that may not have real money to spend but do on the other hand have extra time. Its a symbiotic relationship, not parasitic, both parts are needed. The people who do charge need to realize they need those that dont.

In addition, those that charge zen actually make up a rather small percent of the population. If you exclude those that have charged very little (such as $20 once or some similar amount), the large amount of the money PWE makes from zen charges comes from a very small segment of the player base. Now if you suddenly excise them from the game, saying they have no purpose, the game suddenly becomes very vacant. Who do the zen chargers plan to play with? Those that dont charge are creating a population, which then makes the game much more attractive to those that will charge money.

It disgusts me to read things from zen chargers who think they're entitled to having every thing their way. Both sides are needed, and both should be listened to. Without either side, this game dies. Free to Play works on this principle.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

I feel both sides are needed. How else would I make some coin sometimes when I want to sell 10 gold in AH if there were no one to buy it? XD And vice versa of course. I've gone both ways from charging gold to sell and buying gold so I could buy from the cash shop. It's impossible to place the blame on either party for complaining as I think a lot of people have complained from both about various things. Hey, I wasted away $75 on anni packs the first time they came out, getting pretty much nothing but the regular perfect tokens. Realized it was a crock, got smart and stopped wasting money on it lol. It's easy as that. I think tokens are useful, so I bought them from other players when I needed them.

I think in the end no matter how you look at it a person who doesn't buy gold can get anything they want in the game with enough dedication. There are other ways to make coins in the game without charging gold and there are ways to buy things from the cash shop without spending RL money. :S I dunno what the big deal is.

Ashendal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Please check my edit. I don't have a problem with FTP people that don't complain. I have a problem with people that only complain to complain and have never once done anything to help the situation. If you don't want to pay, that's perfectly fine, but just realize it's like not voting in an election. If you don't put your bid in you can't say anything because you didn't take the initiative in order to give yourself the opinion.

And I just noticed this after I posted lol. I guess in this case we agree. Though I still think everyone has an opinion if they've ever bought gold through AH with coins, or through RL money. Maybe if someone complains who's never bought anything either way, it would be a little pointless, yeah.

Saitada_ - Sanctuary · January 2010

Thats the way it is. Lick it up cupcake

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Saitada_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thats the way it is. Lick it up cupcake

Shut up fake Saitada. Everyone knows you're not the real one. At least he trolls with some finesse.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · January 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This post fails to see the big picture on so many levels.

First of all, for all that buy zen gold & sell it for game coin, who the hell do you think buys it? Those that dont pay any real money create the demand that allows those that do to use zen charging to get coin. They serve a vital purpose in allowing this game to continue and without them, the people who do charge zen would fail. Many charge zen because they dont have alot of time to farm, this gives them a way to keep up with those that may not have real money to spend but do on the other hand have extra time. Its a symbiotic relationship, not parasitic, both parts are needed. The people who do charge need to realize they need those that dont.

In addition, those that charge zen actually make up a rather small percent of the population. If you exclude those that have charged very little (such as $20 once or some similar amount), the large amount of the money PWE makes from zen charges comes from a very small segment of the player base. Now if you suddenly excise them from the game, saying they have no purpose, the game suddenly becomes very vacant. Who do the zen chargers plan to play with? Those that dont charge are creating a population, which then makes the game much more attractive to those that will charge money.

It disgusts me to read things from zen chargers who think they're entitled to having every thing their way. Both sides are needed, and both should be listened to. Without either side, this game dies. Free to Play works on this principle.

+1 and QFDT

Seriously, how much zen do you think PWI would sell if F2P players didn't exist and gold sold for 0 coin in the AH? They'd lose out horribly. The AH gold trade exists for a reason.

Also there's nothing wrong with those who charge zen. And nothing wrong with them buying what pwi offers on sale. The issue is the products pwi offers. Complete end-game gear? Levels? It kinda ruins the entire point of an mmo. It's like "pay us enough and we'll let you use the cheat button

". In short, the real culprit here is PWI.

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

errr i never said get rid of non charging players, im just wondering why those that dont charge complain.. your making it way bigger and extremist, no sht we wouldnt have anyone to play with if its just cash shoppers, we depend on you to buy our gold that we put at extremely high prices (1 mil is unfortunately the max, pwi wont allow us to exploit any more then that)...

I dont think i ever said get rid of non chargers lol, just annoyed at how they complain...

and its a p2w, there should be a pay us enough and you win type of thing, thats the point!
Some people only have a couple of hours a day to play so make up for it by charging thousands... seriously.. just cuz you cant get end game gear doesnt mean that you put all those that do in a bad spot..

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont care about the gear Anni Packs introduced. Seriously, the reason they ruined the economy was the 10 mil bank notes. Look at the larger scope for a second. The economy is spiralling out of control due to inflation. Packs constantly injecting more & more coin only accelerates the inflation, and as we saw just before the great depression, and even more recently with the housing market crash, hyper-inflation destroys an economy.

Please read my post right above you. I'm sorry you're rather mis-informed if you believe this game only lives due to those that charge zen. Without those that dont charge zen, this game dies.

err... who gives a hoot about your economy? we can always charge more gold to match teh coin inflation... lolz

plus, really? the great depression? its a game, get over yourself.... lol.. there can never be a great depression in PWI, you can always charge more gold and if prices are riduculously high that nobody wants to buy anything, then prices drop because someone somewhere wants to sell his stuf quick, and then the competition begins...

Ashendal - Dreamweaver · January 2010

It's not quite that easy to fix, but it would be simpler if PW gave us more gold sinks like Jolly Jones. Those actually help to rid excess coins made from Anni packs and other areas and keep things at a normal price. Even if Anni packs were left in the game the economy would adjust to take that into account, things would flutter a bit, and it would settle back to a comfortable place that everyone can afford. It's always happened and always will happen in every economy, it's called a self correction for a reason. =P

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · January 2010

RedBuIl - Lost City wrote: »

err... who gives a hoot about your economy? we can always charge more gold to match teh coin inflation... lolz

plus, really? the great depression? its a game, get over yourself.... lol.. there can never be a great depression in PWI, you can always charge more gold and if prices are riduculously high that nobody wants to buy anything, then prices drop because someone somewhere wants to sell his stuf quick, and then the competition begins...

You do, because if you chase out all the non-paying players, you lose the game. You already read my prior post. You apparantly fail to grasp the concept of the symbiotic relationship and continue to think the devs should only listen to you. You win the battle & lose the war.

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

i dont lose the game... i simply revolutionize it.
people will stay because, as i said in my original post, you can still be a good player without charging gold... and as i look at prices, only things that come from the auction house go up in price, pots are always the same price, and if your charging, a gold charm is always a gold charm, nothing more nothing less, unless there is a sale. ^,..,^

once again im not hating on the people that dont charge and dont complain, i just hate it when people call others oracle *****s and cash shop *****s.. as its the main point if the game, to win.

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

Ashendal - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's not quite that easy to fix, but it would be simpler if PW gave us more gold sinks like Jolly Jones. Those actually help to rid excess coins made from Anni packs and other areas and keep things at a normal price. Even if Anni packs were left in the game the economy would adjust to take that into account, things would flutter a bit, and it would settle back to a comfortable place that everyone can afford. It's always happened and always will happen in every economy, it's called a self correction for a reason. =P

yes, i agree.. another jolly event would clear out some coin, and it does help keep a balance, but pwi has been getting snippy with its events, i charge but i still want snowmen and cards and the christmass tree, i'd trade anni packs for last years christmas event or last years halloween event any day... anni packs should just become a perm.. not an event.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · January 2010

Why do so many people consistently feel the need to hyper-moralize every little detail about how other people play a video game?

RedBuIl - Lost City · January 2010

general boredom or anger i presume.. b:laugh

Ashendal - Dreamweaver · January 2010

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why do so many people consistently feel the need to hyper-moralize every little detail about how other people play a video game?

Because we care. b:cute

RaDeSK - Sanctuary · January 2010

'-'... you seem to be gald for p2win, I've bought some gold with money, but I really don't think that's fair to have a item that in any pw server the chance to win it's once per year (a cloak that gives 500 def, phys red -3% bla bla bla) and for that you need to beat everyone in anual race.

vbarbie · January 2010

Well .. you all got it wrong.. All of u wanna make it look like if the Zhen buyers are the 'winers' the allmighty and the non Zhen buyers are the loosers who dont own anything.. OH i got news for you!!!! Not one single one of the pixels or Server space that you think belongs to you, Is or will be ever yours..Even if you spent 10,000 Dollars baby .......... So don't feel so proud and don't feel like your the sh*t Because at the end.. Who are the real loosers?

Varscona - Sanctuary · January 2010

uh...people hate on oracle noobs because they do it wrong and turn out to be arrogant morons. ijs

not all but a lot

maocchi · January 2010

vbarbie wrote: »

Well .. you all got it wrong.. All of u wanna make it look like if the Zhen buyers are the 'winers' the allmighty and the non Zhen buyers are the loosers who dont own anything.. OH i got news for you!!!! Not one single one of the pixels or Server space that you think belongs to you, Is or will be ever yours..Even if you spent 10,000 Dollars baby .......... So don't feel so proud and don't feel like your the sh*t Because at the end.. Who are the real loosers?

Movies don't belong to you. Music don't belong to you. TV shows don't belong to you. In some cases you get a piece of disk that you can keep but can't reproduce.

Entertainment is privilege, not a right. You don't buy the rights to entertainment. You buy the privilege to enjoy them.

How is this any different according to your ingenious theory? Are you saying anyone who enjoys entertainment is a loser because they don't really own anything?

MagicHamsta - Lost City · January 2010

maocchi wrote: »

Entertainment is privilege, not a right. You don't buy the rights to entertainment. You buy the privilege to enjoy them.

well what if me decide to buy teh rights to a movie?
=O
b:chuckle
loooooool

Vintersun - Sanctuary · January 2010

Actually isn't this just another complaining thread, I don't see why some players think they have more rights than others to voice their opinions. PW wasn't a free to play game to start with, so there must be some good reason for them to actually make it a f2p game. Maybe they didn't have enough players when all was paying members.

And why not play for fun, you can't win this game. I would rather be a person which have pride in saying "I worked hard on this character and I had so much fun" than saying "I bought tons of oracles and other good stuff in cash shop and became the best player right away" I think PWI is a great game but nothing can be 100% good so there will always be bad things about it. Also what fun is it with a game where only payers are allowed to visit the forum and voice their opinion. What do you think would happen...they would complain and complain and complain as thats the nature of human.

And as I always try to say this is a game where players can make difference paying players are needed and non paying players are needed. And the economy in the game is mostly as said earlier in this thread because of the fact that instead of taking a good price for a item some players just has to have a mil even though they don't actually have anything which is worth that sum of money.

Formykka - Heavens Tear · January 2010

RedBuIl - Lost City wrote: »

... as its the main point if the game, to win.

So, what exactly do we get when we win the game? A trophy? Cash monies? The admiration and respect of all our peers?

I can't believe that d&d has been out for over 35 years and people still think you can "win" a RPG.

Anyway....I hope its a trophy.

Alvena - Sanctuary · January 2010

They can spend all the money they like on the damn game - But if they Oracle up and want to come on Delta's/BH's..etc - they'd better know what the heck they're doin'. b:chuckle Just 'cause they buy all the good armour to "win" - Doesn't mean they're great at playing their class.

KnaveslLobo - Heavens Tear · January 2010

so id really like to know how you plan on "winning" this game
since it never ends. just like life no one truely "wins"

Pay to win game, the breakdown!

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