Flesh ream/aggro loss??

Tacomo - Sanctuary · January 2010

Ok I'm a lvl 83 barb and recently since the expansion and alittle bit before it was released I seemed to lose aggro abit easier... not just on regular mobs ethier also on bosses and this is with me spaming my ream button. Was wondering if any other barbs out there have been haven the same problem cause I never used ta lose aggro so quickly or easyly before. Also I've noticed one thing with this if I happen to have my pet out (A tabby plumbdrop if it makes a difference) I seem to REALLY lose aggro I've even tested this ... very brave friends I have ta help me test it lol and when I don't have the pet out I don't lose aggro as much BUT I'm still losing it and I lose it directly after I do ream and yes its maxed. If anyone has any insight or has had this happen please lemme know... wonder if its a glitch or something.

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

most likely a glitch, have you tried the other fr attack? (that you get much later, and has a longer cooldown)

Tacomo - Sanctuary · January 2010

Not sure what other skill your talking about I've got both my 79 skills and only one is for aggro and I still lose aggro with it as well.

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver · January 2010

i've noticed this as well, actually...

usually i have no problems holding aggro with my barb, even if the dds are 20 lvls above me. the other day, however, lost aggro in a bh51 on wyvern with people around my lvl. WTF?? that never happens...and yet it did. i assume it's some sort of glitch and (hopefully) not just a brain **** on my part.

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Tacomo - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not sure what other skill your talking about I've got both my 79 skills and only one is for aggro and I still lose aggro with it as well.

I was thinking of devour. but I reread it. probably the reduce to phys def that causes fr to work better after using it *shrugs*

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · January 2010

Noticed it too. Barbs keep randomly losing agro in bh's, even to BM's. And these aren't fail barbs, these guys are competent players who obviously know their class and are using their skills just fine. I know in the patch notes they mentioned sin and psy skills have been modified to generate lower agro, maybe this has glitched and affected barb skills too?

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver · January 2010

I suppose that's possible. Hope they fix it soon. Party wipes are embarrassing when ur the tank. b:surrender

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I suppose that's possible. Hope they fix it soon. Party wipes are embarrassing when ur the tank. b:surrender

have an amp damage veno handy all the time? lol

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Psytrac - Dreamweaver wrote: »

have an amp damage veno handy all the time? lol

I think maybe I missed something here?? Whether or not there is a veno in the squad is irrelevant as I see it. If there is one, I certainly hope they are keeping amp dmg up as much as possible. I know i do when doing bosses with my veno.

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think maybe I missed something here?? Whether or not there is a veno in the squad is irrelevant as I see it. If there is one, I certainly hope they are keeping amp dmg up as much as possible. I know i do when doing bosses with my veno.

nah, just me being stupid since I can't think so well as sick as I am..

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Oh. Hope u feel better.

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Oh. Hope u feel better.

working on that.. thanks

Solandri - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Tacomo - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also I've noticed one thing with this if I happen to have my pet out (A tabby plumbdrop if it makes a difference) I seem to REALLY lose aggro

Get a cleric and another player to help you. Approach a fresh mob and FR it, then immediately stop attacking. While the cleric heals you, the other player should attack it (preferably punch it, but could use weapons depending on how much melee damage they do). The moment the mob switches aggro from you to that player, they stop attacking. They should scroll back and add up their melee damage (you and the cleric can kill the mob meanwhile).

Do this a few times to avoid error. The amount of damage the other player does minus the damage of your FR is how much damage-equivalent of aggro your FR generates.

Now test it with your pet out.

Just having both you and your friend attacking and seeing who gets aggro is unreliable because of the variability in the damage you do. Having just one person attacking and adding up the damage eliminates that variability (mostly - you still have an error range equal to the damage of the last hit before aggro switches, which is why you want to use small-damage hits like punches).

I did a similar series of tests for veno pet skills to figure out how much aggro they generated. I'm curious how much aggro barb FR generates in comparison.

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

in comparison to what?

Solandri - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Psytrac - Dreamweaver wrote: »

in comparison to what?

In comparison to veno pet FR or Bash.

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Get a cleric and another player to help you. Approach a fresh mob and FR it, then immediately stop attacking. While the cleric heals you, the other player should attack it (preferably punch it, but could use weapons depending on how much melee damage they do). The moment the mob switches aggro from you to that player, they stop attacking. They should scroll back and add up their melee damage (you and the cleric can kill the mob meanwhile).

Do this a few times to avoid error. The amount of damage the other player does minus the damage of your FR is how much damage-equivalent of aggro your FR generates.

Now test it with your pet out.

Just having both you and your friend attacking and seeing who gets aggro is unreliable because of the variability in the damage you do. Having just one person attacking and adding up the damage eliminates that variability (mostly - you still have an error range equal to the damage of the last hit before aggro switches, which is why you want to use small-damage hits like punches).

I did a similar series of tests for veno pet skills to figure out how much aggro they generated. I'm curious how much aggro barb FR generates in comparison.

this sounds much too complicated to me lol b:surrender

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In comparison to veno pet FR or Bash.

pet lvl 60-79 can only have lvl 4 fr and bash.

let's take my shaodu (63) as an example:
base attack: 1018
fr lvl 4 (max at this level): base damage + 180% over 9 seconds; cooldown 15 seconds
1832 damage over 9 seconds (203.5 per second)
1018 base

2850 every 15 seconds. (not including resistances and deductions)
over 18 seconds (roughly) = 4478.5

barb equivalent:

Cast 1.0 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds

Rip the enemy's flesh drawing their aggression onto you,
inflicting base physical damage and causing bleeding,
inflicting 651.5 damage over 15 seconds. (43.4 per second)

now let's assume the same conditions apply, (1018 BASE damage)

base damage for 18 seconds: 6108
after 15 seconds (veno cooldown) fr will have stacked 5 times. 1965 fr damage (roughly)
after 15 seconds a barb will have gathered 8073 damage for agro.

BARB = 8073
VENO = 2850 (shaodu)

Solandri - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Psytrac - Dreamweaver wrote: »

BARB = 8073
VENO = 2850 (shaodu)

The skills add aggro in addition to the damage they do. Level 4 pet Bash for instance generates aggro as if it did about 4800 damage more than the actual damage it does. e.g. when my cub hit with bash for 1200 damage, I had to do about 6000 damage before I took aggro back from the cub.

I have a pretty good idea how much extra aggro the pet skills add. I'm curious how much extra aggro barb FR adds.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=259391

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear · January 2010

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Noticed it too. Barbs keep randomly losing agro in bh's, even to BM's. And these aren't fail barbs, these guys are competent players who obviously know their class and are using their skills just fine. I know in the patch notes they mentioned sin and psy skills have been modified to generate lower agro, maybe this has glitched and affected barb skills too?

Can you please link us to these patch notes? I'd like to read up on that. My husband is a lvl 89 Barb. He's been told by many people he is one of the best on the HT server. He has mentioned in the past few days he's having this same problem. As you can see I'm a lvl 91 archer, even when we squaded together before he did very well at keeping aggro off of me. Now suddenly he can't even keep it from people who are lower lvl than he is. Its not making sense and something isn't right.

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think maybe I missed something here?? Whether or not there is a veno in the squad is irrelevant as I see it. If there is one, I certainly hope they are keeping amp dmg up as much as possible. I know i do when doing bosses with my veno.

Well I aggree with you. This made no sense. As when a veno amps damage that counts for everyone. The only way it would matter here is if the damage amp only worked for untamed. But it doesnt....??? Idk.

Airyll - Dreamweaver · January 2010

I've been seeing the same thing lately.

Now I'm not married to the most competent barb on the server by any means, but my husband knows how to play his class extremely well and precisely how to take aggro back as fast as possible should he ever lose it. Now before we were married (heck, before we even talked very much) I squadded with him a few times and never stole. Not once.

Lately we were talking more and more and squadded together multiple times. Still, I very rarely ever stole from him - the only times I did he was lagging slightly, and the steal was only for a few seconds before he nabbed aggro back. He was a good enough barb I could play the "Keep aggro from me" game and he'd normally win, it was hard to steal from him.

Lately... I've been stealing a lot. Now recently I upgraded to from a Unicorn +3 with two immaculates to an Broadland +5 with a garnet gem - I expected one or two steals while I got used to the new damage the bow did. But this many? Nu-uh, something isn't right.

Also on another note curious note, along with barbs losing aggro have any venos found pulling with pets fails more than usual lately? I know every now and then I would send my pet out, let it bash a mob a few times and recall it back, and the mob wouldn't follow, but lately this too has been happening a lot more than it used to.

-edit-
In reference to amp damage.

If barbs are glitching and losing aggro more than they should, amp damage helps them to lose aggro. As far as I'm aware, all amp damage does is increase the damage a monster takes from everybody, but doesn't increase the hate and aggro generated by a barb's FR. If I'm rate and this is true, then amp makes it easier for a barb to lose aggro, because all the DDs start doing more damage than normal. So, if barbs are glitching and losing aggro when amp isn't around I don't think amplify damage is gonna help their cause.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If barbs are glitching and losing aggro more than they should, amp damage helps them to lose aggro. As far as I'm aware, all amp damage does is increase the damage a monster takes from everybody, but doesn't increase the hate and aggro generated by a barb's FR. If I'm rate and this is true, then amp makes it easier for a barb to lose aggro, because all the DDs start doing more damage than normal. So, if barbs are glitching and losing aggro when amp isn't around I don't think amplify damage is gonna help their cause.

When I tested Pierce (a pdef debuff pet skill) in the tests I linked to above, the amount of damage I needed to pull aggro increased by approximately the same amount as the pdef debuff. It's as if aggro when a debuff is applied is calculated based on pre-debuff damage. So the debuff doesn't change how easy/hard it is to pull aggro.

I've been meaning to test this with Amp (and Extreme Poison). Special mob attributes like Increased Defense don't seem to work this way. It's easier for my veno (using spells) to pull aggro off her pet (using melee) against Increased Defense mobs. So clearly it's not as simple as aggro simply being calculated based on raw damage. But neither would I assume that Amp makes it easier to pull aggro off the tank.

Airyll - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

When I tested Pierce (a pdef debuff pet skill) in the tests I linked to above, the amount of damage I needed to pull aggro increased by approximately the same amount as the pdef debuff. It's as if aggro when a debuff is applied is calculated based on pre-debuff damage. So the debuff doesn't change how easy/hard it is to pull aggro.

I've been meaning to test this with Amp (and Extreme Poison). Special mob attributes like Increased Defense don't seem to work this way. It's easier for my veno (using spells) to pull aggro off her pet (using melee) against Increased Defense mobs. So clearly it's not as simple as aggro simply being calculated based on raw damage. But neither would I assume that Amp makes it easier to pull aggro off the tank.

Hmm... curious.

I've found the same with my veno that you found with yours - I would steal from my pet easier (and therefore faster) from an Increased Def. mob. But since bosses don't tend to have such an attribute I can't really say how that would work if a barb was tanking, etc. etc.

In my own experience, I've normally been with tanks competent enough to keep aggro 24/7 - maybe the odd occasional steal if I'm not nerfing my damage and the tank's a lower level or if he/she lags, etc. So in all honesty I can't truly confirm if it's easier or harder to pull aggro or if there simply isn't a change at all. The one thing I have noticed, though, is that with barbs not so skilled at keeping aggro in the first place, I steal faster and more regularly when an amp comes around.
This isn't a tested thing by any means though, just personal experience. =P I could very well be wrong.

Ceshiari - Sanctuary · January 2010

Ive been noticing this myself more and more. Im spamming aggro skills like crazy and still having a hard time holding aggro, which is almost never the case with me. Lately, it seems like the boss goes anywhere he/she wants. Its rather annoying.

I would like this to be looked into further as well.

Psytrac - Dreamweaver · January 2010

Ceshiari - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ive been noticing this myself more and more. Im spamming aggro skills like crazy and still having a hard time holding aggro, which is almost never the case with me. Lately, it seems like the boss goes anywhere he/she wants. Its rather annoying.

I would like this to be looked into further as well.

what was your squad? (dds only is fine, cleric is assumed)

Alyyy - Sanctuary · January 2010

well i did the fb59 yesterday... and by the drake boss they were playing voleyball with the agro -_-...

barb was tanking...then bm got agro...then wiz...then archer(which was using fists)....then the bm again...

so i gave up an djust used chromatic healing beam lolb:shocked

b:embarrassit was...horible

Must - Lost City · January 2010

Flesh realm is a skill u get at lvl 9 and finish by lvl 64 or something, while mages bms others calss raise and use theyr strnger skils on mobs boss i have gotten flesgh real at 64 and till 89 thats it no more raises, and has a tanker barb u put more into vit while bms mages keep raising theyr attack power, so i guesss the anwer is that ist not cause of expansion its cause ur flesh real dont get higher since ur 64 and all others classes skill keep on raising.. so get 89 and get that sage/demon book to have less agro problemsb:victory

OneHottShot - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In reference to amp damage.

If barbs are glitching and losing aggro more than they should, amp damage helps them to lose aggro. As far as I'm aware, all amp damage does is increase the damage a monster takes from everybody, but doesn't increase the hate and aggro generated by a barb's FR. If I'm rate and this is true, then amp makes it easier for a barb to lose aggro, because all the DDs start doing more damage than normal. So, if barbs are glitching and losing aggro when amp isn't around I don't think amplify damage is gonna help their cause.

Amp damage intensifies (aplifies) the damage that the mob/boss takes by anyone who does damage to it. My 30 and 40k crits become 60-80k crits when amp damage is used. I'm too lazy at the moment to go look but I posted something about this and the barb losing aggro to me a week or so ago. With crits like 70 or 80k back to back any barb would lose aggro, but flesh ream and alpha male should be able to bring it back regardless. I even quit hitting a boss after the barb and other DD's continued they still could not get aggro off of me. (stygean was the boss) For an entire 10 seconds I didn't even hit and they couldn't get it back, finally they did. But the barb even did fleshream and couldn't get the boss to aggro back on him.

Something isn't right, I thought maybe we were just lagging a lot. (barb-hubby and I are in the same house) but if others are having this issue perhaps its much deeper than lag.

Must - Lost City wrote: »

Flesh realm is a skill u get at lvl 9 and finish by lvl 64 or something, while mages bms others calss raise and use theyr strnger skils on mobs boss i have gotten flesgh real at 64 and till 89 thats it no more raises, and has a tanker barb u put more into vit while bms mages keep raising theyr attack power, so i guesss the anwer is that ist not cause of expansion its cause ur flesh real dont get higher since ur 64 and all others classes skill keep on raising.. so get 89 and get that sage/demon book to have less agro problemsb:victory

Ok let me clarify this for you. The same barb/cleric/veno/archer/bm/cleric all go into tt 2-3 for a week. We all do the same run, no1 lvls. A few days later the same exact squad goes into tt 2-3 no 1 has leveled, no one has changed gears. (we're farming for gears)And suddenly the barb isn't holding aggro like he did even 2 days prior. Now tell me it has to do with raising any skill or getting higher?

Khalfani - Harshlands · January 2010

I'm a barb. And here are some tips which I have learned through experience in my class.

To avoid losing aggro, in a bh party, avoid using devour. If there's a major DD phys class like an archer, the last thing you want to do is grant them an extra boost in damage by reducing the boss's defense by 50%, therefore making them take aggro easily. When tangling mire or amplify damage or dragons is cast, use roar to lock aggro onto yourself. Also, have Alpha Male as your genie skill. In times of aggro grabs from other players, use this skill and it goes back to you immediately.
Higher level DD's tend to grab aggro more because of a bigger increase in damage as opposed to barbs.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · January 2010

Tacomo - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok I'm a lvl 83 barb and recently since the expansion and alittle bit before it was released I seemed to lose aggro abit easier... not just on regular mobs ethier also on bosses and this is with me spaming my ream button. Was wondering if any other barbs out there have been haven the same problem cause I never used ta lose aggro so quickly or easyly before. Also I've noticed one thing with this if I happen to have my pet out (A tabby plumbdrop if it makes a difference) I seem to REALLY lose aggro I've even tested this ... very brave friends I have ta help me test it lol and when I don't have the pet out I don't lose aggro as much BUT I'm still losing it and I lose it directly after I do ream and yes its maxed. If anyone has any insight or has had this happen please lemme know... wonder if its a glitch or something.

What has been tested is there are aggro resetting skills that barbs and even pets have. This can be the likely culprit too that is more often overlook than I imagined.

Khalfani - Harshlands wrote: »

I'm a barb. And here are some tips which I have learned through experience in my class.

To avoid losing aggro, in a bh party, avoid using devour. If there's a major DD phys class like an archer, the last thing you want to do is grant them an extra boost in damage by reducing the boss's defense by 50%, therefore making them take aggro easily. When tangling mire or amplify damage or dragons is cast, use roar to lock aggro onto yourself. Also, have Alpha Male as your genie skill. In times of aggro grabs from other players, use this skill and it goes back to you immediately.
Higher level DD's tend to grab aggro more because of a bigger increase in damage as opposed to barbs.

Honestly those curses are unavoidable. Soon as a veno does ironwood or a cleric uses seals, for instance, you have yourself more dmg being done -- and it's pointless to ask them not to. I wouldn't avoid using devour just because of that. I also am reluctant to use Alpha Male on my barb because he loses his bramble when he does. Flesh ream does a good enough job.

Maragon - Dreamweaver · January 2010

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What has been tested is there are aggro resetting skills that barbs and even pets have. This can be the likely culprit too that is more often overlook than I imagined.

I do not know how it works myself, but i was in a bh 69 squad (cant remember which boss but one of the second 2). The lvl 89 barb spamming ream like he should hit alpha male about 20% into the boss to up his aggro from the DDs and I died only healing and it was not his aoe cuz I was the only one that was attacked and he hit me for like 4500b:surrender

Confused we both appologized and the BM with us said that what alpha does is reset the aggro tables while giving the barb some aggro. I guess it only gave him the amount of aggro as if you were just near a mob because my ironheart apparently finished channeling just as he hit alpha male and I got heal aggro.

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear · January 2010

that could explain why i lost agro on bosses like pole while i was spamming ream and i knew the DDs were somewhat competent to hmmm
not trying to be hypocrite but kinda strange this happened maybe its so we actually gotta spend more cash to improve our damage

Flesh ream/aggro loss??

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