Is attack rate irrelevant?
Comments
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ArkToNE - Harshlands wrote: »The only issue there is that the player will need to be level 99 with interval gear then in order to reach two and a half attacks a second. And with the addition of Demon or Sage, it can also easily be assumed that the skills also reached Demon/Sage quality. Thus, until the damage for the demon/sage skills are figured out, we cannot presume normal attacks being more efficient.
We are also very certain that Demon/Sage has some wild effects on skills, for all we know they can shoot Chill of the Deep's Attack levels to 50, negate the attack rate debuff, or many other possibilities. So, until Sage and Demon skills have been realized, we cannot presume that normal attacks with interval gear will yield better results.0 -
Then again, Archer's skills are naturally slow to begin with and Fist BM's skills have a much lower damage output than Assassin; even slipstream strike at level 51 does more damage than a large majority of Fist BM's skills. Indeed, slipstream is strong, but Throatcut, Rib Strike, Rising Dragon Strike, and many other moves seriously outdamages it. Not only that, but the Cooldown time on Fist BM's skills are absurdly long to boot. Unlike those 2 classes, Assassin's skills have a very high damage output, extremely short channel, short cast, and has a lower cooldown than Archer and BM skills. And besides that, add 30 Attack levels on top tips the damage scale of all skills to damage +30%. Naturally, the number is very low for earlier skills, but Headhunt at level 1 is 55% weapon and 4000+ damage.
Let's just say it's a 600 damage average weapon, it'd be 330 + 4000 = 4330.
Add 30% on top of that and we'll have 4330 + 1299, making it 5629
Presuming the opponent has no physical defense, 5629 damage that has a casting time total of 2 seconds.
I really can't complain at that point, especially if it crits with 230% Rage, making it a startling 12946.7 damage for a level 1 skill (on a target with no defense).
With the sheer speed of Chi boost, at 3 sparks and skills that add up to 500 Chi (399 Chi + 500 = 899 Chi), you can easily use all three 2 spark moves, giving 30% Amp and an additional 40% Rage...
So, re-evaluating Rage at 270%...
15198.3
Then add 30% Amp...
19757.79 damage.
19757.70 damage calculated damage for a level 1 (2 spark) skill for a single crit hit without adding damage from the previous skills. And to re-state a point, Headhunt is greater than 4000+ additional damage, so this calculation is actually less than what it actually is.
And to think that this type of damage is more than possible every 60 seconds and happens within 8 seconds kind of makes your skin crawl.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
thats not realistic damage... #1 you cant make up numbers for damage, #2 youre not factoring in resistances at all.
now something that IS realistic, but in a 0 defense spectrum like yours, lets do my frost daggers + that 2.5 atk/s from earlier.
(weapon min/max + garnet + rings + level) x (1 + dex / 150 + mastery + spark)
(480 [or 719] + 75 [garnet gem] + 97 +97 [lunar rings as example]) + (1 + 400 [example dex] /150 + .6 + 5)
6941-9155 p.atk
(6941 + 9155) / 2 = 8048 average damage.
60 seconds in a minute, 60 x 2.5 = 150 attacks in a minute,
150 x 8048 = 1207200 damage in a minute. your skill spamming is fail in comparison.
make note this is without refines.0 -
If you want to put it that way, yours isn't realistic either. Yours is under the assumption of being under spark eruption all the time. You cannot gain enough chi to sustain a spark for 60 seconds without using the skills. Sparking requires 1~2 seconds cast depending on which is used. Each Chi gain skill is about 2 seconds long with the exception of Inner Harmony. Even at that, you can only sustain that type of damage at 1 minute best before it starts breaking down. In other words, yours is as equally, if not more, unrealistic than my equation. And my mistake, Heahunt level 2 is additional 4139.5, Headhunt 1 is 3845.9.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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i can goto 15 seconds and show you still it out damages you whether you want to agree or not.
it comes out to 301800 dps total for the duration of the spark this damage only rises exponentially at a ridiculous rate compared to skill spamming. skill spamming is plain stupid 60+0 -
To you, perhaps. Still, there's the question that arises for such skills like Rib Strike, which will eventually reduce enemy attack speed by half. After that we have the chi building attack skills which include immobilize. Then comes other semi-fast chi building skills such as knife throw (20 Chi). Or perhaps a bleed here and there, so the bleed can finish off something while you progress to the next monster to speed up the process. Or the mere fact that you have to buff anyways to minimize damage taken.
Overall, it's tactics vs brawling.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
there is a difference between survival tactic and pure damage dealing, each has situations where theyre needed. when it comes to pure dps, attack speed is the most important thing in the world. theres essentially no need for skills. attack speed is very relevant to an assassin or any other heavily melee oriented class (archer, fist bm)0
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I suppose the real difference is the background we come from. Since I'm a methodical thinker and planner, I take all things into consideration. As hard as you want to ignore the fact, a sparked attack skill will always outdamage a sparked normal attack. While your strategy cannot be achieved pre-99, mine can be post-30. Until you actually reach 99, the skill spammer will definitely outpace you in spike form and damage done.
Besides, as far as I've seen. Among the Assassins I've interviewed, it was the AoE skill spammer that ended up getting more things done faster (yet also more dangerous as well).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
the archer is effectively the same way prior to 60, where youre spamming skills to survive. a 'sparked attack' will never out damage an exponential build up of melee attacks. you may do more damage per 1 hit, but you will never out damage normal attacks. (its like trying to compare a wizard's damage compared to a BM or archer, one does huge damage per hit, but never will out damage the other two in damage per second.)
my strategy can be used in any end game spectrum of gameplay where interval gear is more readily avaliable, IE end game. (i have level 4x interval wrists) any fool still relying on skill spam then obviously has no idea what theyre doing, and just is wasting MP that can otherwise be effectively dispatching mobs without need of survivability skills at that state of play.
as hard as you want to ignore the math behind this all mr 'methodical thinker,' your inexperience in end game shows thoroughly. the only classes that should be skill reliant still at an end game plot is the ones who rely on magic to survive.0 -
I guess that's PvE style thinker for you (not one to consider those from PvP servers). Oh well, you continue with your way of thinking and I'll continue with mine. It's already apparent that you chose to disregard all the qualities of an assassin and turn it into something bland and already done.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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well, the whole point of the thread is to prove whether it is relevent or irrelevant. on an exponential growth curve in terms of damage, it shows the HUGE potential damage output the class can have. this is from a pure damage dealing point of view, and its a perfectly valid argument to show itts plenty relevent. theres nothing wrong with your style of play, im fully sure it makes for great survivability with the crappy defense of LA, but in an end game spectrum, im betting this will be a pure melee reliant class, using and abusing crits.0
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I guess that's PvE style thinker for you (not one to consider those from PvP servers).
I guess you've never seen a Fist BM solo a Cata Barb with 20K+ health. We're long past the point pretending that you can't DPS a class to death through their charms with normal attacks. Interval gear will always be relevant, although you'd need a lot of it to take down some of the hardier classes and until you get it, skill spam in PVP will probably work better, especially considering that most of them also debuff.
Skill spam is NEVER better in PVE when you can remain sparked a majority of the time. In the time it would take you to use two skills for 5k damage apiece (let's say Rib Strike and Rising Dragon), I'll have hit a monster 6-7 times for 2.5k damage apiece.0 -
Phoenix - Dreamweaver wrote: »I guess you've never seen a Fist BM solo a Cata Barb with 20K+ health. We're long past the point pretending that you can't DPS a class to death through their charms with normal attacks.
you know i have never actually seen that happen, only had people say it
got a vid o.O? would be nice to actually see it x30 -
Phoenix - Dreamweaver wrote: »I guess you've never seen a Fist BM solo a Cata Barb with 20K+ health. We're long past the point pretending that you can't DPS a class to death through their charms with normal attacks.you know i have never actually seen that happen, only had people say it
got a vid o.O? would be nice to actually see it x30 -
Lenn_ - Sanctuary wrote: »my point exactly, throw in all of the assassin's debilitating effects, and you have a damage dealing machine made for pure DPS :P.
=P How do you use those debilitating effects if you're going for your "pure DPS" with regular attacks?4x sin - Sacronox
3x psy- Aegento
5x wiz- Kimbley
3x ea - Mavado
Raging Tides-
3x cleric- Ishmael0 -
Lenn_ - Sanctuary wrote: »there is a thread in the BM forums of a 99 barb saying it happened to him and he has like 18k hp O_o;
yeahs i'm aware it can be done
i just want to actually see it xD0 -
Sacronox - Harshlands wrote: »=P How do you use those debilitating effects if you're going for your "pure DPS" with regular attacks?0
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Phoenix - Dreamweaver wrote: »I guess you've never seen a Fist BM solo a Cata Barb with 20K+ health. We're long past the point pretending that you can't DPS a class to death through their charms with normal attacks. Interval gear will always be relevant, although you'd need a lot of it to take down some of the hardier classes and until you get it, skill spam in PVP will probably work better, especially considering that most of them also debuff.
Skill spam is NEVER better in PVE when you can remain sparked a majority of the time. In the time it would take you to use two skills for 5k damage apiece (let's say Rib Strike and Rising Dragon), I'll have hit a monster 6-7 times for 2.5k damage apiece.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
hes not lying, melee damage gets really big as you level, hell with a slingshot that has around the same p.atk as my frost daggers ( level 85 weapon), i was hitting 3-4k a hit in my early 70s (my bow now hits for 4-6, crits for 9-15k). melee damage gets bigger and bigger man. the only reason why skills are hitting so hard with skills is because of the % modifier built into them due to daggers low attack, but as youll see, your melee will eventually out do it.0
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Basically you're just telling me that the modifier on Earthen Rift will overpower Melee attacks (400% and being an AoE move with a recast of 8 seconds). That last post just prioritized skilling, not go against it, just so you know.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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you need to realize the difference between damage per hit, and damage per second, dude. yes your skill will hit harder in one hit, but will not out damage melee over time you think like a wizard. theyre always focusing to maximize their damage in one hit in order to land as many spikes on their opponents as possible.
assassins dont play that way.
you are like the archer, focusing to maximize their damage over time with criticals. you do not have the fire power of a wizard to play like they do. if youre damage dealing on a boss, you will always outdamage the skill abuser after a period of time, because your attacks build up exponentially.
i dont know how to simplify it any more than that. skills just cant match melee over time in the long run.0 -
Lenn_ - Sanctuary wrote: »you need to realize the difference between damage per hit, and damage per second, dude. yes your skill will hit harder in one hit, but will not out damage melee over time you think like a wizard. theyre always focusing to maximize their damage in one hit in order to land as many spikes on their opponents as possible.
assassins dont play that way.
you are like the archer, focusing to maximize their damage over time with criticals. you do not have the fire power of a wizard to play like they do. if youre damage dealing on a boss, you will always outdamage the skill abuser after a period of time, because your attacks build up exponentially.
i dont know how to simplify it any more than that. skills just cant match melee over time in the long run.
she has a point and its the reason why i love assassin/rouge classes that have the lowest min/max atk weapons out of all the weapons in game but in higher lvls start owning because of there high criticals and DPS from melee hits. this is why classes like that are made like this have the weakest min/max atk in the game because at higher lvls they will be beyond godly and OP class if they had higher min/max atk.
at higher lvls once ur crit rate starts kicking in im 99% certain that melee hits will outdmg skill spamming. its just how these kinds of classes always have worked in many of MMOs. they suck at lower lvls but become godlike with the highest DPS ratios in the game at higher lvls.0 -
you need to realize the difference between damage per hit, and damage per second, dude. yes your skill will hit harder in one hit, but will not out damage melee over time you think like a wizard. theyre always focusing to maximize their damage in one hit in order to land as many spikes on their opponents as possible.
assassins dont play that way.
you are like the archer, focusing to maximize their damage over time with criticals. you do not have the fire power of a wizard to play like they do. if youre damage dealing on a boss, you will always outdamage the skill abuser after a period of time, because your attacks build up exponentially.
^This. tho as already said in lower lvls that wont work as good as in high lvls. so we have to wait till we rly will shine.0 -
In b4 Morty
"Only use punture wound, slipstream, and normal attack and you'll own mobs 30 levles above you. Also using any build other than 4dex 1 str means you fail and should reroll as a noob. All skills that stun, sleep, or silence your opponent are useless, and using Shadow Escape is cowardly."Full power to the Vagiroscope!0 -
Even for wizards, high damage skills generally suck for DDing... we spam our weaker but faster skills. We can keep up with melee damage just fine that way, even though we'll never be able to out-DD something with a good amount of -interval and/or crit.Wondering how much longer these **** packs are going to be around.0
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