Sage or Demon in a "Pickle"

tweakz · December 2009

Argh, those two along with Lucky are the last I'm looking for, and Solandri and I are on same server. b:sad

The FB89 drop ones appear to have gone way down in price since I got them, so price probably not an issue to consider.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

The FB89 ones have gone down because tons of 9x's do Brim and Eden on a regular basis now so those books have flooded the market. I payed 4 million for Demon Fox Form back when I was trying to get my skills. Nowadays, I've seen it go for 2 million.

The only time I've seen Demon Amp in AH, it was just as expensive as Sage Amp. There may be less of us Demon Venos around, but the sellers are just as greedy.

kotona · December 2009

As far as I can see, the demon skills are more for a PVP veno or Pking veno. But the sage skills are more for helping squadmates and in group situations. Either way it's a choice between if ur more of a solo or a squad kind of veno.

Demon Veno=more for rpk or pvp
Sage Veno= more for squads and gaining chi

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

That's a broad generalization that is not completely true. As was stated earlier, Demon Bramble, Lending Hand, Venomous, Nova, and Purge are all much more PvE oriented than their Sage counterparts.

As for the chi issue, Demon Venos are just as capable of building chi quickly as Sage Venos. Sages get Master Li's, Sage Venomous, and Sage Lending. Demons gets Demon Crush Vigor and Demon Lending. In fact, I can build chi faster than Sage Venos. Sage Veno skills do use less chi, but the Demon versions of those skills do more damage. All in all, I'd rather have the damage.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's a broad generalization that is not completely true. As was stated earlier, Demon Bramble, Lending Hand, Venomous, Nova, and Purge are all much more PvE oriented than their Sage counterparts.

As for the chi issue, Demon Venos are just as capable of building chi quickly as Sage Venos. Sages get Master Li's, Sage Venomous, and Sage Lending. Demons gets Demon Crush Vigor and Demon Lending. In fact, I can build chi faster than Sage Venos. Sage Veno skills do use less chi, but the Demon versions of those skills do more damage. All in all, I'd rather have the damage.

Yes, but Crush Vigor is a melee fox form skill. As an arcane veno, I only use fox form to cast amplify/purge, and on occasion, myriad. I also try to avoid melee range as much as possible, so if things go bad, I have more time to react to the situation.

Edit, lets not forget, only venomous and master li's technique are available at level 89, and lending hand isn't available until 99.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Wrong. Crush Vigor is a curse and has the same range as Amp. Fox Form has a 6 second cooldown. Casting CV and Amp fits perfectly in that 6 seconds. So you can immediately switch back to human form to nuke and frequently with one spark more than you went in with.

True, Lending Hand and Crush Vigor are level 99 skills, but I thought you're not supposed to judge Sage/Demon on just the first skills you can get. Especially now, with the BH quests, levelling is much easier and the return of the anni packs makes getting the skills easier. I went 89 levels without Sage Venomous and Master Li's. I had no problem going 10 more. Demon Venomous was well worth it.

Brael - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's a broad generalization that is not completely true. As was stated earlier, Demon Bramble, Lending Hand, Venomous, Nova, and Purge are all much more PvE oriented than their Sage counterparts.

As for the chi issue, Demon Venos are just as capable of building chi quickly as Sage Venos. Sages get Master Li's, Sage Venomous, and Sage Lending. Demons gets Demon Crush Vigor and Demon Lending. In fact, I can build chi faster than Sage Venos. Sage Veno skills do use less chi, but the Demon versions of those skills do more damage. All in all, I'd rather have the damage.

I would disagree about demon lending being more pve oriented, but it's not really important. On the chi issue though:
Sage - Master Li's=50/minute, Lending Hand=100/minute, Venomous=+6/cast (16 vs 10 average).
Demon - Lending Hand=80/minute, Crush Vigor=100/minute.

That's 150 for a sage and 180 for a demon before venomous. To match that 30 chi difference it takes 5 casts of venomous. Seeing as how venomous is cast 15-20 times a minute (or more with great channeling), that leaves the chi generating advantage in favor of a sage by about 75/minute (after accounting for more lucky from the demon). On top of that, as you've pointed out sages use less chi on their skills (though I don't find this advantage to be particularly large... I find it most useful on stunning blow). Sages have more chi by a pretty good margin. Without working out the exact chi generation for sage/demon, it looks like it's around a 25% advantage for sage and potentially use less (but never use more).

I'm not saying a demon can't build chi, but it's not as fast as a sages. If you generate chi faster than a sage veno, that veno either lacks skills or playing ability.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

You forgot to factor in the 10 chi Crush Vigor generates independent of the chance to gain a spark. Also, by your own logic in a past post, Master Li's only gives 35 chi since you lose out on the chi you would've gotten had you used an attack spell instead. To cast Venomous 15-20 times a minute you would have to cast one every 3-4 seconds. I doubt anyone machineguns Venomous like that. Grinding, you would use Ironwood and pet heal as well, while on bosses you would use all your skills to generate chi. I'd say a more realistic guess would be 10 times a minute. So by my calculations, Sage comes out ahead by 35 chi. That's not much. Especially when you take into account more than half of these skills are chance based and if the Demon Veno gets lucky, it's not hard to overtake the Sage Veno.

I'd consider Demon Lending Hand more PvE based. You don't have a lot of time to transfer sparks during PvP/TW. Giving two sparks at the cost of one means Clerics and Barbs will need less chi from me and thus frees me up to DD/debuff more.

Brael - Dreamweaver · December 2009

I wasn't going through with detailed casting on a per minute basis for sage/demon there, just looking at the generation for those skills. When you're accounting for the opportunity cost on skills you can gain 16 chi from befuddling (since you're in fox anyways), and with an average 60 chi per cast from crush vigor (including the 10 to cast it) that's only 44 chi for +88/minute.

Sage/demon have different casting patterns, because demon can cast lucky more and loses damage on blazing (even at full duration), that's why I didn't go through it second by second, it's too much work to do quickly.

When it comes to chaining venomous. With 33% channeling that's 1 per 2 seconds. 15-20 per minute is 30-40 seconds used on venomous. Then there's 12 spent in fox, and that leaves you 8-18 seconds for other abilities. If your pet isn't tanking, that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Not everyone has 33% channeling. Realistically, most have 10-20%. The scenario you have there is the max amount of times someone could cast Venomous. That doesn't mean they cast it that many times. Most won't cast it that many times. They either opt for more damaging spells or spend time doing other things(i.e. healing themselves, healing their pet, chatting, moving to another mob, etc). If a Sage Veno needs to sit there and machinegun Venomouses to keep up with a Demon Veno in the chi department, I think it's safe to say Demon Venos can do just fine building chi. Also, keep in mind that if I get lucky with Crush Vigor that means I get 220 chi that minute which blows away anything a Sage Veno can bring.

EDIT: Just reread your post Brael and something clicked. I usually stay at 10m from a boss unless it has random aggro. If I used Befuddling Mist, I would have to run into melee range, cast it, and then run out of melee range to nuke. Just the time it takes to run in and out would take more than 3 seconds. That's not a fair comparison to Master Li's opportunity cost. If you wanted to make it fair, the only thing I could do to generate chi in Fox Form at 10m, besides casting another curse, is to use pet heal and pet heal gives 8 chi, I think. CV gives more.

tweakz · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not everyone has 33% channeling. Realistically, most have 10-20%.

Most don't use Amp, or Ironwood on bosses either or have the equips to do everything their level allows or calls for. If they're buying sage / demon skills, I'd think they could afford some -6% gears.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Sometimes it's not about cost. Most of the -6% gear only comes with that stat. I, for one, would rather get something cheaper that adds to magic attack/vit/hp/magic then sacrifice those extra stats just for a little more channeling. Before I got my TT99 magic sword and sleeves, I ran around with 0 channeling gear. I had no problems healing my Herc when it was tanking or DDing.

Brael - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not everyone has 33% channeling.

Seeing as how we're including level 99 skills into the comparison, I think level 99 gear is reasonable to include. 33% channeling is having 6% channeling on 5 of 6 slots: neck, wrist, ring, ring, belt, weapon. Bracers are pretty much free 6% channeling, rings are fairly cheap atleast on DW. I assume they're more available on older servers. They cost about 6 mil here, as do necks (note: I don't have 6% on those slots... but I'm weird and refuse to use any crafted gear that doesn't say I manufactured it, they're still very obtainable for me though if I wanted to use them). That's four slots right there. A final 6% could be a weapon (blade of the red dust, neon purgatory, etc), a wraith conquerer+2 piece 99 bonus, or a 6% belt. That gets you 30, then there's the practically free 3% robe for 5k rep. 33% right there.

Realistically, most have 10-20%. The scenario you have there is the max amount of times someone could cast Venomous. That doesn't mean they cast it that many times. Most won't cast it that many times.

That's why I gave a range of 15-20 casts. There's plenty of mitigating circumstances such as lag, talking, and so on which you also mentioned. 15 for a low end seems perfectly reasonable though. That works out to casting venomous 50% of the time you're killing.

Also, keep in mind that if I get lucky with Crush Vigor that means I get 220 chi that minute which blows away anything a Sage Veno can bring.

You also have the same chance to get 20 chi in a minute from Crush Vigor which means a sage is going to utterly destroy you for that time period. That's why it's best to take the average for a comparison. You can spike, but you can also be unlucky and not spike.

EDIT: Just reread your post Brael and something clicked. I usually stay at 10m from a boss unless it has random aggro. If I used Befuddling Mist, I would have to run into melee range, cast it, and then run out of melee range to nuke. Just the time it takes to run in and out would take more than 3 seconds. That's not a fair comparison to Master Li's opportunity cost. If you wanted to make it fair, the only thing I could do to generate chi in Fox Form at 10m, besides casting another curse, is to use pet heal and pet heal gives 8 chi, I think. CV gives more.

True, I was assuming you would be closer than 10m to take advantage of fox skills. There's no real difference between 4m and 10m unless something has random aggro or a very short range ae. Why run in and out? And there's time for two skills with amp, so using CV alone isn't going to fill out your fox form time. Leech, befuddle, etc can all fit in there too.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Refer to my last post as to why not everyone chooses to get 6% channeling gear. Also, out of the 6 slots you have to add channeling, most use Sky Demon's/TT90 Gold necklace for the 5% HP so there's one slot down. Weapon and sleeves are simple and I have those myself. Rings with just 6% are easy to get, but like I said I am not going to sacrifice the HP/magic attack from my rings just for the channeling. Rings with channeling plus other bonuses are exponentially more expensive whether they be crafted, lunar, or whatever. As for the rank top, I'll take the defense, magic, and vit of my TT90 top. At this point, people also have access to the OHT areas and the belts from those areas. Again, rather have that than a belt with just the channeling.

You also have the same chance to get 20 chi in a minute from Crush Vigor which means a sage is going to utterly destroy you for that time period. That's why it's best to take the average for a comparison. You can spike, but you can also be unlucky and not spike.

True, but when I do get lucky it's easy to build chi faster than a Sage Veno. It's much easier to get lucky with Crush Vigor than Venomous or Lending Hand. Besides, we're talking about a 35-75 chi difference. In practical terms, that's nothing really. I'm just tired of people not understanding that Demon Venos are just as capable of building chi.

True, I was assuming you would be closer than 10m to take advantage of fox skills. There's no real difference between 4m and 10m unless something has random aggro or a very short range ae. Why run in and out? And there's time for two skills with amp, so using CV alone isn't going to fill out your fox form time. Leech, befuddle, etc can all fit in there too.

As Squeakytoy pointed out, being further away grants you more time to react if things go sideways. Why bother being at 4m when being at 10m allows me to cast all my spells, be in the BB(if there is one), and allows me sufficient time to run/Bramble/Feral or whatever if things go wrong. I remember you posted that there's time to cast 2 skills plus Amp in the 6 seconds of Fox Form's cooldown only if you use a macro. I, for one, don't have any more space for another macro. Doing it by hand, makes it fit good enough. There's no seam between going into Fox, CV, AMP, and going out of Fox.

Brael - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Refer to my last post as to why not everyone chooses to get 6% channeling gear.

I suppose. It's always possible to swap it in though. Anyways, I think that as you hit higher levels channeling becomes less important for pet heals and more important for nukes, this is because there's just not that much content where you need a huge amount of channeling to handle, rather any veno can or can't handle it. If you give up 10% damage in magic attack/crit rate to gain 33% channeling, you're gaining about 9% more damage output (110% vs 120%). Anyways, I realize not everyone will have 6% channeling, but I was pointing out what you can expect standard for a veno that wants channeling.

True, but when I do get lucky it's easy to build chi faster than a Sage Veno. It's much easier to get lucky with Crush Vigor than Venomous or Lending Hand.

I suppose what you mean by getting lucky. Venomous gets far more trials so will be less spiky, and hold much closer to it's average. It also has a lower range. In 15 casts of venomous you get between 150 and 450 chi. In two casts of CV you get between 20 and 220 chi. Hitting either extreme with venomous is not only much rarer, but less detrimental when it goes bad.

As Squeakytoy pointed out, being further away grants you more time to react if things go sideways. Why bother being at 4m when being at 10m allows me to cast all my spells, be in the BB(if there is one), and allows me sufficient time to run/Bramble/Feral or whatever if things go wrong.

Veno's have the weakest nukes in the game. We have a tougher time pulling aggro with nukes than any other class. On a typical mob we're going to be behind the wizards and archers. Two classes that attack from range. I would argue that if you're trying to be away from the mob if things go bad, it's safer to be next to the mob than far away, because when the tank dies it's charging those wizards/archers, meaning it's moving away from you. In the case of BB, being at 4 leaves you in it as well as long as it's also hitting the Barb, and the whole argument of being at 4m rather than 10m is that it allows you to use more of your skills. Maybe it's less important for demon since as you've pointed out, CV is used when you go fox every 30 seconds. That only leaves you a potential one skill (leech most likely) to fill in the extra time.

I remember you posted that there's time to cast 2 skills plus Amp in the 6 seconds of Fox Form's cooldown only if you use a macro. I, for one, don't have any more space for another macro. Doing it by hand, makes it fit good enough. There's no seam between going into Fox, CV, AMP, and going out of Fox.

Right, you can probably do it without a macro too actually but you have to use lesser skills. Befuddle and fox are .7 channel/.5 cast while leech and consume are .8 channel/1.1 cast. I found out recently that my hotkey actually breaks if I use befuddle and leech because I hit the portion of the macro that takes me out of fox again before the cooldown has finished.

Also keep in mind, going by what you've said you have low channeling. With 10% channeling amp/cv are each 1.35 channel/1.2 cast. That's 2.55 seconds for each one or 5.1 seconds total with a 6 second cooldown on fox. After factoring latency in, even a fast skill (befuddle) is delaying you leaving fox by half a second.

tweakz · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sometimes it's not about cost. Most of the -6% gear only comes with that stat. I, for one, would rather get something cheaper that adds to magic attack/vit/hp/magic then sacrifice those extra stats just for a little more channeling. Before I got my TT99 magic sword and sleeves, I ran around with 0 channeling gear. I had no problems healing my Herc when it was tanking or DDing.

Magic attack: as a stat on equips, it's probably going to provide far less dps than -6% ch and will rarely change hits per kill on grind mobs.
Vit: Use alternative cheaper ornaments for vit and def only when you need it.
HP: is over rated.
Magic: Go pure mag, and this shouldn't be much of an issue.

If you had no problems healing your Herc, you weren't pushing the limits or testing the waters. -boo

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Being 10m means I'm between the ranged classes and the melee classes. So yes, if things go wrong and the boss goes raging after a DD, I'm still safe and I'm in a more flexible position. Since I'm a caster Veno, my nukes do far more damage than my Fox skills and give comparable chi. So, the less time I'm in Fox mode the better my damage output will be.

Not everyone thinks channeling is the be-all end-all stat. Sure it may beat out any one of those stats but my gear has three of those stats per piece of equipment. I may be giving up some damage output, but the extra hp/defense makes up for it. Frequently, I see casters with equips with just -6 channeling. If that's what you want to do, go ahead, but I'd rather not be limited like that. I still have a high damage output, but that's tempered with a good defense and solid HP.

DayzFade - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Waffles you're killin me and I don't even have a nix b:cry

If you absolutely must have those skills to set you apart at 90, I suggest demon. Should you still intend to play, by the time you've done your culti, your quests and dailies you'll be more than halfway to 91 with 92 just a small push away.

I would suggest sage sooner to someone that intends to keep their traditional play style with venomous, ironwood, rinse repeat with a few very nice squad skills to boot. Quite envious of that hp debuff from degen when I see bosses drop 60% over a matter of seconds.

Demon caters to a bit of a different play style you get your skills that are prime and spammable early on but you may feel as though you lose a bit in the long run. All of your spells and other veno's spells will do more dmg sooner via demon venomous, but at the same time if you intend to reach 92 later anyway, you get a very nice wood mastery that increases all wood dmg by a percentage meaning you never necessarily have to spam up the venom skill.

Fox Form -Having been cheap and without a super cash shop flyer, I quite enjoy the advantages to fox form for demons as it gets me moving at 10.4 mps, but at the same time I know now that i've given up one of my best protections for swapping to heavy and joining TW as the defense difference is significantly higher in sage fox.

Bramble - sage duration is wonderful for a squad, but my demon one will win out every time simply for the inc to 75% return. I strongly do not recommend making this skill a deciding factor unless you decide you rather enjoy playing a heavy veno as it is unnecessary to get the form for either sage or demon off the bat. As a caster, I do not intend to be hit unless I am nuking **** and making the squad do this Oo so the buff itself is really primarily to benefit squad mates.

Ironwood - Demon form will give you an amazing smile when it activates, hell if you plan to heal 4 times then hit it you can almost expect it. But the key word here is almost and almost just doesn't cut it for efficiency.
Sage form will not only increase the amount you take off from an enemies defense but it will always activate and it will run longer durations allowing you to save chi for the times you want to spark up or save in for that nova of crowd control. It adds wonderful efficiency to your play in a squad for long runs.

Just a few things to think over as they were a big key in what I pondered for my decision. Have fun and enjoy whichever side you chose to take.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If a Sage Veno needs to sit there and machinegun Venomouses to keep up with a Demon Veno in the chi department, I think it's safe to say Demon Venos can do just fine building chi. Also, keep in mind that if I get lucky with Crush Vigor that means I get 220 chi that minute which blows away anything a Sage Veno can bring.

I know you guys are arguing about caster venos, and I'm not gonna comment on that since it doesn't really interest me. But I just wanted to point out that I'm planning to go Sage primarily for the melee mastery bonus (200% vs. 150% for demon).

4 chi per hit @ 1.25 attacks per sec = 5 chi per sec = 300 chi per minute. If you factor in the -0.2 interval I should have by 90, that works out to 400 chi per minute. True a demon veno could melee too, but outside of PvP they have much less reason to melee than sage veno (at least non-skill melee which is the prodigious spark generator). Add in master li's technique for 450 chi per minute, and I can spend 75% of my time doing single-spark damage.

tweakz · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not everyone thinks channeling is the be-all end-all stat. Sure it may beat out any one of those stats but my gear has three of those stats per piece of equipment. I may be giving up some damage output, but the extra hp/defense makes up for it.

HP/ Defense can be made up for with refines / imbues, so it really does come down to coin. -Ch isn't the only thing I prioritize either: +m/s is also not something you can't refine / imbue to compensate for but helps you kill quicker. The higher kill rate more than compensates for the very small increase in survivability you get by prioritizing HP/Def. -% Ch can also save your but by killing before you're killed.

Brael - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Being 10m means I'm between the ranged classes and the melee classes. So yes, if things go wrong and the boss goes raging after a DD, I'm still safe and I'm in a more flexible position. Since I'm a caster Veno, my nukes do far more damage than my Fox skills and give comparable chi. So, the less time I'm in Fox mode the better my damage output will be.

I'm not advocating spending more time in fox, rather that the 20% of the time you're in fox (simply out of necessity to amp and cv) can be put to better use. I don't know what your physical attack is when you're in fox (without swapping gear) but I'm going to guess 1850-2550 since you have higher stat gear, and with sage melee mastery mine is 1950-2650. So lets call it 2200. Sage/Demon leech is base+3505 damage. So you're looking at 5705 damage. It's free damage, so why not use it? Calculating spells without knowing your stats becomes a bit of a mess, but that 5705 twice a minute probably works out to being the same as one venomous. It's not about fox on it's own being some amazing damage source for arcane venos, but rather that it's some decent damage to add in when you're otherwise not doing any, and the extra effects can be useful too.

Not everyone thinks channeling is the be-all end-all stat. Sure it may beat out any one of those stats but my gear has three of those stats per piece of equipment. I may be giving up some damage output, but the extra hp/defense makes up for it. Frequently, I see casters with equips with just -6 channeling. If that's what you want to do, go ahead, but I'd rather not be limited like that. I still have a high damage output, but that's tempered with a good defense and solid HP.

HP never really bother me, if defense is needed though I can handle myself. I've got physical gear I carry with me (which I think most arcane venos end up doing anyways at higher levels) for the times I need it. The difference though is most of it is cheap gear such as a fearless blaze that I crafted one day that has 4 sockets and 2 +94 physical bonuses, a cube lottery coin neck, an amulet of purity with 91 physical, and so on. I fully realize that one disadvantage to channeling is that your defense will suffer, there's no debating that. However, defense is one of those things that you don't always need. When you need it, swaps can be made and when you don't (the majority of the time) you've got better damage output.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

4 chi per hit @ 1.25 attacks per sec = 5 chi per sec = 300 chi per minute. If you factor in the -0.2 interval I should have by 90, that works out to 400 chi per minute. True a demon veno could melee too, but outside of PvP they have much less reason to melee than sage veno (at least non-skill melee which is the prodigious spark generator). Add in master li's technique for 450 chi per minute, and I can spend 75% of my time doing single-spark damage.

Recalculate that with triple spark. 100 chi for 150% vs 300 chi for 500%. I would think you would come out ahead more.

Vidalaire - Heavens Tear · December 2009

HP/ Defense can be made up for with refines / imbues, so it really does come down to coin. -Ch isn't the only thing I prioritize either: +m/s is also not something you can't refine / imbue to compensate for but helps you kill quicker. The higher kill rate more than compensates for the very small increase in survivability you get by prioritizing HP/Def. -% Ch can also save your but by killing before you're killed.

Isn't this the exact opposite arguement of why you think Sage Fox Form is better than Demon Fox Form? Here you're prioritizing speed over Hp/Def. Whereas when it came down to Fox Form you went the other way. Regardless, I have all the speed I need from Demon Fox Form. I prioritize HP/Def and Magic/Magic Attack. So it doesn't just come down to survivability. I have all those stats on my gear INSTEAD of just channeling.

Honestly, I can't justify giving up two stats per piece of gear just to up my channeling no matter how much math you throw at me. If that's what you want to do, to each his own. True I could use the channeling set and swap in the def/hp/mag set, but you don't always have time to swap it in when you need it. When you get ambushed or a sac assault mob spawns on your back, you have seconds to react. I don't mind giving up a little damage output(which also does not affect my kill speed) to have some extra def/HP/mag for those times.

True, those two Leechs per minute would roughly equal the dmg of one Venomous, but like you said I get delayed a half a second each time. Combine that second with the debuff from my Demon Venomous and I think the Venomous is the better option.

Sage or Demon in a "Pickle"

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