Not another guide about veno's role in a squad
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Dystery - Sanctuary
Posts: 52 Arc User
Because of easy xp, easy gear, easy gems, and so on, I've seen too-many experienced-looking veno acting as beginners. I must though admit that with higher levels, Venos are not that easy to deal efficiently with, especially in a squad.
I also too often experienced lack of consideration from some who don't know venomancer's actual benefits in a squad, mainly because genies gave the opportunity to lure as well and also because we were poor damage dealers compared to Blade Masters or Wizards. Some may have been right according to the first point, but mainly, I think some people (not all!) don't realize that our main benefit is to make other squadies deal more damage, thus accelerating boss death.
So, this guide's purpose is to share my experience (and not teach you how to play!) about veno's role in a squad.
This guide is about Veno's role in a squad (mainly about bosses), for veno AND non-veno players.
This guide is not About skills, builds, Best Pet, Demon/Sage, fox form, genies, cookies, etc. For those, you will find very good guides sticked * on top of your favorite forum.
Lure :
To get rid about this point, let's make it fast : although genies have made luring available to all race (through zeal's earthflame mainly), veno's luring is still the only "free" safe luring method. Genie stamina is expensive, and your squad will thus appreciate to save some of it. Send your pet and stow it as soon as you see its current skill is being used. Then let your fellow squadies intercept the angry mob while you're calling your pet back
Make DD deal more damage :
Despite the fact we will hardly do at least as many damage as a BM, Wizard or Archer, we can do so their damage and other squadies' damage reach unexpected amounts.
=> To do that, we have 4 skills we must learn how to use : Bramble guard, Lending Hand, IronWood scarab and Amplify. And you may also have a pet with support skills (1)
Bramble guard should ALWAYS be cast on tank, and NEVER even considered on other members. Since it reflects melee damage, it's a wonderfull aggro holder skill. But if tank happens to lose agro, bramble could be a disaster if someone else unexpectingly keeps aggro because of it. Be sure it is always active on tank. And then the mob always will receive part of its own melee damage. Good, isn't it?
Lending Hand : To use this skill, you need sparks, lot of them (1 available spark every 60 seconds). In order to do that, avoid spending your chi on non vital skills. Avoid Frost scarab, Myriad Rainbow, parasitic Nova or Spark Eruption : about this last one, remember that your main goal is that your squad's damage dealers deal more damage... Your dealing more damage does not mean the whole squad will deal more damage ; but this may lead to aggro stealing. Very bad idea...
Also, sometimes, you happen to be out of chi-free skills (especially when you're in fox form waiting for human form cooldown). If you are short on chi, then heal your pet : you'll get free chi, although you'll deal no damage nor will you actually heal your pet since it's not tanking. If you have enough chi, just wait for the cooldown (1).
Mainly, lend hand as often as you can!
Then, one question remains : who should you feed with sparks? Depending on your squad, because too much damage could lead to agro stealing.. so mainly, feed the tank so that he can keep aggro with -e.g.- his flesh realm. If a cleric is bubbling, be sure he always have one spark left in case his bubble is interrupted. But the best way to give sparks is to speak : ask your squadies who need, and usually you'll get the same answer... but not always.
Amplify Damage : +20% more damage.. should I explain why it's very important to max this skill? As often as you can, go fox form and amplify. And since you need a few more seconds to go back to human form, heal your pet (looks useless but your actually get free usefull chi for little mana) : remember that only one curse at a time can occur. It also means if there are more than 1 veno in your squad, you'll have to alternate "amplify" since they don't stack.
Though, there is one thing you must be aware of : amplify damage has a very close range... so if you're pure arcane, don't amplify if the mob is dealing strong AOE (especially physical) unless you're sure you'll survive it. Stay safe from it.
IronWoord scarab : Although it's chi consuming, it's the other veno's best way to amplify damage. You should cast it as often as you can. It's the only chi consuming skill that is allowed. Also, same as amplify, IronWood effects don't stack. Remember it if there are more than 1 veno in the squad.
Damage Dealing:
yes, you can also deal some damage... 2 ways for it.
Skills : Blazing, Venomous, Ironwood and Lucky scarabs are one way to do it. Especially efficient if you are well geared (magic rings and weapons mainly) and full arcane. Fox Form chi-free skills are another way. See Arcane/HA veno guides about them.
Your pet : remember it? Now, since there is little chance that it steals aggro from the main tank, and unless the boss is dealing AOE, maybe you should summon your best DD pet instead of your best tank. Although not everyone can afford to level up more than 3 pets (air, water and ground), a second DD pet is usefull. And this one should also be a support pet, i.e. with support skills : Howl, Pierce, Threaten, Shriek (usefull for interrupting some boss' annoying skills, but not easy to use) and maybe one damage dealing skill such as flesh realm or bash (*). Be carefull that even if it nearly never happens, your pet might steal agro. So prefer flesh realm to bash despite the fact it has a longer cooldown.
About pet's support skills : be carefull not to use them while there is still one of your curse of the same type active on boss. Try to alternate so that there is always one damage amplifier curse active.
A few other things usefull :
Debuffing myst (3) : despite its very short range (melee), this fox-form skill happen to be usefull because of its ability to reduce the amount of boss' succesfull attacks. If you can afford to go very close to the mob, this must be considered. I myself rarely use it since I saw little difference about it. I may be wrong though. Your experience would be welcomed about it.
Eventually, this could be cast while you are waiting for "human form" cooldown and assuming you're already at melee range.
Purge... when you've enough skill points available and once you've maxed out the main skills, consider maximizing this one. Although only a few bosses buff themselves, removing those buffs is always welcomed. Level 1 purge is though quite useless since most of those using buffs do it quite often and it has a -huge!- 120s cooldown. Maxed Purge has the same - 30s - cooldown as amplify so you can do both of them when going fox form.
Running through mobs, and about your pet : Sometimes, especially in Twilight Temple, (usually) your tank will propose to run through mobs to a safe zone (out of agro, on the opposite side of a portal, etc.). He will go first and aggro every mobs so that you can run safely behind him. Something VERY important you must know about this : this method is quite safe unless your pet is out. Your pet may attract mobs (Although I am not really sure about the "how", I am sure about the fact) that were supposed to loose aggro after some time. This may lead to a party wipe out since this method is safe unless you have to fight the mobs you were supposed to be running away from. So, it your team leader propose it, stow your pet before running.
About pots and genies: (3) I won't give any advices about pots and genies, especially because pots and genies are mainly common to all classes. Actually, there are a few you could efficiently use according to previous points, and regarding boss' element, type, squad's members, builds, etc. Mainly, pots are a way to improve your efficiency on your role baseline, and sometimes break a few rules (eg. chi/spark pots).
lvl 79 skills : (3)
Level 79 Myriad Rainbows (fox and human forms) are quite usefull, although they are chi-consuming and have a shorter duration than Ironwood / amplify. The main problem is that their (powerfull!) effects are random, and since they may stack the same effect as some other skills (ie magic and physical defense), they may replace some that was (or were) previously active. And since they have a short duration, and also since the timer is not reset, this could result in the lost of some precious seconds of debuff. So, in order to be the most efficient, you'll have to use them wisely so that they won't stack on each other.
But something is very precious with these skills : they have instant chanelling, so you can cast them even if you focus on spam-healing your pet. Thus, you can still be a damage amplifier even while e.g. tanking with your herc.
I won't give many more advices about these : This guide aims to help all level venos, and they are lvl 79+ skills, and not all 79+ veno have both fox form and human form myriad rainbow.
Herc:
If you have a herc.... then forget almost eveything I said before. You're now another kind of fellow squady : your role may be to become the main tank... I mean your Herc will be. For that, there are 2 things you need :
- being nearly full arcane and having maxed the "heal pet" skill. Maximizing "ressurect pet" is also a good bonus in case your herc happen to die. Alternately, another veno in a squad, or both of you, can heal your pet while it's tanking. The point is that you can heal the herc faster than it takes damage.
- be sure your herc has enough HP to not-be one-shot . Indeed : be sure its buffs are active
If you do not match both points, then forget it and refer to previous points.
If you do , mainly, your role will be to heal your herc while the other members of the squad will be dealing damage. Barbs especially will love you for the repair cost you will save for them.
Also, sometimes you heal faster than needed. So, if you have time to do a few skills between 2 healings, refer to previous points about damage amplification. Try to alternate heals/amplify/ironwood/lending hand. Lending hand especially is still intersting now that you have plenty of sparks that your very few Ironwood Scarabs will not be enough to spend. Make sure that Damage Dealers deal a lot more damage, thus.
Rebirth:
Rebirth is a little different since it one of the rare opportunity you'll have to deal AOE damage. There are also a few guides* that will describe the way to deal with it. But mainly, when you are dealing with a boss, those rules still apply. For the mobs wave, see guides.
Conclusion :
There are a lot of things you have to do: luring, go fox form, Amplifying, heal, human form, Ironwood, your skills, pet skills, lend hand, bamble, etc... all of this becomes a great mess when you are trying to make a macro. Forget about going afk while you're in a squad : a veno can't afford. Use a macro only for the part when you deal damage and after you've amplified and/or lent hand. Managing all this is really not easy, and you'll sometimes forget some skills. It happens. Just learn how to use your skills and your pet, and experience will stack on top of it to make you the one all squad will be looking for.
(*) A few guides usefull and sticked guides
Ultimate Noob Genie Guide
Arcane/Robe Veno guide
Rei's kinda-ok guide for Heavy/Robe Fox.
Comprehensive Venomancer Guide
Lengendary Pet Guide (Herc + Nix)
Pets, numbers, and sorting. Answer to the eternal "What's the best pet?" question !
Venomancer F.A.Q.
Search
Guide to Rebirth Guides
Vazil's Guide to Quick Pet Leveling
(**) : although the knowlin is not suited for usual grinding and general solo PvE, it's a very good DD + support pet for fighting bosses in a squad. Since it cames with flesh realm + 3 support skills and is lvl 60 based, you should consider taming/buying one once you reached level 60+ and keeps it maxed (in Cube of Fate, room 4). Although it's expensive, its base skills (don't need to change them) will make you save some money. Though most people just can't afford buying one : then there are a lot of other good DD pets, such as scorpios, and so on. Take a look at pet guides.
PS : obviously, all the skills I refered to should be maxed asap.
PS' : this guide is only a sketch of a better one. Feel free to point out the many mistakes, things that may miss, and so on.
PS '' : Before someone says it : I am not complaining about ppl's behavior about veno, nor am I saying my critics are about a majority of players. I was myself generally happy with the many squads I happened to join. But mainly, the few critics I received and the ones I made were a starting point to explain the "why?" of this guide. This guide purpose is then only to let more-or-less experienced venos share advices with those seeking for some about veno's role in a squad, and also non-veno to be able to understand a little more about us, and thus be able to turn squads to be more efficient.
PS''' : Most of you would have guessed I am no native english speaker. Do no hesitate to correct me (fairly).
I also too often experienced lack of consideration from some who don't know venomancer's actual benefits in a squad, mainly because genies gave the opportunity to lure as well and also because we were poor damage dealers compared to Blade Masters or Wizards. Some may have been right according to the first point, but mainly, I think some people (not all!) don't realize that our main benefit is to make other squadies deal more damage, thus accelerating boss death.
So, this guide's purpose is to share my experience (and not teach you how to play!) about veno's role in a squad.
This guide is about Veno's role in a squad (mainly about bosses), for veno AND non-veno players.
This guide is not About skills, builds, Best Pet, Demon/Sage, fox form, genies, cookies, etc. For those, you will find very good guides sticked * on top of your favorite forum.
Lure :
To get rid about this point, let's make it fast : although genies have made luring available to all race (through zeal's earthflame mainly), veno's luring is still the only "free" safe luring method. Genie stamina is expensive, and your squad will thus appreciate to save some of it. Send your pet and stow it as soon as you see its current skill is being used. Then let your fellow squadies intercept the angry mob while you're calling your pet back
Make DD deal more damage :
Despite the fact we will hardly do at least as many damage as a BM, Wizard or Archer, we can do so their damage and other squadies' damage reach unexpected amounts.
=> To do that, we have 4 skills we must learn how to use : Bramble guard, Lending Hand, IronWood scarab and Amplify. And you may also have a pet with support skills (1)
Bramble guard should ALWAYS be cast on tank, and NEVER even considered on other members. Since it reflects melee damage, it's a wonderfull aggro holder skill. But if tank happens to lose agro, bramble could be a disaster if someone else unexpectingly keeps aggro because of it. Be sure it is always active on tank. And then the mob always will receive part of its own melee damage. Good, isn't it?
Lending Hand : To use this skill, you need sparks, lot of them (1 available spark every 60 seconds). In order to do that, avoid spending your chi on non vital skills. Avoid Frost scarab, Myriad Rainbow, parasitic Nova or Spark Eruption : about this last one, remember that your main goal is that your squad's damage dealers deal more damage... Your dealing more damage does not mean the whole squad will deal more damage ; but this may lead to aggro stealing. Very bad idea...
Also, sometimes, you happen to be out of chi-free skills (especially when you're in fox form waiting for human form cooldown). If you are short on chi, then heal your pet : you'll get free chi, although you'll deal no damage nor will you actually heal your pet since it's not tanking. If you have enough chi, just wait for the cooldown (1).
Mainly, lend hand as often as you can!
Then, one question remains : who should you feed with sparks? Depending on your squad, because too much damage could lead to agro stealing.. so mainly, feed the tank so that he can keep aggro with -e.g.- his flesh realm. If a cleric is bubbling, be sure he always have one spark left in case his bubble is interrupted. But the best way to give sparks is to speak : ask your squadies who need, and usually you'll get the same answer... but not always.
Amplify Damage : +20% more damage.. should I explain why it's very important to max this skill? As often as you can, go fox form and amplify. And since you need a few more seconds to go back to human form, heal your pet (looks useless but your actually get free usefull chi for little mana) : remember that only one curse at a time can occur. It also means if there are more than 1 veno in your squad, you'll have to alternate "amplify" since they don't stack.
Though, there is one thing you must be aware of : amplify damage has a very close range... so if you're pure arcane, don't amplify if the mob is dealing strong AOE (especially physical) unless you're sure you'll survive it. Stay safe from it.
IronWoord scarab : Although it's chi consuming, it's the other veno's best way to amplify damage. You should cast it as often as you can. It's the only chi consuming skill that is allowed. Also, same as amplify, IronWood effects don't stack. Remember it if there are more than 1 veno in the squad.
Damage Dealing:
yes, you can also deal some damage... 2 ways for it.
Skills : Blazing, Venomous, Ironwood and Lucky scarabs are one way to do it. Especially efficient if you are well geared (magic rings and weapons mainly) and full arcane. Fox Form chi-free skills are another way. See Arcane/HA veno guides about them.
Your pet : remember it? Now, since there is little chance that it steals aggro from the main tank, and unless the boss is dealing AOE, maybe you should summon your best DD pet instead of your best tank. Although not everyone can afford to level up more than 3 pets (air, water and ground), a second DD pet is usefull. And this one should also be a support pet, i.e. with support skills : Howl, Pierce, Threaten, Shriek (usefull for interrupting some boss' annoying skills, but not easy to use) and maybe one damage dealing skill such as flesh realm or bash (*). Be carefull that even if it nearly never happens, your pet might steal agro. So prefer flesh realm to bash despite the fact it has a longer cooldown.
About pet's support skills : be carefull not to use them while there is still one of your curse of the same type active on boss. Try to alternate so that there is always one damage amplifier curse active.
A few other things usefull :
Debuffing myst (3) : despite its very short range (melee), this fox-form skill happen to be usefull because of its ability to reduce the amount of boss' succesfull attacks. If you can afford to go very close to the mob, this must be considered. I myself rarely use it since I saw little difference about it. I may be wrong though. Your experience would be welcomed about it.
Eventually, this could be cast while you are waiting for "human form" cooldown and assuming you're already at melee range.
Purge... when you've enough skill points available and once you've maxed out the main skills, consider maximizing this one. Although only a few bosses buff themselves, removing those buffs is always welcomed. Level 1 purge is though quite useless since most of those using buffs do it quite often and it has a -huge!- 120s cooldown. Maxed Purge has the same - 30s - cooldown as amplify so you can do both of them when going fox form.
Running through mobs, and about your pet : Sometimes, especially in Twilight Temple, (usually) your tank will propose to run through mobs to a safe zone (out of agro, on the opposite side of a portal, etc.). He will go first and aggro every mobs so that you can run safely behind him. Something VERY important you must know about this : this method is quite safe unless your pet is out. Your pet may attract mobs (Although I am not really sure about the "how", I am sure about the fact) that were supposed to loose aggro after some time. This may lead to a party wipe out since this method is safe unless you have to fight the mobs you were supposed to be running away from. So, it your team leader propose it, stow your pet before running.
About pots and genies: (3) I won't give any advices about pots and genies, especially because pots and genies are mainly common to all classes. Actually, there are a few you could efficiently use according to previous points, and regarding boss' element, type, squad's members, builds, etc. Mainly, pots are a way to improve your efficiency on your role baseline, and sometimes break a few rules (eg. chi/spark pots).
lvl 79 skills : (3)
Level 79 Myriad Rainbows (fox and human forms) are quite usefull, although they are chi-consuming and have a shorter duration than Ironwood / amplify. The main problem is that their (powerfull!) effects are random, and since they may stack the same effect as some other skills (ie magic and physical defense), they may replace some that was (or were) previously active. And since they have a short duration, and also since the timer is not reset, this could result in the lost of some precious seconds of debuff. So, in order to be the most efficient, you'll have to use them wisely so that they won't stack on each other.
But something is very precious with these skills : they have instant chanelling, so you can cast them even if you focus on spam-healing your pet. Thus, you can still be a damage amplifier even while e.g. tanking with your herc.
I won't give many more advices about these : This guide aims to help all level venos, and they are lvl 79+ skills, and not all 79+ veno have both fox form and human form myriad rainbow.
Herc:
If you have a herc.... then forget almost eveything I said before. You're now another kind of fellow squady : your role may be to become the main tank... I mean your Herc will be. For that, there are 2 things you need :
- being nearly full arcane and having maxed the "heal pet" skill. Maximizing "ressurect pet" is also a good bonus in case your herc happen to die. Alternately, another veno in a squad, or both of you, can heal your pet while it's tanking. The point is that you can heal the herc faster than it takes damage.
- be sure your herc has enough HP to not-be one-shot . Indeed : be sure its buffs are active
If you do not match both points, then forget it and refer to previous points.
If you do , mainly, your role will be to heal your herc while the other members of the squad will be dealing damage. Barbs especially will love you for the repair cost you will save for them.
Also, sometimes you heal faster than needed. So, if you have time to do a few skills between 2 healings, refer to previous points about damage amplification. Try to alternate heals/amplify/ironwood/lending hand. Lending hand especially is still intersting now that you have plenty of sparks that your very few Ironwood Scarabs will not be enough to spend. Make sure that Damage Dealers deal a lot more damage, thus.
Rebirth:
Rebirth is a little different since it one of the rare opportunity you'll have to deal AOE damage. There are also a few guides* that will describe the way to deal with it. But mainly, when you are dealing with a boss, those rules still apply. For the mobs wave, see guides.
Conclusion :
There are a lot of things you have to do: luring, go fox form, Amplifying, heal, human form, Ironwood, your skills, pet skills, lend hand, bamble, etc... all of this becomes a great mess when you are trying to make a macro. Forget about going afk while you're in a squad : a veno can't afford. Use a macro only for the part when you deal damage and after you've amplified and/or lent hand. Managing all this is really not easy, and you'll sometimes forget some skills. It happens. Just learn how to use your skills and your pet, and experience will stack on top of it to make you the one all squad will be looking for.
(*) A few guides usefull and sticked guides
Ultimate Noob Genie Guide
Arcane/Robe Veno guide
Rei's kinda-ok guide for Heavy/Robe Fox.
Comprehensive Venomancer Guide
Lengendary Pet Guide (Herc + Nix)
Pets, numbers, and sorting. Answer to the eternal "What's the best pet?" question !
Venomancer F.A.Q.
Search
Guide to Rebirth Guides
Vazil's Guide to Quick Pet Leveling
(**) : although the knowlin is not suited for usual grinding and general solo PvE, it's a very good DD + support pet for fighting bosses in a squad. Since it cames with flesh realm + 3 support skills and is lvl 60 based, you should consider taming/buying one once you reached level 60+ and keeps it maxed (in Cube of Fate, room 4). Although it's expensive, its base skills (don't need to change them) will make you save some money. Though most people just can't afford buying one : then there are a lot of other good DD pets, such as scorpios, and so on. Take a look at pet guides.
PS : obviously, all the skills I refered to should be maxed asap.
PS' : this guide is only a sketch of a better one. Feel free to point out the many mistakes, things that may miss, and so on.
PS '' : Before someone says it : I am not complaining about ppl's behavior about veno, nor am I saying my critics are about a majority of players. I was myself generally happy with the many squads I happened to join. But mainly, the few critics I received and the ones I made were a starting point to explain the "why?" of this guide. This guide purpose is then only to let more-or-less experienced venos share advices with those seeking for some about veno's role in a squad, and also non-veno to be able to understand a little more about us, and thus be able to turn squads to be more efficient.
PS''' : Most of you would have guessed I am no native english speaker. Do no hesitate to correct me (fairly).
Post edited by Dystery - Sanctuary on
0
Comments
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very nice. congrats.
please change purify to purge.
the only problem with your guide is that... those who REALLY need it won't ever read it. not your fault though.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you're willing to join another online game do NOT join any hosted by K2 NETWORK. Want to know why? Check BBB complaints.0 -
I'd make one teensy tiny quibble:
Going fox, doing amp and then just waiting/healing pet
Is worse than:
Going fox, doing something (or just waiting) and THEN amping.
The reason being that in the latter case you'll get more of your attacks in during the 20% boost
It's not a huge difference, but you might as well get it right.
You also might like to mention using the pet debuff skills (threaten, howl) to increase squad damage.0 -
Thank you for posting Dystery
Liked it, cause it seems to be a verry different but useful guide ^^
(And yea it is Purge instead of Purify..)0 -
A few suggestions:
Myriad is your best friend, specialy the fox form one. It uses a ton of mana, but it is well worth it, specialy if nobody else is debuffing. Myriad uses almost no chi, even though it is a MP hog. You should also get the human form one, it is nice to use when you have to spam heal your pet, since the myriads are insta-cast.
Here is how you maximize it:
Fox form ->myriad ->amp (if timer still not up)-> Debuffing Myst (tanks love that skill, since it makes the mob they are tanking miss them)
Also, use your DOT spells, specialy on boss fights, since they will the chance to actualy run for the duration of the DOT and, they have the highest damages of all our spells, if you combine the base + DOT.
Blazing -> Noxious -> Frost (our highest dps skill, if frostbite runs its duration).
You will also want to have purge maximized, since some bosses like to buff themselves.
There are pots and genie skills that give you sparks, so might as well have either cloud eruction on your genie or pack one or two spark pots, for those times you just used your spark skills and you need to pass a spark in a hurry to the cleric or tank. In general, you should be able to get one spark every 15-20 seconds, so there is really no point to save more than one spark, which lets you still use one or two sparks for skills, and still have one to pass to someone.Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.0 -
I follow that thing very often...XDVitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »I'd make one teensy tiny quibble:
Going fox, doing amp and then just waiting/healing pet
Is worse than:
Going fox, doing something (or just waiting) and THEN amping.
The reason being that in the latter case you'll get more of your attacks in during the 20% boost
It's not a huge difference, but you might as well get it right.
You also might like to mention using the pet debuff skills (threaten, howl) to increase squad damage.
Anyone that's interested in how to time it all, I'll put in my two cents:
Assuming both Fox Form and Amplify are on your shortcuts, this should be sorta easy to explain...XD...but yeah, once you go fox form, wait *or heal pet? I dunno - I usually wait* until the cooldown shadow thing covers half the icon then amp and by the time you finish casting amp, you should immediately be able to change back to normal form *and usually after I switch back, I cast Ironwood*.
Also...if you want to keep it consistent, keep an eye on the Amplify cooldown, too. Once the cooldown shadow thing reaches the upper left corner of the icon, switch to Fox Form, and Fox Form cooldown should already be halfway done *thing stated above* by the time Amplify finishes cooldown...and you can rinse and repeat above paragraph.
And ok...it ended up being easier done than said...XD Maybe someone else could explain better, rofl. Cheers to those that understood. XD
edit: now with pics...XD...0 -
Overall, a pretty good guide. A mentioned previously though, the only people reading this are likely to be players who are already competent, unfortunately.
A few glaring typos in there was well, such as "Flesh Realm" (which doesn't even make sense), and "Myriadtail Rainbow" (Myriadtail being a boss, perhaps the source of confusion).
The only part I truly, vehemently disagree with:In order to do that, avoid spending your chi on non vital skills. Avoid ... Myriadtail Rainbow (sic)
Myriad Rainbow, while consuming a vast amount of MP, has potentially devastating effects.
Worst case scenario?
It does nothing or just a DOT or two. Since it's instant cast, you haven't wasted any time, only a tiny portion of your chi, and gobbled a bunch of your own mana. Time to use a pot.
Best case scenario?
You score Magic or Armour break (or both), reducing the target's defence to zero.
This isn't all too much of a damage boost against [?] bosses admittedly, due to the damage reduction caused by the level difference (Lv.150).
On non-[?] bosses however, this is devastating. On a BH69 I was in some time ago, I scored a lucky Magic Break, at the same time as Amplify Damage and Dragon. This resulted in my scoring a hit for 73,000 damage on Polearm (might have been Gaurnob). I also meted out three more hits in the 30-40k range. Of course, that's just me... I haven't mentioned the two wizards who were also in that party, one who scored a hit for 86,000 damage.
Short Version: Amp + M.Break + Dragon = BH69 boss dead in less than 20 seconds.
Myriad Rainbow is very, very much worth using on non-[?] bosses.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Dystery - Sanctuary wrote: »
Bramble guard should ALWAYS be cast on tank, and NEVER even considered on other members. Since it reflects melee damage, it's a wonderfull aggro holder skill. But if tank happens to lose agro, bramble could be a disaster if someone else unexpectingly keeps aggro because of it. Be sure it is always active on tank. And then the mob always will receive part of its own melee damage. Good, isn't it?
Disagree with not casting bramble on other squad members. Phy aoe gets reflected (sometimes) so, its just free damage. Plus, there may be a secondary tank/BM, and casting bramble on them doesnt hurt
Lending Hand : To use this skill, you need sparks, lot of them (1 available spark every 60 seconds). In order to do that, avoid spending your chi on non vital skills.Myriadtail Rainbow, or Spark Eruption : about this last one, remember that your main goal is that your squad's damage dealers deal more damage... Your dealing more damage does not mean the whole squad will deal more damage ; but this may lead to aggro stealing. Very bad idea...
Disagree about no myriad rainbow, and spark eruption. Only send sparks to barbs that ask for it. We cant read their minds. Also, the time wasted on sparking a wizzie you could have sparked and done 30k+ more damage and saved some MP. Or, you could have saved the spark in case of a wipe/barb needs spark
Amplify Damage : +20% more damage.. should I explain why it's very important to max this skill? As often as you can, go fox form and amplify. And since you need a few more seconds to go back to human form, heal your pet (looks useless but your actually get free usefull chi for little mana) : remember that only one curse at a time can occur. It also means if there are more than 1 veno in your squad, you'll have to alternate "amplify" since they don't stack.
This is a good time to use myriad rainbow
Made some additions/my 2cents in the underlined text.I was early taught to work as well as play,
My life has been one long, happy holiday;
Full of work and full of play-
I dropped the worry on the way-
And God was good to me everyday.0 -
dont use debuffing mist if they are not in danger
debuffing mist will make boss miss tank and will not make bramble reflect
bramble reflect is really important part of keeping agro (bites is not allways enough)
*genie and incoming spychic completely broking wf classgenesis (r.i.p.) ===> conqueror (r.i.p.) ===> zen (r.i.p.) ===> iam (r.i.p.) ===> guardianz (r.i.p.) ===> spectral ===> essence
starting to be a nice guild hoppers b:surrender
go on my website it contains lots useful informations about PWI
[noparse]http://pequette.comuf.com[/noparse]0 -
There are some boss fights in this game where bramble guard SHOULD be cast on everyone,lord of percussion in tt is a good one.Physical aoe reflects.0
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great guide i wish 1/2 the veno's i've met in this game had read it
purify needs to be changed to purge but other than that?
well doneb:thanksGifs are hard to make work here0 -
I learned a few things thanks to you (bramble and Lord of Percussion especially*, but not only). I will correct and add those to the guide as soon as I have a little more time available.
Thanks for helping.
* About this : you confirm EVERY physical AOE is reflected by bramble guard?0 -
I don't think we can confirm ANY physical aoe being reflected, this seems to have changed a couple of times in the short time I've been playing, even.
As for myriad - that's a skill-book skill, not really something for a new players guide, surely?
Do you mean Parasitic Nova? The aoe stun that consumes two sparks? That one seems to fit more closely your "Try not to use up all your spark" advice.0 -
I did a few corrections, but lost some others because it looked like I reached some size limit.
So I will finish corrections later (will have to cut some parts to save space).
And since I eventually won't have space left for credits, I thank you all for your (present or futur) help.0 -
i totally agree with your post! and i wish so much that players would treat us like this. i especially liked your mention of the kowlin....once one of the most sought after pets, now, people use genies instead. but my girl is still one of the best i have for overall DDing, and fast as a whip to nail anything attacking me, without my even having to send her to each mob.Dystery - Sanctuary wrote: ».[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
(and hugs to Flauschkatze for the sig!)
"Thanks for writing me-- it's always great to hear from a vet.
-FrankieRaye"
Playing here since '08b:heart0 -
Dystery - Sanctuary wrote: »* About this : you confirm EVERY physical AOE is reflected by bramble guard?
In TT, yes. In other instances like Farren or Wyvern, I have never seen their AoE's reflect.Dystery - Sanctuary wrote: »Bramble guard should ALWAYS be cast on tank, and NEVER even considered on other members. Since it reflects melee damage, it's a wonderfull aggro holder skill. But if tank happens to lose agro, bramble could be a disaster if someone else unexpectingly keeps aggro because of it. Be sure it is always active on tank. And then the mob always will receive part of its own melee damage. Good, isn't it?
I disagree but mainly because if a melee class has been DDing properly they will have a higher agro over the magic classes. Therefore it will be easier for a melee class to take agro back from a squishy. It is best to ask who wants Bramble. I have come across Clerics and Wizards who love to have it on.
Lending Hand : To use this skill, you need sparks, lot of them (1 available spark every 60 seconds). In order to do that, avoid spending your chi on non vital skills. Avoid Frost scarab, Myriad Rainbow, parasitic Nova or Spark Eruption : about this last one, remember that your main goal is that your squad's damage dealers deal more damage... Your dealing more damage does not mean the whole squad will deal more damage ; but this may lead to aggro stealing. Very bad idea...
Frost is a waste, agreed. Myriad doesn't take that much chi and it is easy to make back. Nova is also a very good skill in combination with Myriad when AoE large groups of mobs (like in 89 Brimstone). The paralyze is a wonderful bonus. Triple spark eruption regens a certain amount of your MP. Hardly a waste. If they want to complain about not having chi, they can buy the Demon/Sage version for you and carry chi pots.
Mainly, lend hand as often as you can!
Wasted. No point in sending a spark when it's not asked for. I like my chi for myself because I know the strengths of my skills. I don't read minds. If the barb is going to chew through his chi and not ask me to help him gain some back, not my fault. I have more important things to do with it.
Then, one question remains : who should you feed with sparks? Depending on your squad, because too much damage could lead to agro stealing.. so mainly, feed the tank so that he can keep aggro with -e.g.- his flesh realm. If a cleric is bubbling, be sure he always have one spark left in case his bubble is interrupted. But the best way to give sparks is to speak : ask your squadies who need, and usually you'll get the same answer... but not always.
Always spark the BB cleric after it goes up. That way they have the ability to put it back up quickly if it drops for whatever reason. The barb/tank should have enough chi to get their skills off by the time you reach any boss. Cleric is the only one you spark without asking, but only if they've put up BB.
Amplify Damage : +20% more damage.. should I explain why it's very important to max this skill? As often as you can, go fox form and amplify. And since you need a few more seconds to go back to human form, heal your pet (looks useless but your actually get free usefull chi for little mana) : remember that only one curse at a time can occur. It also means if there are more than 1 veno in your squad, you'll have to alternate "amplify" since they don't stack.
Though, there is one thing you must be aware of : amplify damage has a very close range... so if you're pure arcane, don't amplify if the mob is dealing strong AOE (especially physical) unless you're sure you'll survive it. Stay safe from it.
That is irritating. I hate having to tell the other veno to amp on a boss. I hate having to remind them when I'm on my cleric. I get completely dumbfounded when I see them amp and then use Soul Degeneration or Crush Vigor. What the F... good is that? If there are two venos in a squad they could try timing their Amps to overlap so that the boss remains constantly debuffed. I did this once in TT with another veno when I wasn't tanking a boss. Bonus: I have Demon Amp so it lasts a long time anyway.
IronWoord scarab : Although it's chi consuming, it's the other veno's best way to amplify damage. You should cast it as often as you can. It's the only chi consuming skill that is allowed. Also, same as amplify, IronWood effects don't stack. Remember it if there are more than 1 veno in the squad.
If there is a Demon Veno in the squad they cast this skill, PAY ATTENTION! If it breaks then that break is better than any debuff you can come up with. Myriad is but a flicker since it lasts such a short time. All classes with debuffs should pay attention when a Veno uses Ironwood, especially a Demon Veno, or when a veno uses Myriad. Breaks are short and sweet and it's so irritating to see them overwritten.
Damage Dealing:
Your pet : remember it?
Most important.
1. If you do not have your pet summoned to DD, you fail. If you are in my squad, I will get you booted for your failure.
2. In TT or on any boss your pet cannot tank: turn off the attack skill! If your pet dies, that is no fault of the tank. A pet will generally have a higher damage output over any damage class, especially in TT. Do not QQ when you get your pet killed.
3. Repeated failure = lol @ you.
A few other things usefull :
Debuffing myst (3) : despite its very short range (melee), this fox-form skill happen to be usefull because of its ability to reduce the amount of boss' succesfull attacks. If you can afford to go very close to the mob, this must be considered. I myself rarely use it since I saw little difference about it. I may be wrong though. Your experience would be welcomed about it.
Eventually, this could be cast while you are waiting for "human form" cooldown and assuming you're already at melee range.
Only find this useful at bosses in TT that buff themselves. Otherwise, it's pointless for a caster built veno to go into FF to do anything other than Amp and Purge.
Purge... when you've enough skill points available and once you've maxed out the main skills, consider maximizing this one. Although only a few bosses buff themselves, removing those buffs is always welcomed. Level 1 purge is though quite useless since most of those using buffs do it quite often and it has a -huge!- 120s cooldown. Maxed Purge has the same - 30s - cooldown as amplify so you can do both of them when going fox form.
Excellent in PvP too! Particularly good against pesky barbs, cleric, and other venos. Purging a spark = insta hate.
Running through mobs, and about your pet : Sometimes, especially in Twilight Temple, (usually) your tank will propose to run through mobs to a safe zone (out of agro, on the opposite side of a portal, etc.). He will go first and aggro every mobs so that you can run safely behind him. Something VERY important you must know about this : this method is quite safe unless your pet is out. Your pet may attract mobs (Although I am not really sure about the "how", I am sure about the fact) that were supposed to loose aggro after some time. This may lead to a party wipe out since this method is safe unless you have to fight the mobs you were supposed to be running away from. So, it your team leader propose it, stow your pet before running.
One or two mobs will not wipe squad unless it is utterly fail. I don't worry about stowing my pet in rushes just in case I do need to turn around and tank something because I have had wizards and clerics drag a mob with them (no bramble on them).
About pots and genies: (3) I won't give any advices about pots and genies, especially because pots and genies are mainly common to all classes. Actually, there are a few you could efficiently use according to previous points, and regarding boss' element, type, squad's members, builds, etc. Mainly, pots are a way to improve your efficiency on your role baseline, and sometimes break a few rules (eg. chi/spark pots).
TIP: If you like to solo run things, you might like getting a Zeal to pull just so you don't have to stow, summon, attack, stow, resummon your pets.
lvl 79 skills : (3)
Level 79 Myriad Rainbows (fox and human forms) are quite usefull, although they are chi-consuming and have a shorter duration than Ironwood / amplify. The main problem is that their (powerfull!) effects are random, and since they may stack the same effect as some other skills (ie magic and physical defense), they may replace some that was (or were) previously active. And since they have a short duration, and also since the timer is not reset, this could result in the lost of some precious seconds of debuff. So, in order to be the most efficient, you'll have to use them wisely so that they won't stack on each other.
But something is very precious with these skills : they have instant chanelling, so you can cast them even if you focus on spam-healing your pet. Thus, you can still be a damage amplifier even while e.g. tanking with your herc.
I won't give many more advices about these : This guide aims to help all level venos, and they are lvl 79+ skills, and not all 79+ veno have both fox form and human form myriad rainbow.
I recommend both. I also recommend Feral Concentration, though situations it's used in are rare.
Conclusion :
There are a lot of things you have to do: luring, go fox form, Amplifying, heal, human form, Ironwood, your skills, pet skills, lend hand, bamble, etc... all of this becomes a great mess when you are trying to make a macro. Forget about going afk while you're in a squad : a veno can't afford. Use a macro only for the part when you deal damage and after you've amplified and/or lent hand. Managing all this is really not easy, and you'll sometimes forget some skills. It happens. Just learn how to use your skills and your pet, and experience will stack on top of it to make you the one all squad will be looking for.
If you must go afk at a boss, like in TT when it's really boring, it's generally okay to set an attack macro for a few minutes. I only suggest this for TT. My attack macro tends to steal agro at FB bosses. QQ
(**) : although the knowlin is not suited for usual grinding and general solo PvE, it's a very good DD + support pet for fighting bosses in a squad. Since it cames with flesh realm + 2 support skills and is lvl 60 based, you should consider taming/buying one once you reached level 60+ and keeps it maxed (in Cube of Fate, room 4). Although it's expensive, its base skills (don't need to change them) will make you save some money. Though most people just can't afford buying one : then there are a lot of other good DD pets, such as scorpios, and so on. Take a look at pet guides.
b:victoryb:heart Kowlin! Glad someone agrees with me there!
PS''' : Most of you would have guessed I am no native english speaker. Do no hesitate to correct me (fairly).
I thought your English was pretty as I am a native speaker. Sad but true, you at least write it better than many of my classmates do. b:victory Good guide. I have made my points within the quote of your original post, scrapping parts that I had nothing to reply to. And I highlighted the "2" where you talked about the Kowlin because it comes with two attack skills and two debuffs. Nicely done Dys.0 -
Very nice guide ^^ , lots of truth in there for veno's used to only playing solo.
Never personally bother to run any form of macro, it's all manual all the time because it's not just you slipping now and again, there are 5 other people to take into account.
In a squad with multiple veno's, a designated puller is very good to make clear, cannot tell you how many times I've been in a squad with 3 or more hercs and had them all trying to be alpha veno which leads to a lot of unnecessary death and aggro.
Always keep an eye on the cleric. If BB drops or mobs come in, you are essentially two players and have a lot of opportunity to make sure the healer stays alive so be ready to perform random acts of crowd control kindness at all times.
Squad wipe= everyone's loss, Squad wipe & cleric lives= no one's loss0 -
DayzFade - Heavens Tear wrote: »Never personally bother to run any form of macro, it's all manual all the time because it's not just you slipping now and again, there are 5 other people to take into account.
Sometimes macros are good, you can use them to get around latency to an extent. For example when I amp, if I go fox and manually hit some skill+amp I only have time to get the two skills off before fox recycles, if I go fox and hit a macro I have, I have just enough time for two skills, amp, and then leaving fox (about .2 sec after fox recycles). Just hitting a dd macro and going AFK I don't like, but macros are good at times.0 -
Imamandamnit - Heavens Tear wrote: »There are some boss fights in this game where bramble guard SHOULD be cast on everyone,lord of percussion in tt is a good one.Physical aoe reflects.
no it dosent only mele range mele type phys attacks are reflectedGifs are hard to make work here0 -
Sevas - Heavens Tear wrote: »That is irritating. I hate having to tell the other veno to amp on a boss. I hate having to remind them when I'm on my cleric. I get completely dumbfounded when I see them amp and then use Soul Degeneration or Crush Vigor. What the F... good is that? If there are two venos in a squad they could try timing their Amps to overlap so that the boss remains constantly debuffed. I did this once in TT with another veno when I wasn't tanking a boss. Bonus: I have Demon Amp so it lasts a long time anyway.
^This.
The worst case is when your squad asks you to use RB to speed up things... and you have two venos (neither of them using Amp) and an archer ("Sharpened Tooth? Which skill is that?").
Big NO. b:chuckle0 -
good guide...some of the stuff yu put into yur guide i didnt even know about!!!!...---thanks for posting it,it helped me alot xD---b:kiss0
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Thanks very much for this guide Before I read it I was casting Bramble on everyone but not anymore.
And the guide I was using was not mentioning the essencial use of Amp so..needless to say I wasn't amping bosses either. b:surrender
I also loved the Kowlin part. I have one and so far it's working great.
Very good job~0 -
I am glad that some of you found some use about this guide.
I was also very interested about many of your comments.
Especially, I want to do a general answer about some of them.
I agree to some specific points that were not included as part of my guide. I am thinking e.g. about Sevas' comments about bramble or nova : although I think you are right about your points, I disagree with the fact of including them in this guide. Mainly, this is because you must be very carefull about this, since their powerfull effects can also lead to an unexpected deadly backdraft. Let me give an example : unless you're in rebirth or/and HA tank veno, using noxious gaz and nova can turn "poorly agroed" mobs toward your weak being (compared to the melee classes ones, indeed). So, because you need very good tanks who can hold multiple agros or/and an ability for very-fast kiling all of them , I don't think it's a good idea to point that out in a basic guide.
I also don't develop more about lvl 79 skills because they are that not "basic". Mainly, following this guide's base advices is safe and efficient, despite the fact that experienced veno could efficiently break a few of these rules.
Also, this guide was more about boss' fight than mobs fight. Although I didn't say it explicitely, I thought this was quite clear. Actually, veno's role outside of boss' fight is a little less tricky, although most of the rules still apply. Thus, your base experience in PvE should be sufficient there.0 -
Dystery - Sanctuary wrote: »Especially, I want to do a general answer about some of them.
I agree to some specific points that were not included as part of my guide. I am thinking e.g. about Sevas' comments about bramble or nova : although I think you are right about your points, I disagree with the fact of including them in this guide. Mainly, this is because you must be very carefull about this, since their powerfull effects can also lead to an unexpected deadly backdraft. Let me give an example : unless you're in rebirth or/and HA tank veno, using noxious gaz and nova can turn "poorly agroed" mobs toward your weak being (compared to the melee classes ones, indeed). So, because you need very good tanks who can hold multiple agros or/and an ability for very-fast kiling all of them , I don't think it's a good idea to point that out in a basic guide.
Part of the point of using your veno skills is to know when to hold them back and know when to use them. Especially with Sevas's comment about Demon Ironwood. When that hits it rocks...that said I'm not a demon veno I'm sage...I ALWAYS check with other other veno in squad on which they are if 89+. If theirs doesn't hit I'll follow with sage Ironwood. On the other hand if you need to using lending hand a lot...those that need it (BB clerics) love sage venos we build chi fast.
On the knowing when to use it...Para. Nova and Noxious Gas combo...BH 79/89 zhenning runs...USE IT. Two venos in squad means TT bosses constantly amp'd and in the case of Ape in 2-3, purged
Bramble guard wise...I bramble anyone in squad who wants it. BB clerics sometimes get aggro...they want I bramble.
nice piece of work [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
These many points lead to something known only by Veno players who try to do their best : it's really not that easy to do one's best, since we have many different things to do, and as many things to check, such as "what has the other veno already done " or "Don't use my pet's debuff since it's going to cancel / lower my own debuff", and so on.
Experience is the only way to take the best part of this guide, though this base guide's goal is to give base safe advices.0 -
Great guide, thanks for the work.
I'm glad people replied about brambling other party members - General Feng in TT is also a physical AOE and takes dmg from any party member who is brambled; so, there ARE times when brambling others is a good idea (TW anyone?).
I'll add a piece that has been hinted at, but missed. One very important part of being in a party is knowing and complimenting the skills of the other classes you are partying with. Amplify is great, but to simply cast it as soon as it is cooled down is a bit of a waste. Why not time it with DD's sparking or other skills?
Recently, I've begun asking BM's in my parties to count down their Heaven's Flame skill (the big whirling dragon). When we time it like that, I do skills like this.... Amplify -> Fox Myriad -> human form -> [DD's (including me) spark] -> [BM does HF skill] -> human form myriad (if the Fox one didn't give me a magic or armour break) -> Pet Bash Skill.... and usually have time for Ironwood and 1 more attack. The dmg numbers spike very high with all these complimented debuffs, and my own dmg output makes it worth keeping my sparks to myself unless the tank needs them to keep aggro (though most higher lvl barbs can manage their own chi well enough to keep aggro just fine).
In a squad with an extra cleric, I can basically spam myriad since soul transfusion and cleric heals keeps me well supplied with mana. In a squad that is wiz-heavy, I use the kowlin for its constant mdef debuff. With archers/BM's, I do tend to spam Ironwood and Amp. In RB's, I'll do Noxious->Parasitic -> noxious again -> fox form -> Fox Myriad -> human form -> Noxious; giving me 5 AoE skills in a manner of seconds.
The bottom line is that there are no 'ALWAYS do this' or 'NEVER do that'. Know your skills, know your squad's complimenting skills, and know the kind of fight you are getting into.
Oh, and one last thing... don't be afraid to let your pet die while pulling! My 100% successful pulling practices on Wurlord.... spawn Kowlin -> turn off skills -> send him to attack -> let him die. The only Wurlord that comes to chase me is the one that the Kowlin bites; and he always gets a bite off before being killed b:laugh
In short, the best venos are the ones who have experienced their skills in different situations, and know how compliment the strength of the party.0
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