Assassin.. the anti-archer?

TruffleLove - Heavens Tear · December 2009

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

why dont you wait for official game play to come out before we go around thinking things that dont make any sense. why would close ranged melee weapons use dex?

i for one think it would be smart to make one like an LA bm. it makes the most sense.

Why would dex influence the power of a bow? Strength in the real world does. The logic behind all dex is that you're more accurate on weak spots. But logically both would impact especially with the diminishing return caused by the maximum pullback of a box/crossbow/slingshot. Of course the stronger and more accurate you are the faster you would be able to shoot. And I don't think I've ever seen a game where dex/str/mag/vit affected speed.

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2009

In ******** 3 (not mmo, but hero oriented RTS)

Agility (so it's kind of like dex, whatever) increased attack speed and armor. It also increased damage if the hero happened to be agility based.

Irage - Sanctuary · December 2009

Kiyogashi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was going to make a Phychic. However, apparently they are being judged as the new "Solo Class" much like a veno because of how good they are.

Personally, I don't like to kill things so easily, I like a challenge. And apparently the Assasin is going to be rather hard to play due to the up-close phyical combat light armor, dex based character. So.. Yeah, I'm gonna try an Assassin. ^^;

One thing I know for sure, Archers are always going to be picked over Assassins for TTs, FBs, Frost, etc.

I only say this because an Assassin must be up close to a monster to hit it. A lot of the TT, Fb, FRost, etc bosses use AoE. That is where the Archer will shine, because it can stay back, hit the same amount of dmg(if not more) and NOT get damaged so the cleric can continue to heal the acting tank. ^^

Unless that is just my logic... 'Iuno. :P

With assassins already focusing on dexterity, they could use a bow and deal similar damage at range to an archer. Archers are stuck limiting their attacks to avoid agro. The archers advantage could be reduced to just the initial sharp.

Kiyogashi - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Irage - Sanctuary wrote: »

With assassins already focusing on dexterity, they could use a bow and deal similar damage at range to an archer. Archers are stuck limiting their attacks to avoid agro. The archers advantage could be reduced to just the initial sharp.

Yeah, I was thinking that. My level 94 fist BM friend, carries around a bow all the time for AoE bosses/Harpies in Frost, etc.

Problem is all an Assassins skills are close range, so the bow won't do /that/ much damage in comparison. Not too mention a Fist BM requires more DEX than an Assassin to use their weapon. Now, obviously since the Assassins ATK is based upon DEX they will have more than enough, but there inlays the HP problem. Some bosses AoE you can't avoid, without any HP(even with shards) they can almost one-hit you lol. :P

But like I said, I like the challenge and that's why I'm making an Assassin instead of Phychic. The Phychic seems WAYYY to easy to play, in my opinion with all the reflect shields and nuking abilities.

Just my two cents. b:surrender

Telarith - Sanctuary · December 2009

Kiyogashi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I suppose that's true. However, PWI can't make either of the two classes too overpowered. So first few weeks will be a testing period I bet. If they are too good, or too powerful they'll be nerfed along with every other class. :P

Take Wizards for example, they could kill 3-4 people their level before finally going down. Then they got nerfed and could probably only handle 2 at best. :P

It's mostly the thing archer's have been complaining about themselves for quite a while; their party buff sucks compared to other classes'. Now another DD is being added in, with lots of crit, who can spike. But, they also have a very nice party buff which helps in AoE healing essentially. Now archers would still have ST, except for the as stated reasons of Deicides being able to do that role, or sage venos who can match the best of archer ST.

It may not be the end of archers, but if nothing else it really should be a reason to re-look at their party buff skill to give it some parity and keep archers in the running. As is, I'd definitely like to see an assassin over an archer just for how much health can be given without needing cleric assist.

Aelfieurin - Harshlands · December 2009

Its simple why close ranged wepons would use dex, daggers bing the close ranged weapons, 1) They are small and require much fine movements and speed/ subtel movement to use. (ive used before in real life)
2) As for stuning, assassins aim for vital/pressure points. it is these points that kill or disable ones prey. so it makes sence that they should have some stun effects
However their weakness will be if they get stuned or frozen, they cant dodge then so they would get owned.
3) assassins are good 1v1 or even 2v1 but any more than that they are in trouble, their strength relies on quick high damage effective attacks, they suck in long battles. they just dont have the stamina.

Aelfieurin - Harshlands · December 2009

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

why dont you wait for official game play to come out before we go around thinking things that dont make any sense. why would close ranged melee weapons use dex?

i for one think it would be smart to make one like an LA bm. it makes the most sense.

TruffleLove - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why would dex influence the power of a bow? Strength in the real world does. The logic behind all dex is that you're more accurate on weak spots. But logically both would impact especially with the diminishing return caused by the maximum pullback of a box/crossbow/slingshot. Of course the stronger and more accurate you are the faster you would be able to shoot. And I don't think I've ever seen a game where dex/str/mag/vit affected speed.

I arch with bow and id say your right, dex applyes to fast footwork and practaly hand to hand combat, or dagger to dagger combat.
STR is best used for bows and swords, have u ever tryed to draw a powerfull bow? No weakling can do it
I think that they say the dex applyes to ranged because of hand eye cordination.

Aelfieurin - Harshlands · December 2009

Zuyue - Sanctuary wrote: »

All the CSers get there oracles redy before they nerf stealth and kidney shot
sin is the anti anything by the look of the skills... stealth behind opponent kidney shot for a auto critical on top skill damage itself. Then fade right out of combat with stealth (as stated on expansion site stealth improves with lvl to the point u can fade back out of sight while IN COMBAT) and kidney shot again. Ouch, the end of the story there, more then likely first kidney shot will tick charm next will take u below half (if first ticked) then a few close swing or maybe just 1 and a quick death. With a high + dagger u could probably be 1 shot easy.

Then the fact they have all SKILL evasion and all MELEE damage evasion skill.... if the above don't work still easy to avoid getting hit while waiting for stealth cooldown.

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

LOL GAH ME HATED KIDNEY SHOT! b:chuckle
but then again...as soon as it wears off me would MELTER THEIR FACE~!!!
BLARG~

WHAT they should do is then sympally increase the cool down by .05 seconds per lvl that the stealth skill increases, and also increase mana or someting. they should not delete skill because it is this what really makes an assassin an assassin.
Another thing they could do is allow wizards to target the ground when they cast an aoe spell so that they dont have to have the assassin selected if they hide
i mean a giant fireball ignites everything in its range, it doesnt matter if the wizard can see it.

Zelinity - Lost City · December 2009

you dont need strength to swing a dagger, you need dexterity to aim your strikes. Bows need dexterity as well cause... well you need to be able to aim it of course and its not THAT hard to pull back the bow string, I've tried. ^^ and I believe daggers are only usable by assassins (not quite sure though)

hemoglobin · December 2009

assassin is not the anti archer. i suppoe if it attacks and stuns you first it can win, but if you start at a distance, then it might be as easy as fighting a mage, priest or archer

also, sins are as squishy as archer and wear light armor, so when they go in BH against an aoe boss, the aoe will kill them ahahahahahahahaha

Alacol - Sanctuary · December 2009

hemoglobin wrote: »

assassin is not the anti archer. i suppoe if it attacks and stuns you first it can win, but if you start at a distance, then it might be as easy as fighting a mage, priest or archer

also, sins are as squishy as archer and wear light armor, so when they go in BH against an aoe boss, the aoe will kill them ahahahahahahahaha

Sins have 2 teleportation skills to put them in close range, one that stuns, and one that doesn't. Unfortunately that's exactly what archers want to avoid. We don't have many skills to help us out in close range.

Sins have a skill to prevent them from dying immediately, and restore 20% hp. That 20% won't make much of a difference, but there aren't many FB/BH Boss aoe's that would take out an archer/sin before the cleric even touched them with heal. And if they were in danger, it's likely that they would Force Stealth away for a minute, heal back, and go back to the fight.

Zelinity - Lost City · December 2009

hemoglobin wrote: »

assassin is not the anti archer. i suppoe if it attacks and stuns you first it can win, but if you start at a distance, then it might be as easy as fighting a mage, priest or archer

also, sins are as squishy as archer and wear light armor, so when they go in BH against an aoe boss, the aoe will kill them ahahahahahahahaha

If a assassin is attacked at a distance it can just teleport to them, sure they will get first shot at assassin but if its not a 1 shot then assassin will tele, stun, finish. AND it shouldnt be a 1 shot cause of the assassin revive skill thing ^^

And im sure the aoe wont kill the assassin in 1 shot, still remember the assassin has that come back to life with 20% hp skill

You will be disappointed or happy when the rising tides released, either your predictions are wrong, or right, lets just wait and see. b:shutup

dimi3 · December 2009

first of alll BMs would be way to strong if the dex --> dmg increase would work for them too.....overpowerde since they get dex and str....
next point....wouldn't make sense making an assasin if dex wouldn't be only for daggers and if bms would be able to use daggers, too....just thinking logically......if if that would be true the only point of making an assasin would be the look....and maybe the transformation which both stupid and wasting of time....so of course only assasin will be able to sue them and of course only daggers(assasins) will get theier close range dmg from dex.......

AkioHikaru - Sanctuary · December 2009

hemoglobin wrote: »

assassin is not the anti archer. i suppoe if it attacks and stuns you first it can win, but if you start at a distance, then it might be as easy as fighting a mage, priest or archer

also, sins are as squishy as archer and wear light armor, so when they go in BH against an aoe boss, the aoe will kill them ahahahahahahahaha

Yeah I thought that too until I realized they will most likely equip a bow. Being pure dex, they'll do the same ranged damage as an archer (except no skills).

Originally I was hoping that my archer could use daggers for dual weapon pvp, but Korren stated daggers are class specific. Now to experiment with this (I like dual weapon pvp on other games) I'll have to roll an assassin.

If the crit increase buff lasts after changing to bow..this will make for an especially deadly all around class.

angellicdeity · December 2009

AkioHikaru - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah I thought that too until I realized they will most likely equip a bow. Being pure dex, they'll do the same ranged damage as an archer (except no skills).

Originally I was hoping that my archer could use daggers for dual weapon pvp, but Korren stated daggers are class specific. Now to experiment with this (I like dual weapon pvp on other games) I'll have to roll an assassin.

If the crit increase buff lasts after changing to bow..this will make for an especially deadly all around class.

Not quite.

Bow Master and Winged Blessing ensures archers have complete supremecy as a ranged class compared to an Assasin.

Assasins will be missing the 10-14 extra meters an archer has.

Assasins will be missing the damage bonus of bow mastery, 75% of your weapon value.

Assasins will be missing the extra effects (demon crit increase and accuracy increase)

Assasins will be missing the evasion increase (Wings of Protection)

Assasins in no way can be used as a ranged class against an archer.

As for the teleportation business - archers have winged shell, or wings of grace. Preferring the latter due to anti-sleep, anti stun, anti freeze, and anti-seal effects with 3 seconds of invincibility.

Even if an assasin dies within the first aoe of Wingspan, winged pledge still exists to deal melee damage. Furthermore, metal skills are not damage reduced in close range combat.

Assasin is not the anti-archer, though it does have some skills that create some problems - the real problem is that assasin is yet again, one of those classes in which you need to fork out some serious money to stay alive.

A pure DEX build will leave assasins with less than 3600 hp (base disincluding armors and refines). A stunning arrow at 34 meters or aim low for that matter will kill him if it crits, or shave off enough hp to be close to death.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · December 2009

.....b:sweat
me pretty sure assassins will suck with a bow for all teh above mentioned and.....
they frigging have a teleport to target and stun for x amount of seconds skill....
no reason to use a bow.
b:chuckle
also the other non stun teleport to escape from battle me suppose....
and the speed buff they have...
b:shocked

but....me has seen two sort of weaknesses. (>.<)'
one weakness...me can't touch but mayhaps in TW or something.
b:chuckle
teh other me will test out later.
(>.<)

Alacol - Sanctuary · December 2009

angellicdeity wrote: »

Not quite.

Bow Master and Winged Blessing ensures archers have complete supremecy as a ranged class compared to an Assasin.

Assasins will be missing the 10-14 extra meters an archer has.

Assasins will be missing the damage bonus of bow mastery, 75% of your weapon value.

Assasins will be missing the extra effects (demon crit increase and accuracy increase)

I can't argue this, Sins will not be capable of going head to head with a bow against an archer.

Assasins will be missing the evasion increase (Wings of Protection)

Assassin's have a skill to increase their evasion, although the name of it I don't know.

Range self
Mana 56+7*Skill lvl
Channel 0.4second
Cast 1.6second
CoolDown 90.0second
Weapon dagger
Require Cultivation lv19

Skill Description

Increase your evation to skill dmg（10+1.5*Skill lvl）%，last 30+3*levelsecond.
金刚轮印咒 and 三世明王咒 share 90second CoolDown.

Assasins in no way can be used as a ranged class against an archer.

As for the teleportation business - archers have winged shell, or wings of grace. Preferring the latter due to anti-sleep, anti stun, anti freeze, and anti-seal effects with 3 seconds of invincibility.

During that time, Sins could quite easily go stealth and prepare for a part II of the fight, quickly clicking their MP/HP Pots, and returning to the fight.

Even if an assasin dies within the first aoe of Wingspan, winged pledge still exists to deal melee damage. Furthermore, metal skills are not damage reduced in close range combat.

Should the Assassin be brought to the point of death against an Archer, they have a skill to prevent their death, and restore 20% Hp. If they are charmed, the charm will probably tick, saving them. If not, they will, at least, be clicking on the HP Food/Pots.

Assasin is not the anti-archer, though it does have some skills that create some problems - the real problem is that assasin is yet again, one of those classes in which you need to fork out some serious money to stay alive.

A pure DEX build will leave assasins with less than 3600 hp (base disincluding armors and refines). A stunning arrow at 34 meters or aim low for that matter will kill him if it crits, or shave off enough hp to be close to death.

Again, with the skill that prevents death, if it is casted shortly before the fight, they will not die. On top of that, the chances of the archer being 34 Meters away and noticing the Sin are slim. Most players will be heavily reliant on stealth.

Range self
Mana 56+5*level
Channel 1.5second
Cast 2.6second
CoolDown （300-12*Skill lvl）second
Weapon dagger
Require Cultivation lv39
Skill Description
during 120seconds，avoid 1 deadly hit that may cause death，and recover 20% max hp.

Xarix - Harshlands · December 2009

I find that many players still do not take using genies seriously. Anyway what I am wondering is how the introduction of these two new classes will affect the genie skill tree. Will some or any of those skills become class specific to assassins and psychics and will there be new genie skills added to accommodate them.

In most mmos I have played assassins are a defensively weak class that have ridiculous killing power.

Since they look cool a lot of players rush to play them only to play them poorly and end up making the class look bad. Like most specialist classes they usually only play well in the hands of players who understand how to use them. As such I am sure there will be a learning curve involved in using assassins as well as psychics and figuring out how they fit into the scheme of all the games different parts e.g. soloing, parties, 1v1 pvp, pk, tw, etc.

For the moment I am a bit more intrigued by the psychic class.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · December 2009

Xarix - Harshlands wrote: »

I find that many players still do not take using genies seriously. Anyway what I am wondering is how the introduction of these two new classes will affect the genie skill tree. Will some or any of those skills become class specific to assassins and psychics and will there be new genie skills added to accommodate them.

In most mmos I have played assassins are a defensively weak class that have ridiculous killing power.

Since they look cool a lot of players rush to play them only to play them poorly and end up making the class look bad. Like most specialist classes they usually only play well in the hands of players who understand how to use them. As such I am sure there will be a learning curve involved in using assassins as well as psychics and figuring out how they fit into the scheme of all the games different parts e.g. soloing, parties, 1v1 pvp, pk, tw, etc.

For the moment I am a bit more intrigued by the psychic class.

.......................me think you haven't met that many players have you? b:chuckle
......and of course there will be assassin/psychic specific skills.....there be frigging empty blocks obviously some will be set for class specific genie skills....
like how every class has....
the real question be: are these skills actually any good? b:puzzled

Telarith - Sanctuary · December 2009

Alot of the posters seem to have not even read the skills of the assassin.

Assassin tp + stun skill has a range of 35 m at lvl 10. That is greater than wizard or cleric, so it won't be the same as fighting them. It is an instant skill as well. Also, they will likely be stealthed. While if a sin is stupid enough to stand near someone else targetable, they can be hit by AoE. Since it won't 1 shot them, the archer would be stuck on the wrong target, getting beat the heck up by a character in melee range, who will only take damage 60% of the time or less (evasion + skill). They would need to re-target, and leave enough time to not be victim of target lag to re-target the sin. This is while being slept, stunned, and frozen by a character that can easily have an ATK lvl of 50 while attacking with more crit that an archer.

In short, unless archers actually do that reading thing, and know what they are talking about, I see a whole lot of lazy gankers being destroyed over and over for a few weeks. Then some of the actual good archers will devise strategies against it, while all the crappy ones will post on and on about how OP the assassin is. At least until they can once again have someone else to once more copy, anyways.

EDIT: Will also be interesting with a character that can teleport to healer backline reliably to take out a couple of cat healers with a total range of 65 m basically. Wonder how that will effect TW strats.

angellicdeity · December 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Since it won't 1 shot them, the archer would be stuck on the wrong target, getting beat the heck up by a character in melee range, who will only take damage 60% of the time or less (evasion + skill).

Demon Lightning strike never misses

Archers have enough accuracy to hit anyways. Dont kid yourself into believe evasion saves you.

You literally need blessing of the condor to avoid archers and barbs reliably - thats 1000% or 10x your current evasion. Even then they can still hit.

Doesn't against Magics.

Barbs still hit quite reliably.

And yes, archers have the same level of accuracy. Demons have the fact that one skill never misses.

And it might suprise you to know that if they dont fix anything before the 16th - you can use the party window to tell whether you have a stealthed assasin in range.

Telarith - Sanctuary · December 2009

angellicdeity wrote: »

Demon Lightning strike never misses

Archers have enough accuracy to hit anyways. Dont kid yourself into believe evasion saves you.

You literally need blessing of the condor to avoid archers and barbs reliably.

Doesn't against Magics.

Barbs still hit quite reliably.

And yes, archers have the same level of accuracy. Demons have the fact that one skill never misses.

It also means it can only be used when the target is unstealthed, which if it is not a surprise gank will be when they are already on the archer stunning/sleeping while dishing out damage.

Will be interesting to see if the skill that evades damage will count as normal evasion, or just be a mistranslation and use a synonym. There used to be two adds that both used berserk in their title, before it was changed to reduce confusion.

One thing that might be interesting, is it says it increases evasion against skills, so normal attacks should be unaffected.

Also, depends how much evasion/accuracy per dex point assassins will get. Even with a 20% evasion only, they can still avoid skills that don't have 100% accuracy to hit. The 80% to hit is reduced to 60% when their 25% evasion skill is used. They can pretty much watch for a miss on any of the first two skills, before deciding to use a metal immune or damage immune skill. And if their invis skill will negate pre-existing targeting, they have that to fall back on, in addition to auto-heal instead of death skill.

It's mostly just that few actual posts consider the impact, or even look at how gameplay could change, in this post. So why are they even posting? Evasion won't save them. On its own, not likely. But considering it will now stack with their skill, it becomes a much higher chance to not be hit. Add that with the not dieing once, and other abilities, just having 1 skill miss is pretty good. Assassins also have 100% hit skills as well, and can gain 350 chi in 3 secs with their skills, giving them a 3 sec invuln if they need it. Much like archers, they will have the same chance to hit likely, and can spark reliably while still able to attack. They will need to tp to get there, but since it is instant they can demon spark out of range, tp in, and unleash high damage comboes.

These are the things archers will need to think about to remain comeptitive. If you talk to or read the posts of end game archers, many of their tactics will not work the same against the assassin as it does against all the others. Spewing the same rhetoric that has been going for months will just see many posts of crying from people who can't come up with their own ideas. And they will continue to complain until someone writes a post on how to defeat assassins. Hopefully they will keep the information to themself for a few months; long enough for many of the bad people to quit.

_MonoxidE_ - Sanctuary · December 2009

i dont see how anyone can judge assasins vs. anything based on skills that assassins have. We dont even know what the assassins base stats are. We dont know how much is added per attribute point or anything. All we can tell are a few skill descriptions lol. Whats to say that the daggers arent extremely weak to start with and need the so-called awesome skills to compensate for it. I will laugh if assassins turn out to be alot more gimp than what people think they will be. We'll just have to wait and see.

Some things about assassins just seem to good to be true though.
Its already been stated that sins are not the solo class that some expect them to be so who knows.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · December 2009

...........
okie if you be like angellicdeity me suggest you stop any future posts in this thread until you figure out what the heck you be talking about.....
b:surrender

now that assassin 60 seconds chance to resist 1/4 of all attacks (me say resist as it can even "evade" skills....which isn't evasion but works more like resist)

also....yes......their teleport stun has greater range then archers & wizards.....
yes their speed buff makes them immune to stun and movement debuffs for the duration of the run.
yes they have TWO teleports. One to get in and stun their target. The other for whatever the assassin wants to do....
No they can't really be 1 shot as they have a 3 minute "revive" skill which brings them back with 20% life. (think um....zombie when you shoot a zombie anywhere but the head lol.)

o also....yes their teleport...actually teleports them unlike wizard's distance shrink.

Walpurgis - Harshlands · December 2009

assassins should depend on dex to high evasion rate, and high critical dmg because they are no warriors, their regular hits are usually weak but fast, but they have high critical rate to succesfuly do like 7 crits out of 10 hits. (its just my opinion based on experience using assassins in some other MMORPGs)

dannykiel · April 2010

I think you are all nuts and assassins are the shytb:chuckle

Cyrl - Raging Tide · April 2010

Necro.....

Assassin.. the anti-archer?

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