The Last Hit Factor
Axxxel - Sanctuary
Posts: 9 Arc User
Hey have you eve noticed that after you pwn that pyrogoth or stomp that taruoc or any other monster that they always seem to get a last hit on you before they die? it has always confused me so much because they can even hit you before they die while you have them stunned! it has just been eating at me for awhile so i thought id ask some ppl here in forums who really know their pwi smarts and could give me a answer about the last hit. even the monsters that do magic attacks and magic attacks only for some reason do the physical last hit after their hp is gone. did pwi put this into the game on purpose or is it something they havnt noticed yet to take out? im so confused im gonna hide under my desk lol but anyways it would be nice if a player, gm gm player mutant or anything in between could tell me more about this. thank you ^^
Post edited by Axxxel - Sanctuary on
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Axxxel - Sanctuary wrote: »Hey have you eve noticed that after you pwn that pyrogoth or stomp that taruoc or any other monster that they always seem to get a last hit on you before they die? it has always confused me so much because they can even hit you before they die while you have them stunned! it has just been eating at me for awhile so i thought id ask some ppl here in forums who really know their pwi smarts and could give me a answer about the last hit. even the monsters that do magic attacks and magic attacks only for some reason do the physical last hit after their hp is gone. did pwi put this into the game on purpose or is it something they havnt noticed yet to take out? im so confused im gonna hide under my desk lol but anyways it would be nice if a player, gm gm player mutant or anything in between could tell me more about this. thank you ^^
Lag, and everyone knows that your dieing act should be one of ultimate defiance. So smacking you one last time as if to say "here you go, you may have killed me but i'mma still smack yer ****!" is perfectly normal.
~Saitada0 -
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Lag, and everyone knows that your dieing act should be one of ultimate defiance. So smacking you one last time as if to say "here you go, you may have killed me but i'mma still smack yer ****!" is perfectly normal.
~Saitada
Not really lag when the target has just been stunned.0 -
Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »Lag, and everyone knows that your dieing act should be one of ultimate defiance. So smacking you one last time as if to say "here you go, you may have killed me but i'mma still smack yer ****!" is perfectly normal.
~Saitada
I always used to say lag too, but the truth is that every archer mob I have ever fought has done this. And there are other specific mobs that I have this problem with, for example the felbone shanks around angler's village. Everything else in that area it doesn't happen with ever. Perhaps I am simply in a perpetual state of lag, or maybe there's more to it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Karst - Dreamweaver wrote: »Not really lag when the target has just been stunned.
You think Lag cares about stun? Do you think that is air your character is breathing? b:surprised
~Saitada0 -
whoa alot of good repies thanks a bunch guys. i can come out of hiding now lol0
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Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »You think Lag cares about stun? Do you think that is air your character is breathing? b:surprised
~Saitada
b:avoid
it does~~~ b:shocked
(>.<)
don't make the air and lag angry now.
b:shocked
best way me found around it is....get another to get hit instead.
like a barb or a bm.
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ya know i think ive met you and saitada on server before lol believe it or not i think u helped me on my fb a long long time ago. it was either 19 or 39. wow small world. i think i met saitada while catshoping although we didnt talk ut yeah lol i remember too many things to be a normal personXDHisuna - Sanctuary wrote: »I always used to say lag too, but the truth is that every archer mob I have ever fought has done this. And there are other specific mobs that I have this problem with, for example the felbone shanks around angler's village. Everything else in that area it doesn't happen with ever. Perhaps I am simply in a perpetual state of lag, or maybe there's more to it.0 -
Axxxel - Sanctuary wrote: »Hey have you eve noticed that after you pwn that pyrogoth or stomp that taruoc or any other monster that they always seem to get a last hit on you before they die? it has always confused me so much because they can even hit you before they die while you have them stunned! it has just been eating at me for awhile so i thought id ask some ppl here in forums who really know their pwi smarts and could give me a answer about the last hit. even the monsters that do magic attacks and magic attacks only for some reason do the physical last hit after their hp is gone. did pwi put this into the game on purpose or is it something they havnt noticed yet to take out? im so confused im gonna hide under my desk lol but anyways it would be nice if a player, gm gm player mutant or anything in between could tell me more about this. thank you ^^
For myself only, I noticed this early on as an archer. And I began to watch more closely. I have been hit by stunned mobs many times. What I tend to see is that the mob is casting when or before they get stunned and that cast finishes, hitting me. It has happened to me a lot in pvp and duels the same I have seen with mobs. I did finally resolve this problem for myself. which is deal more damage and kill it before it has a chance to begin casting or act faster with stuns, again before the cast ever even starts. Seems to work. 0.0
Regards0 -
Better yet.
When getting ganked by two Highbies and the first one-shots you and after it shows you dead the other still deals 2300 damage.
Thats funny to see. b:victorytatuaje: grinding mobs and zhenning ???
frankieraye:All right, I admit it, it's a bit retro. lol.0 -
Tatuaje - Lost City wrote: »Better yet.
When getting ganked by two Highbies and the first one-shots you and after it shows you dead the other still deals 2300 damage.
Thats funny to see. b:victory
Exactly. :<. That can relate to casting. A lot of times archers get one extra shot in even on dead mobs. Because they casted within the appropriate time frame. I believe it works the same with mobs and their cast as well.
Regards0 -
Axxxel - Sanctuary wrote: »ya know i think ive met you and saitada on server before lol believe it or not i think u helped me on my fb a long long time ago. it was either 19 or 39. wow small world. i think i met saitada while catshoping although we didnt talk ut yeah lol i remember too many things to be a normal personXD
Sorry, I can't say I remember you. I run a lot of things for people. b:surrender Was it a really long time ago? I've been playing since Oct 15, 08. My level is just abyssmally low for the time I've played.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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mine's absurdly high for the time I've been playing lolHisuna - Sanctuary wrote: »Sorry, I can't say I remember you. I run a lot of things for people. b:surrender Was it a really long time ago? I've been playing since Oct 15, 08. My level is just abyssmally low for the time I've played.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Hisuna - Sanctuary wrote: »I've been playing since Oct 15, 08. My level is just abyssmally low for the time I've played.
b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]b:laugh
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"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics."0 -
It's not lag. I've killed a mob and had it kill me simultaneously with our last hits.
From a programming standpoint, making it work the way it logically should work (if the mob dies, its last attack is canceled) creates a race condition. So it's just easier to ignore it and allow all final attacks from a killed player/mob to complete. The worst possible outcome is what happened to me - simultaneous deaths. Trying to be cute and program it right so it works logically could result in difficult-to-trace bugs where you're supposed to attack but you don't.0 -
At first I found this tactic exceedingly annoying, until I realized that varying my attack patterns keeps the game on its toes - instead of it standing on mine. If you grind a lot, after awhile you'll settle into repeating the same method of attack. I've noticed the game adds a little extra bit of life to some mobs so you have to shoot them again, when before that last hit did them in. Lag has nothing to do with it (I never have lag btw). I've seen the mob's HP bar remain unmoved after hitting it, and even at times to increase. My method of dealing with this when it shows up is to change the way I attack the mob. Usually, that does the trick.0
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You observe the mob delivering a hit after you have delivered a killing blow, an apparent violation of causality. An observer in the proper reference frame of the server however observes the mob delivering a shot before the killing blow.
The two observers disagreement on the simultaneity of these events is explained by the distortion generated by the time propagation offset between the two reference frames.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Nicely put! That's exactly how the Theory of Relativity works. b:chuckle0
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »You observe the mob delivering a hit after you have delivered a killing blow, an apparent violation of causality. An observer in the proper reference frame of the server however observes the mob delivering a shot before the killing blow.
The two observers disagreement on the simultaneity of these events is explained by the distortion generated by the time propagation offset between the two reference frames.
Under normal networking and video conditions the delay between the two should always fall within a few hundred milliseconds which can questionably be noticed during game play not seconds, unless there is severe network lag or video lag.
Regards.0 -
Xeian - Dreamweaver wrote: »
I would like to add that the quality of these reports play a critical factor when it comes to getting an "undocumented feature" resolved. If people report " I always get hit when I kill mobs." The development team can't understand what the person is communicating and they can't reproduce that and they can't fix it. It can be because of lag or a variety of other reasons. A bug scrubber will read that report and bucket it into a miscellaneous category because it cannot be understood, proven or reproduced.
So if possible, it's always better to capture high quality video footage, upload it to Youtube and insert the link into your bug report so bug scrubbers and potentially developers can view it and determine if there is a problem in the AI scripting behavior, video lag, network lag or some other thing. the level of detail is very important, People need to describe exactly what is happening and when and whether or not it can be reproduced and if any changes were made o ntheir computer or to the game. The individuals that receive and interpret bug reports can't submit anything to the development team if they can't accurately understand what is broken or not working properly. Many times the software is behaving as designed. Or "WAD" working as designed. It is the end user who is confused on how it works or how it is supposed to work in which case the bug report is bucked into a "working as designed" category and no further action is taken because nothing is broken or malfunctioning.
Regards.0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »It's not lag. I've killed a mob and had it kill me simultaneously with our last hits.
From a programming standpoint, making it work the way it logically should work (if the mob dies, its last attack is canceled) creates a race condition. So it's just easier to ignore it and allow all final attacks from a killed player/mob to complete. The worst possible outcome is what happened to me - simultaneous deaths. Trying to be cute and program it right so it works logically could result in difficult-to-trace bugs where you're supposed to attack but you don't.
I suffer many times when theoreticaly dead mob <no HP> was still able to execute last shot before he fail and lag was not a factor because i have almost <West Archo is rather difficult to handle even for my quite strong comp> no lag and because of that last hit factor i suffer twice double hit KO <me and mob> b:surrender...
But on the other hand that experience taught me NOT to charge against mob whit only half HP present b:chuckle
In other words unless you can 1 hit KO mob i would set up propability of last hit from mob side at rather high level, and because of this i would suggest to keep one eye on HP bar and second eye on mob HP bar b:thanks0 -
I love it in HALO where the enemy fires off a few rounds when they are killed. Yuo can be caught in the direction and hit a few times if unlucky.
Perhaps when they are "falling to death" you just happen to be in range of the fist heading towards the ground.
Or maybe when the mob is throwing stones at you he dies falling forwards and you happen to get hit as he drops it.
b:chuckletatuaje: grinding mobs and zhenning ???
frankieraye:All right, I admit it, it's a bit retro. lol.0 -
Foltern - Sanctuary wrote: »Under normal networking and video conditions the delay between the two should always fall within a few hundred milliseconds which can questionably be noticed during game play not seconds, unless there is severe network lag or video lag.
Regards.
Hundreds of milliseconds is plenty of time to have an effect.
Suppose a mob has an attack interval of 3s and you have a ping of 200ms. The window then between when you perceive an attack until the server propagates the effect is 6% of the enemy attack interval.
If you look at only the killing blow (and assuming a uniform distribution in enemy attack offsets) this means about 1 in 15 mobs will attack you in this window between when you think the mob is dead and the server processes that death.
1 in 15 might not sound like much but this violation is more memorable than when things happen as expected and so you perceive it as happening more often than it actually does.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Tatuaje - Lost City wrote: »I love it in HALO where the enemy fires off a few rounds when they are killed. Yuo can be caught in the direction and hit a few times if unlucky.
Perhaps when they are "falling to death" you just happen to be in range of the fist heading towards the ground.
Or maybe when the mob is throwing stones at you he dies falling forwards and you happen to get hit as he drops it.
b:chuckle
Or maybe it's because, deep down, we get hurt when we kill a living being.b:cuteb:cry[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]b:laugh
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"Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics."0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Hundreds of milliseconds is plenty of time to have an effect.
Suppose a mob has an attack interval of 3s and you have a ping of 200ms. The window then between when you perceive an attack until the server propagates the effect is 6% of the enemy attack interval.
If you look at only the killing blow (and assuming a uniform distribution in enemy attack offsets) this means about 1 in 15 mobs will attack you in this window between when you think the mob is dead and the server processes that death.
1 in 15 might not sound like much but this violation is more memorable than when things happen as expected and so you perceive it as happening more often than it actually does.
This information is processed server side first then sent to the client. In which case the user would not lose HP, but see the hit and the monster dead. What the user believes they are seeing doesn't change what is happening server side. And your right hundreds of milliseconds is a lot. I was a bit generous.~
I personally believe it is a matter of mob casting, and likely not lag caused by any networking circumstance or video delay. I can see several people agree in their own experience is is not lag of any kind. Each case can be different. I know in my own experiences, it is neither. But I don't want to make a blanket statement that insinuates it is mob casting for all problems and not network or video problems in some cases.
Regards0 -
Hisuna - Sanctuary wrote: »Sorry, I can't say I remember you. I run a lot of things for people. b:surrender Was it a really long time ago? I've been playing since Oct 15, 08. My level is just abyssmally low for the time I've played.
ive been playing since january 2009 and yes it was a long time ago lol i just have a crazy long term memory span XDb:thanks0 -
Foltern - Sanctuary wrote: »This information is processed server side first then sent to the client. In which case the user would not lose HP, but see the hit and the monster dead. What the user believes they are seeing doesn't change what is happening server side. And your right hundreds of milliseconds is a lot. I was a bit generous.~
I personally believe it is a matter of mob casting, and likely not lag caused by any networking circumstance or video delay. I can see several people agree in their own experience is is not lag of any kind. Each case can be different. I know in my own experiences, it is neither. But I don't want to make a blanket statement that insinuates it is mob casting for all problems and not network or video problems in some cases.
Regards
Ahh that is another good point. There is an animation delay when casting.
When a spell is used you have
channeling -> casting
The damage is delivered instantaneously at the end of channeling and this is when the HP bar actually goes down.
However there is a period when the spell is animated as being in transit or the arrow is in flight. At this point the damage has already been delivered, the HP bar has already decreased, but the number has not yet been shown on your client as you are still busy watching that spell home in on its target.
When the attack finally connects with the target the number is shown even though the actual damage was delivered instantaneously earlier. It then appears that damage is being done later than when it is actually done (such as after an enemy has died rather than before).
This happens more often than mutual death which is only explained by lag.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Ahh that is another good point. There is an animation delay when casting.
When a spell is used you have
channeling -> casting
The damage is delivered instantaneously at the end of channeling and this is when the HP bar actually goes down.
However there is a period when the spell is animated as being in transit or the arrow is in flight. At this point the damage has already been delivered, the HP bar has already decreased, but the number has not yet been shown on your client as you are still busy watching that spell home in on its target.
When the attack finally connects with the target the number is shown even though the actual damage was delivered instantaneously earlier. It then appears that damage is being done later than when it is actually done (such as after an enemy has died rather than before).
This happens more often than mutual death which is only explained by lag.
The delays and such are very small, and in my opinion, not likely part of the context I believe we are referencing these occurrences. I believe these are not quite the same. But yes exactly it can be true. ^__^
Regards.0 -
Foltern - Sanctuary wrote: »The delays and such are very small, and in my opinion, not likely part of the context I believe we are referencing these occurrences. I believe these are not quite the same. But yes exactly it can be true. ^__^
Regards.
Nah animation delay is pretty significant. Have you ever shot at a mob, watch it stand still until the attack finally connects at which point it dies? The server decided it was dead at the start of the attack and that whole time it was left standing was in deference to the arrow still being in the air.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »Nah animation delay is pretty significant. Have you ever shot at a mob, watch it stand still until the attack finally connects at which point it dies? The server decided it was dead at the start of the attack and that whole time it was left standing was in deference to the arrow still being in the air.
Yes. but there is a difference between the types of "Temporal displacement".
Skill animation is not the same as casting, which is not necessarily the same as networking lag or video display lag on the client nor the server side.
In my opinion what you described is how the casting of skills inflicts damage to compensate for the other forms of temporal displacement. Which is why my suggestion was to deal more damage and kill faster or stun sooner before the mob has a chance to begin a skill cast so that you do not take hits. ^o^
Simple, Yet rocket science. lol
Regards.0
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