Bad Archers- who aggro mobs

Kouankyuuka - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Yesterday, I had a run on BH 29.

In my original team, we have 2 venos, 1 BM and 2 archers (I'm also archer) and a cleric. Not the best of the squad selection, but still doable.

So I asked the BM to be the main tanker, while another Veno with Land pet (magmite) to off tank, another veno to heal the magmite if necessary, Archers to dps only on tank targets.

Sounds workable?

We started and I noticed the archer is just shooting at mobs that aren't tanked by BM or pets. So I sounded out for archer to watch DPS.

When we are on the second bunch of mobs, down the corridor leading to qingzi's room (before the corner), the BM was tanking the tanking the Doting Mob while Veno magmite is on the 'hellfire' mob on the left.

I saw the other archer is again, attacking another mob on his own and he was running because he couldn't kill it. Cleric desperately healed the Archer and got killed.

By now, I am fully aware that this Archer is not listening and told him off. The cleric who died, left the squad out of disappointment. And guess what the Archer told me? "F off" was what he said.

I mean, wtf and this is not some solo grinding man, it's supposed to be team work.

And the Barb who tanked for us later on met the same archer on another BH 29 squad. And guess what?

The archer got another cleric killed the same way...

I would like to stress that in instances, teamwork is important.

We are DPS class and we assist the tank(s) to kill the mobs and it is important that we do not overtake the tank's aggro and wipe the team.

Please feel free to disagree or agree.b:thanks

I_missU - Dreamweaver · November 2009

yeah we should assist attack to tanker, also when I think I crit too much I start to stop attacking and use mold fist I use or just wait for a while and then start attacking again. Sometimes I use 3 star low level bow too incase the tank isnt a Barb (like BM or veno with herc).

PixelArrow - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Wow I'm sorry that the BH ended up so lame. Its never fun when a member of a party doesn't follow a simple set of rules multiple times and gets the cleric killed.

Last night I was fortunate that during the level 49 cultivation quest I had read some good threads about how not to take agro from our barb before hand. Using the simple method of letting our barb get agro and then to auto dps and only use my DoT skills right at the beginning and only hit hard right at the end or in spurts depending on the level of hate. The wiz did the same and were able to easily finish the quest with no wipes.

This just goes to show for a squad each of us has a role and we need to stick to it for the most part.

stefyyyy · November 2009

it kind of was cleric fault to die...whenever i play cleric beside my fixed party.....if archer agro i don't heal until mob is hit.. i am not mean but i rather see him dead instead of me...

PixelArrow - Heavens Tear · November 2009

yeah I know what you mean stefyyy when I was helping kill viriddis one of the BMs didn't listen to the cleric to be careful and got killed 3 times. He was lucky to get raised that many times while the rest of us killed the boss. After that the cleric said if you die again you stay dead lol.

Even then whether in my case the BM or as in the OP the archer not doing as told from the beginning doesn't help the squad in the long run especially in an instance like for a BH.

SashaSlick - Sanctuary · November 2009

well, i agree. Been to this kind of situation before.

I learn... if the squad didnt turn out good even until halfway to boss, LEAVE squad. Get another asap. Unless ofcoz that person finally starts listening.

Kouankyuuka - Heavens Tear · November 2009

SashaSlick - Sanctuary wrote: »

well, i agree. Been to this kind of situation before.

I learn... if the squad didnt turn out good even until halfway to boss, LEAVE squad. Get another asap. Unless ofcoz that person finally starts listening.

b:chuckle I wish I have the resolve to leave. But I cannot leave those innocent guys behind.

I just hope this message reaches everyone especially DD classesb:chuckle

Sorry for the rant guys. b:surrender

SashaSlick - Sanctuary · November 2009

well... u can also pm every1 else to leave and resquad 'without' that irritating player in it. b:pleased

Absoluth - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Next time, just tell your squad "This archer is an idiot. Clerics, NEVER heal him as he tries to get you killed for it. Just let him die when he pulls anything and we move on. Ty" and enjoy reading his rage. Nobody has any obligation in keeping someone that doesnt listen alive. He wants to die, let him be.

SneakyStalk - Harshlands · November 2009

Absoluth - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Next time, just tell your squad "This archer is an idiot. Clerics, NEVER heal him as he tries to get you killed for it. Just let him die when he pulls anything and we move on. Ty" and enjoy reading his rage. Nobody has any obligation in keeping someone that doesnt listen alive. He wants to die, let him be.

+1 this.
Some archers are definitely idiots. No matter level. I have someone in my faction with a TT60 +4 and he's lvl 68. The idiot cant watch his aggro after all this time. Every1 has to tell him over and over watch your aggro. Really pisses me off. I dont squad with him anymore.

Meriola - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Kouankyuuka - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yesterday, I had a run on BH 29.

In my original team, we have 2 venos, 1 BM and 2 archers (I'm also archer) and a cleric. Not the best of the squad selection, but still doable.

So I asked the BM to be the main tanker, while another Veno with Land pet (magmite) to off tank, another veno to heal the magmite if necessary, Archers to dps only on tank targets.

Sounds workable?

We started and I noticed the archer is just shooting at mobs that aren't tanked by BM or pets. So I sounded out for archer to watch DPS.

When we are on the second bunch of mobs, down the corridor leading to qingzi's room (before the corner), the BM was tanking the tanking the Doting Mob while Veno magmite is on the 'hellfire' mob on the left.

I saw the other archer is again, attacking another mob on his own and he was running because he couldn't kill it. Cleric desperately healed the Archer and got killed.

Frankly, I'd fault the tank(s) here, for not getting aggro on both flames. Standard procedure should be to lure and kill the ghoul, then for the tank(s) to attack both flames at once, so they can be healed without the cleric (or veno, for pet tanks) getting healing aggro. On my BM, I use drakes sweep to hit both at once; on my veno, I have my pet bash one, then immediately turn and attack the other.

And if I >know< the tank hasn't hit everything attacking him, I'll stand around and let him die, then rez him with the comment "If you want heals, hit everything." (I've died and had to town enough times when I just >thought< they'd hit everything.)

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · November 2009

I pull aggro all the time b:chuckle
Really since archer is a DD class our job is to make things die quickly and I take that job seriously.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Meriola - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Frankly, I'd fault the tank(s) here, for not getting aggro on both flames. Standard procedure should be to lure and kill the ghoul, then for the tank(s) to attack both flames at once, so they can be healed without the cleric (or veno, for pet tanks) getting healing aggro. On my BM, I use drakes sweep to hit both at once; on my veno, I have my pet bash one, then immediately turn and attack the other.

And if I >know< the tank hasn't hit everything attacking him, I'll stand around and let him die, then rez him with the comment "If you want heals, hit everything." (I've died and had to town enough times when I just >thought< they'd hit everything.)

lol... i am glad i'll never need you as my cleric.

Illyana - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I pull aggro all the time b:chuckle
Really since archer is a DD class our job is to make things die quickly and I take that job seriously.

+1 this; if an archer isn't DDing, he is taking up a valuable squad position.

However, asshatery with regards to pulling aggro from mobs you cannot tank and attacking randoms the tank is not on should rightfully get you killed. There are many ways to control your aggro, and if you aren't controlling your aggro you're either an idiot or have a deathwish.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · November 2009

lol... i am glad i'll never need you as my cleric.

Why? You'd prefer a squad wipe, because the cleric got aggro from healing and died, and you now have to lie around waiting for the cleric to come back from town?

Understand this - if the cleric in the original post died from healing the archer, either:
1) The archer was the only party member that had hit that flame, and the cleric wasn't able to keep him alive (so aggro transfered to cleric on death) or
2) The archer was hitting flame being tanked by the magmite, and the other flame (not having been hit by anything) alerted to him, and the aggro transfered to the cleric on healing him, or
3) The flame not being tanked by the magmite had been hit once early on, and the cleric had done enough healing for healing aggro to overcome the aggro from the initial hit.

I repeat, I fault the tanks in this case, not the DD (or the tanks more than the DD, in case 1.) If the tanks are doing their jobs (which is to take aggro on everything, and keep it as best as possible), then even if the DD (archer or wizard or whatever) pulls aggro off the tank, the cleric does >not< die, only (at most) the DD, because aggro goes back to the tank on the DD's death.

(Oops, posted this on my veno instead of my cleric - Meriola is me.)

HadronFury - Sanctuary · November 2009

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why? You'd prefer a squad wipe, because the cleric got aggro from healing and died, and you now have to lie around waiting for the cleric to come back from town?

Understand this - if the cleric in the original post died from healing the archer, either:
1) The archer was the only party member that had hit that flame, and the cleric wasn't able to keep him alive (so aggro transfered to cleric on death) or
2) The archer was hitting flame being tanked by the magmite, and the other flame (not having been hit by anything) alerted to him, and the aggro transfered to the cleric on healing him, or
3) The flame not being tanked by the magmite had been hit once early on, and the cleric had done enough healing for healing aggro to overcome the aggro from the initial hit.

I repeat, I fault the tanks in this case, not the DD (or the tanks more than the DD, in case 1.) If the tanks are doing their jobs (which is to take aggro on everything, and keep it as best as possible), then even if the DD (archer or wizard or whatever) pulls aggro off the tank, the cleric does >not< die, only (at most) the DD, because aggro goes back to the tank on the DD's death.

(Oops, posted this on my veno instead of my cleric - Meriola is me.)

Well, maybe, but everything you say assumes everyone in the squad is doing their jobs. The OP is dealing with a fail archer that a) targeted mobs that were not being aggro'd by the tank, and b) failed to follow instructions when reminded not to do a.

I'm in a squad to DD. That's my job. But I have to do it in a way that doesn't make it difficult (or insane) for the rest of the team. An archer shooting random mobs then dying can't be laid on the tank. Assist attack FTW!

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why? You'd prefer a squad wipe, because the cleric got aggro from healing and died, and you now have to lie around waiting for the cleric to come back from town?

Understand this - if the cleric in the original post died from healing the archer, either:
1) The archer was the only party member that had hit that flame, and the cleric wasn't able to keep him alive (so aggro transfered to cleric on death) or
2) The archer was hitting flame being tanked by the magmite, and the other flame (not having been hit by anything) alerted to him, and the aggro transfered to the cleric on healing him, or
3) The flame not being tanked by the magmite had been hit once early on, and the cleric had done enough healing for healing aggro to overcome the aggro from the initial hit.

I repeat, I fault the tanks in this case, not the DD (or the tanks more than the DD, in case 1.) If the tanks are doing their jobs (which is to take aggro on everything, and keep it as best as possible), then even if the DD (archer or wizard or whatever) pulls aggro off the tank, the cleric does >not< die, only (at most) the DD, because aggro goes back to the tank on the DD's death.

(Oops, posted this on my veno instead of my cleric - Meriola is me.)

Well... here is the thing... i am lucky enough to run with a squad that know what they are doing.

1. how the f do you even take aggro from the arch healing? even if the arch just hit it once, you'll need to heal 5-10 times with him sitting on his **** not doing a thing to take aggro. so either you atked or the arch just flat out sucks.
2. well... this makes more sense then 1. but i tot from reading it, the bm was suppose to be tanking the other 1... what happen to him?
3. same as 2... wtf happen to the bm? i can only assume he just hit the other mob once and left it alone... so its also his fault for not going back and hitting it AGAIN.

there is really absolute no reason the tank should get the first hit on everything before heals. even in multiple mob sitution... even if the only cleric grabs aggro from the non-engaged mob. there is FOUR more members... wtf are they doing?

edit: ok... i think i understand the sitution after reading the post again. there is 3 mobs total, 2 hellfire and 1 fugly mob. the veno engage the fugly mob... the bm engage 1st hellfire... and the archer engage the 2nd hellfire. cleric died from healing the archer. now the question... how the f can the cleric get aggro. its prob not the fugly mob cause the veno should still be on it. so the problem lies in how the cleric take aggro from the arch or bm by just healing? the conclusion... the arch or bm f-ing sucks. and a follow up question would be... if its a full squad... wtf is the other 2 squad member doing?

PixelArrow - Heavens Tear · November 2009

I have to agree HadronFury, a rouge archer is setting itself up to fail as well as **** off the entire squad. Only makes it worse when the said archer continues to do it in other squads as the OP suggested happened.

SerraYoshara - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Next time pm the cleric and tell him not to heal the archer (due to him not listening). If the archer cant handle a mob solo, he better be assisting the tank.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Yes, assist attack for the win, even tanks should know about and use it (when venos are pulling, or when the sometimes tank is DDing - was in a squad with a barb not too long ago, I think in TT though it might have been a BH, and he said "I'm a tank - I've never used assist attack.")

A DD pulling aggro on a lantern in '29, getting the cleric killed in the explosion? I fault the archer. Archer runs into towerling room, alerting half the mobs in there and wiping the squad? I fault the archer. In the specific incident in the OP, which as far as I can tell is proceeding down the corridor towards Qingzi's room? Unless the archer started shooting the flames before the magmite was sent in, I fault the veno - she (and the archer) should have helped the BM kill the ghoul before sending the magmite after the flames, and having sent the magmite in, she should have made sure it hit both flames, for her own safety as well as the rest of the squad's - the other flame will alert to her if she heals the mag, and is likely to (haven't tested this) if she uses scarabs against the flame the mag is hitting.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1. how the f do you even take aggro from the arch healing? even if the arch just hit it once, you'll need to heal 5-10 times with him sitting on his **** not doing a thing to take aggro. so either you atked or the arch just flat out sucks.

1) Archer attacks un-aggroed mob and gets aggro.
2) Cleric notices archer's HP dropping fast and starts healing - too late.
3) Archer dies - cleric has aggro.

2. well... this makes more sense then 1. but i tot from reading it, the bm was suppose to be tanking the other 1... what happen to him?

No, it was the veno's magmite on the flame on the left - reread the OP again. The BM was on the ghoul.

3. same as 2... wtf happen to the bm? i can only assume he just hit the other mob once and left it alone... so its also his fault for not going back and hitting it AGAIN.

So - like me - you're faulting the tank, just the wrong one. The BM was fighting the ghoul.

there is really absolute no reason the tank should get the first hit on everything before heals. even in multiple mob sitution... even if the only cleric grabs aggro from the non-engaged mob. there is FOUR more members... wtf are they doing?

Multiple mobs, close together, that can't be isolated (immobile flames like in '29, kugulus like in '69)? Damn straight, the tank should hit them all before expecting heals. Charging into a mobile group? You had best hit them all, or any not hit are heading straight for the (most likely squishy against phys mobs) cleric. As for the rest of the squad... trying to keep multiple party members healed for a solo cleric is HARD. You've never played a cleric, have you?

edit: ok... i think i understand the sitution after reading the post again. there is 3 mobs total, 2 hellfire and 1 fugly mob. the veno engage the fugly mob... the bm engage 1st hellfire... and the archer engage the 2nd hellfire. cleric died from healing the archer. now the question... how the f can the cleric get aggro. its prob not the fugly mob cause the veno should still be on it. so the problem lies in how the cleric take aggro from the arch or bm by just healing?

The cleric gets aggro when
1) The party member that has aggro is healed but dies anyway, and no one else has aggro on the mob, or
2) When the cleric heals a party member to which the mob has alerted, but on which no one has aggro.

(The above also applies to venos healing pets, by the way.)

the conclusion... the arch or bm f-ing sucks. and a follow up question would be... if its a full squad... wtf is the other 2 squad member doing?

Presumably helping the BM kill the ghoul, which is what both the veno and the problem archer should have been doing.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Multiple mobs, close together, that can't be isolated (immobile flames like in '29, kugulus like in '69)? Damn straight, the tank should hit them all before expecting heals. Charging into a mobile group? You had best hit them all, or any not hit are heading straight for the (most likely squishy against phys mobs) cleric. As for the rest of the squad... trying to keep multiple party members healed for a solo cleric is HARD. You've never played a cleric, have you?

The cleric gets aggro when
1) The party member that has aggro is healed but dies anyway, and no one else has aggro on the mob, or
2) When the cleric heals a party member to which the mob has alerted, but on which no one has aggro.

(The above also applies to venos healing pets, by the way.)

Presumably helping the BM kill the ghoul, which is what both the veno and the problem archer should have been doing.

i'll admit that the bulk of my experience is in dd. and my cleric is like 2 levels below yours... so i doubt you'll have much cleric experience over me if any at all. with that being said... no tank need to get the first hit on any mobs. heck... around half of the time i got the first hit on mobs in fb99s. as long as the squad know wtf they are suppose to do there is no need for any of that stuff.

what you are describing only really applies to sub par (or worse) squads. dd are there to do dmg, but a good one will also keep track of the cleric's hp and act accordingly. the op is a lvl 50 archer... why didn't he take aggro when he notice the other arch has gone down. hes more then enough to tank a single mob in fb29, even without a cleric. i'll leave the veno alone since shes taking the other mob. and the bm... why didn't he stun the lose mob when he notice a death? seriously... a well trained monkey can mindlessly attack one target until its dead. a half decent bm is there for crowd control... keep track of party hp and act accordingly. and the cleric... i got a feeling s/he ran around like a headless chicken when the arch died. for god's sake throw up plume shield and stop acting like a girl. at level 1 plume shield absore 50% dmg, add that to a robe's phy resist... thats approaching the phy dmg reduction of heavy armor. throw in ironheart, the cleric literally can't be killed by a single phy mob. furthermore, any other squad members shouldn't mindless attack a preselected target... would it kill you to have a brain and think for a change. and my apologies to all the girls out there that felt insulted when i compare a skill-less cleric to you.

there is a huge difference when running with complete idoits or skill-less players compare to those that actually have a faint idea of what they are doing.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... my apologies to all the girls out there that felt insulted when i compare a skill-less cleric to you.

Apology accepted... for now...

Collapse - Harshlands · November 2009

I dont think the problem is Arhcers taking agro necessarily, its knowing how to handle the agro> As archers we do get a few skills that reduce dmg taken. Its our responsibility to keep ourselves alive when we start to take agro, while the tank gets agro back. I myself have no problem taking and handling agro as an archer. In fact, sometimes i just end up tanking if whoever is tanking cant get agro back b:chuckle

Paleface - Heavens Tear · November 2009

if the archer isn't apologetic after aggroing mobs and getting someone killed,
boot them from squad and blacklist them.
everyone makes mistakes, what matters most is if you can learn from them.

Whadafak - Harshlands · November 2009

usually the barb who is **** and can't keep aggro.
when i was a 8x barb on LC i never let a 95 archer take aggro.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · November 2009

I am going to agree with Kiyoshi (except I am ignoring his insulting analogy): archers need to be responsible with their aggro pulling abilities. Used properly you can save lives.

My current favorite example is FB89 with a herc tanking. If the herc dies, I pull aggro and then I run away and reset the boss. You do not have to run very far with some of them. Of course a real tank would be faster, since a reset boss means they go back to full health. But keeping people alive is still nice.

(Or, with Phlebo or Ethereal Abomination, they are totally absent minded and you get aggro sometimes if you attack them when they get one of their flashes of amnesia, but if you are prepared you can tank or evade them until they forget about you, so that's totally different.)

Alyyy - Sanctuary · November 2009

@ OP

thats the reason why im carefull with archers >_>....most of them are so bashfull that they ruin the entire run

Kouankyuuka - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Last night in BH 39, We got 2 Tank, 3 clerics and me (archer) b:laugh

There were lotsa aggro pulling by Clerics from healing the Tanks. Even though the lightning attacks by the tanks went of 3 times, I managed to get aggro by shooting STA.

Cleric (Main healer) got it when healing the tanks and I managed to save him from one of the hellfires.

At Hercule Trioc, all the lady mobs were pulled (no veno) and we survived again. Another Save by me pulling aggro from healers.

I'm not sure on why aggro management was alittle off yesterday, but yet, we managed to survive adds (up to maximum 4) and also the whole BH 29. b:chuckle

Edit: Winged shell makes elite mobs damage a joke, unless from boss. b:laugh

Admante - Dreamweaver · November 2009

<- Tanked last boss in 2-2. I like pulling aggro.

Bad Archers- who aggro mobs

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