Sage or Demon

Ryuuhime - Sanctuary
Ryuuhime - Sanctuary Posts: 5 Arc User
edited October 2009 in Venomancer
Well....Sage or Demon?... its hard for me to decide i need opinions. Please vote and say why?
Thank you for you answer
Post edited by Ryuuhime - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Scandalous - Dreamweaver
    Scandalous - Dreamweaver Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I went Demon for the Demon abilities on the commonly used skills to help increase the damage I deal, Some other venos I know went Sage because most of them were HA.

    my 2 centsb:victory b:bye
    Back from Retirement

    Calamity taking over Dreamweaver since March 2009.
    RIP Calamity - October 30th / 2010
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    The most useful skills come from sage, its by far better in well roundedness for pvp and pve.

    -Sage venomous + Master Li's Technique = 3x sparking almost every minute = massive damage and no need for MP items/charms
    -Sage Fox Form: 150% def, nice for arcanes trying to solo higher level bosses that aoe
    -Sage Purge: 5m AOE, nice for groups in TW/RB Delta on those large hordes
    -Sage Sprint: An instant purify
    -Sage Amp: 30% more damage for 20s, way more damage output over demon
    -Sage Soul Degeneration: Lowers boss hp by 20%
    -Sage Lucky: Longer stun duration

    these help way more than most of demons upgrades in my eyes.

    Not to mention sage spark =900% weapon m.atk bonus, compared to demon 700.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I went sage because I wanted the debuff from soul degeneration (and could make sure I was able to get it due to tokens, it's unobtainable otherwise outside of a 1/960 chance from the last bosses in fb99). Otherwise I probably would have gone demon. Look at the skills and see which are more useful for you, the two sides are balanced extremely well for venos, so it's just a matter of what you like more.
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The most useful skills come from sage, its by far better in well roundedness for pvp and pve.

    -Sage venomous + Master Li's Technique = 3x sparking almost every minute = massive damage and no need for MP items/charmsDemon Crush Vigor and Demon Lending Hand yield more chi and Demon Venomous wood debuff adds more DPS when you don't have the chi to spark.
    -Sage Fox Form: 150% def, nice for arcanes trying to solo higher level bosses that aoeLevel 3 Fox Form gives 120% phys def boost. That extra 30% from Sage Fox Form only amounts to about 500 phys def for arcanes which isn't that much more effective. You can get that much from a decently refined belt or necky.
    -Sage Purge: 5m AOE, nice for groups in TW/RB Delta on those large hordes
    -Sage Sprint: An instant purifyDemon Sprint gives anti-stun. Much more useful in PVP which is based on stuns and spike damage. A purify every 60 seconds doesn't help that much.
    -Sage Amp: 30% more damage for 20s, way more damage output over demonWrong. Demon Amp gives 25% more damage for 26 seconds while Sage gives 30% for 20 seconds. It's been proven that Demon Amp has the superior damage output.
    -Sage Soul Degeneration: Lowers boss hp by 20%I admit this is a nice effect.
    -Sage Lucky: Longer stun durationIt's one extra second. Hardly make or break.

    these help way more than most of demons upgrades in my eyes.

    Not to mention sage spark =900% weapon m.atk bonus, compared to demon 700.

    Now some Demon skill benefits:

    Demon Venomous: 30% reduction of wood defense. Ups DPS quite bit and affects every veno and barb in the party.
    Demon Parasitic Nova: Adds 30% more damage to targets that get stunned/sealed. That's basically a stun, seal, and amp all in one move.
    Demon Metabolic/Nature's: Reduces cooldown to 3.5 minutes. Much more useful than 10% more HP/MP per heal.
    Demon Bramble: 75% reflect. Mobs die faster.
    Demon Summer Sprint: Anti-stun. Much more useful in PVP. No more stun locks from those pesky BMs.
    Demon Fox Form: Combined with Demon Sprint, makes you the fastest thing around short of Holy Path. Useful in PVP since it allows you to get in, use your debuffs, and get out to nuke.
    Dmeon Stunning Blow: 50% chance for a 3 second stun. Adds another stun to the short list that venos have.
    Demon Crush Vigor: On average, grants a spark every minute which is better than Master Li's Technique. Also usable on pillars/npcs if you're in pk mode/in a pk server.
    Demon Leech: Sage always hits, but Demon Leech gives more HP on average.


    Honestly, it's a toss-up. Both Sage and Demon have good abilities. It comes down to what benefits you most. I'm just laying out the Demon side of things.
  • WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    WaffleChan - Sanctuary Posts: 2,897 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Originally Posted by WaffleChan - Sanctuary
    The most useful skills come from sage, its by far better in well roundedness for pvp and pve.

    -Sage venomous + Master Li's Technique = 3x sparking almost every minute = massive damage and no need for MP items/charms Demon Crush Vigor and Demon Lending Hand yield more chi and Demon Venomous wood debuff adds more DPS when you don't have the chi to spark. Albeit the venomous is nice, Demon lending hand doesnt give you chi at all, and crush vigor is just a chance for a spark. I highly doubt anyone would take the time to use this over and over to try and get chi, when the 20% chance for more chi from venomous is a more effective way to gain it, so your point here is incorrect.
    -Sage Fox Form: 150% def, nice for arcanes trying to solo higher level bosses that aoeLevel 3 Fox Form gives 120% phys def boost. That extra 30% from Sage Fox Form only amounts to about 500 phys def for arcanes which isn't that much more effective. You can get that much from a decently refined belt or necky. I think you did your math wrong, its like hercs protect buff, it adds our base + 150 addition, IE: lets use a round number; 1000, you take 1000 x 1.5 = 1500, then add it to your base def, which would be 2500 def.
    -Sage Purge: 5m AOE, nice for groups in TW/RB Delta on those large hordes lol no comment? it is a good skill :P.
    -Sage Sprint: An instant purify Demon Sprint gives anti-stun. Much more useful in PVP which is based on stuns and spike damage. A purify every 60 seconds doesn't help that much. There are other nice uses for this in PVE, such as slowed channeling, or another phoenix's bleed. This one is a toss up.
    -Sage Amp: 30% more damage for 20s, way more damage output over demon Wrong. Demon Amp gives 25% more damage for 26 seconds while Sage gives 30% for 20 seconds. It's been proven that Demon Amp has the superior damage output. Math please? Id like proof :[.
    -Sage Soul Degeneration: Lowers boss hp by 20% I admit this is a nice effect.
    -Sage Lucky: Longer stun duration It's one extra second. Hardly make or break. You just got finished saying PVP is about STUNS and spike damage, Id say its pretty make or break.

    Not to mention sage spark =900% weapon m.atk bonus, compared to demon 700
    But like the above poster said, it really is a toss up, both have really nice benefits, but in my opinion I prefer sage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    advice to fledgling archers:
    Going sage is like drunken sex, at first she may look good, but when you wake up the next morning; you'll look at her and go WHAT HAVE I DONE.
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Demon Lending Hand has a chance to give two sparks to the target while only costing the caster one spark. This also works if cast on yourself. Everytime you cast it on yourself there's a 20% chance to get another spark out of thin air. Demon Lending Hand's cooldown is 15 seconds. As long as you have a spark, you can cast it on yourself every 15 seconds with no negative effects. If you don't get the extra spark, you still retain the original spark. So that amounts to a free spark every 75 seconds. Let's see: 20% chance to get a free spark or 20% to get 30 chi and you need a mob around. I'd say Demon Lending Hand is worth it. And again Demon Crush Vigor gives more chi on average than the Sage Chi skill. 50% to get a spark every 30 seconds is damn good and it only costs 12 mana. Much more efficient ways to get chi than Sage Venomous.

    You didn't get my Fox Form comment at all. I was comparing the physical defense difference between Level 3 Fox Form to Sage Fox Form. Level 3 Fox Form already gives 120% phys def. Using your example, Level 3 Fox Form would give 2200 phys def. So the difference between Sage Fox Form and Level 3 Fox Form is 300 phys def. Most arcanes don't have more than 2000-2500 phy def. So the physical defense difference between Level 3 Fox Form and Sage Fox Form does not amount to that much.

    Really think about when you have a status effect on you and which of those times you'd love to have a purify. Poison is the main one. If you have a nix on you and you're arcane, you'd be dead before it matters. Burn and Earth DOT hurt too, but are rarer. Slow channeling, slow, lower phys damage, lower mag/phys def, and things of that nature don't really bother a veno. Poison's really the only time you'd love to have a purify. However, there's always pots, charms, and other ways to deal with poison. Now think of how many times you've gotten stun locked and 3-hit by a BM. Plus at 9x you get access to Lunar, TT 3-2, 3-3, RB Delta, Frost. All places with mobs and bosses that use stuns/freezes/sleep aoes.

    I didn't comment on Purge cause there's nothing to say. It's a toss-up. Yes Sage is AOE, but it's 5 meters. That's not a lot of range. So it's only useful in TW or mass PvP. Any other situation, Demon Purge's lower cooldown makes it better.

    As for Sage Lucky, yes PvP is all about Stuns, but ONE SECOND is not going to change anything. Plus, if you'd read my other comments you'd see that I mentioned Demon Stunning Blow is another stun that's more useful than adding 1 second on an existing stun.

    Ok let's say a squad does 10000 DPS. Here's the damage for a 30 second amp cycle for both Sage and Demon Amp. Note: the red text is purely for explanation and is not part of the math equation. I could not get the numbers to format right so I had to do it this way.

    Sage Amp:
    10000(1.3*20)(30% dmg for 20 seconds) + 10000(10)(remaining 10 seconds) = 360000

    Demon Amp:
    10000(1.25*26)(25% dmg for 26 seconds) + 10000(4)(remaining 4 seconds) = 365000

    Demon Amp has the higher damage output. Keep in mind this is only for 10k DPS which is nowhere near what a good squad can put out. Plus, this is only one 30 second amp cycle. The effect gets magnified as DPS goes up and repeated every time Amp is used during a battle.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Demon Lending Hand has a chance to give two sparks to the target while only costing the caster one spark. This also works if cast on yourself. Everytime you cast it on yourself there's a 20% chance to get another spark out of thin air. Demon Lending Hand's cooldown is 15 seconds. As long as you have a spark, you can cast it on yourself every 15 seconds with no negative effects. If you don't get the extra spark, you still retain the original spark. So that amounts to a free spark every 75 seconds. Let's see: 20% chance to get a free spark or 20% to get 30 chi and you need a mob around. I'd say Demon Lending Hand is worth it. And again Demon Crush Vigor gives more chi on average than the Sage Chi skill. 50% to get a spark every 30 seconds is damn good and it only costs 12 mana. Much more efficient ways to get chi than Sage Venomous.

    If you're after chi gain, sage has Master Li's, sage venomous (which you're going to be casting while nuking anyways), a blazing scarab that's worth casting (with demon venomous blazing is never more damage), and is capable of the same lending hand trick for a spark every 60 seconds rather than every 75. Oh, and Master Li is 50 chi every 60 seconds, that's the same as demon crush vigor gives. All of this, also doesn't taken into account that sage uses less chi which also results in more.
    I didn't comment on Purge cause there's nothing to say. It's a toss-up. Yes Sage is AOE, but it's 5 meters. That's not a lot of range. So it's only useful in TW or mass PvP. Any other situation, Demon Purge's lower cooldown makes it better.

    A faster cooldown is only worthwhile when buffs are often being cast by mobs. There's about as many mass buffing kill situations as there are where one mob is always buffing itself. They both have a handful of situations in which they're very nice, but I'm not sure how you can argue one being better than the other when many times the difference won't exist.
    Ok let's say a squad does 10000 DPS. Here's the damage for a 30 second amp cycle for both Sage and Demon Amp. Note: the red text is purely for explanation and is not part of the math equation. I could not get the numbers to format right so I had to do it this way.

    Sage Amp:
    10000(1.3*20)(30% dmg for 20 seconds) + 10000(10)(remaining 10 seconds) = 360000

    Demon Amp:
    10000(1.25*26)(25% dmg for 26 seconds) + 10000(4)(remaining 4 seconds) = 365000

    Demon Amp has the higher damage output. Keep in mind this is only for 10k DPS which is nowhere near what a good squad can put out. Plus, this is only one 30 second amp cycle. The effect gets magnified as DPS goes up and repeated every time Amp is used during a battle.

    Extreme Poison has multiplicative stacking with amp. Using your numbers, if you fire off one poison per amp (about what one genie can sustain) that changes to 156% damage for 10 sec, 130% damage for 10 sec, and 100% damage for 12.7 sec under sage which comes to 413000 damage while for demon you have 150% damage for 10 sec, 125% damage for 16 sec and 100% damage for 6.7 sec which comes to 417000 damage. A 1% difference, if you include other multiplicative stacking such as that curse skill, physical debuffs, magic debuffs, and so on you end up with sage coming out ahead. Amp doesn't occur in a vacuum so there's no reason to calculate it like it does. That said, on average I think you would see slightly better returns from demon however a 1% difference in either direction is really nothing.

    While on the subject of comparing in a vacuum, you can't really compare demon/sage skill vs skill either as skills interact with eachother and that's why most of these comparisons fail. Each skill has some skills stronger than the other, so when one skill is held up as superior it can be countered by holding another skill up and on paper calculations are very difficult to have perfectly mirror ingame results. Lets take amp for example, if you use sage amp, you're going to run into a situation where your last nuke is going to fire after amp fades, but demon amp won't run into that issue, however at the same time wood/melee mastery for sage give more damage than demon mastery does, and sage can fire off triple sparks more often. Little things like that make perfect comparisons rather complex and it gets even worse when you start bringing other classes into things as well.
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    If you're after chi gain, sage has Master Li's, sage venomous (which you're going to be casting while nuking anyways), a blazing scarab that's worth casting (with demon venomous blazing is never more damage), and is capable of the same lending hand trick for a spark every 60 seconds rather than every 75. Oh, and Master Li is 50 chi every 60 seconds, that's the same as demon crush vigor gives. All of this, also doesn't taken into account that sage uses less chi which also results in more.

    First, Demon Crush Vigor has a 50% chance to get a spark every 30 seconds. That's an average of 1 spark(100chi) every minute compared to Master Li's which is 50 chi every minute. Second, I never said Demon has better chi management that Sage. I was just pointing out that demon has its own chi skills. Demon can build chi fast as well and can dish out the damage without sparks.
    A faster cooldown is only worthwhile when buffs are often being cast by mobs. There's about as many mass buffing kill situations as there are where one mob is always buffing itself. They both have a handful of situations in which they're very nice, but I'm not sure how you can argue one being better than the other when many times the difference won't exist.

    Did you read the first two sentences I wrote? I didn't bring up Purge or comment on it in the original post since I don't think one is better than the other. They both have their uses and both are rather limited.


    I was just showing that Demon Amp has a better damage output than Sage Amp. The difference is minor, but it is there. I honestly don't care. Amp is very low on my wishlist. Waffle started listing Sage skills so I countered in the same fashion. My goal is not say Demon is better, but to provide information on the Demon skills so others can make a well-informed decision. This board is pretty much one-note when it comes to the Sage/Demon question. Go Sage for the chi and better magic attack from the Sage Spark. Well Demon has chi skills. Sage may gain chi faster, but Demon makes up for it with better damage overall. Speaking of the better magic attack from Sage Spark, 200% is a lot and does account for some good damage. However, Demon Spark + Demon Venomous wood debuff is not too shabby either.
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I have seen only sage Venos even those who TW a lot.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Vinat - Sanctuary
    Vinat - Sanctuary Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    nobody's mentioned that demon's anti-stun thing is only for 6 seconds after the cast. thats the only benefit. 6 seconds, every 60 seconds. and the self purify helps a lot vs poisons and hp debuffs, amongst other things.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    In short, the venomancer choice between sage and demon is so balanced that no one can ever decide.

    AKA: Both Sage AND Demon are better!

    The only person who can make the choice is YOU.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Vinat - Sanctuary wrote: »
    nobody's mentioned that demon's anti-stun thing is only for 6 seconds after the cast. thats the only benefit. 6 seconds, every 60 seconds. and the self purify helps a lot vs poisons and hp debuffs, amongst other things.

    6 seconds is all you need. It's a preventative measure. You use it when you know a stun/freeze/slow is coming so it doesn't take effect. When you're dueling/pvping, you use it at the start since people tend to use their stuns at the beginning of the fight and that gives you an edge. Bosses tend to use their stun/sleep/freeze moves in regular intervals. Sometimes they telegraph them by talking or a channeling animation. It's not hard to time it so you don't get stunned.

    Bosses that tend to use HP debuffs tend to spam them every few seconds. Purifying doesn't help that much since only your max HP goes up and a few seconds later the debuff will be reapplied. I've already said that DoTs are the best use of the self purify. Poison is the most common. But there's many different ways to deal with poison. Charms, regular pots, apoth pots, metabolic, soul transfusion, leech.

    I'd rather be able to avoid the stun every 60 seconds rather than purify a debuff every 60 seconds that doesn't really affect me that much.
  • Momento - Heavens Tear
    Momento - Heavens Tear Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    demon because:
    master li's technique = 50 chi every minute
    mo zun's taunt = 50 chi drain every 30 seconds
    which means 1v1 sage vs demon = sage loses more chi than it gains.

    demon venomous = decreases wood resistance by 30% and its spammable. all your attacks are wood. beats the hell out of sage wood mastery.

    sage foxform = more or less irrelevant for arcane venomancer
    you will rarely ever fight in fox form and 30% more pdef of an arcane veno is still very little for that off chance you are caught in fox form.

    demon foxform = speed boost is good for running away and catching people that run away.

    sage summer sprint = cant be cast while stunned, only good for removing bleed.
    demon summer sprint = immune to stun, good for closing in on the kill. can be combined with feral concentration for 10 seconds invulerability.

    demon parasitic nova = freeze, seal and amp.
    sage parasitic nova = saves chi

    demon lucky scrab and demon noxious gas = less cool down, more dps

    crit > damage
    crit is better than consistent damage in pvp. when you start fighting venos with 10k+ hp, 5% extra damage wont be enough to kill them. In a long fight with evenly skilled players, they arent gonna do enough damage to you and you arent gonna do enough damage to them. All you will do is tick each other's charms. Really it usually comes down to whoever gets the lucky shot in. Whoever lands that lucky crit shot or demon ironwood wins. Basically as a demon, you are gonna just have to survive until your skills go off but when they go off its almost an instant kill. Demon also gives you the chance to kill regardless of how many levels they have on you and how much better gear they have.

    demon purge > sage purge
    purge is just **** over powered. but you will rarely find people in a bunch to utilize sage purge effectively and running into such a group is a charm tick at the very least. i'd prefer a lower cooldown to sage purge anyday.

    Sage spark > Demon spark
    But you rarely ever spark as a veno. you are better off saving that chi for bramble hood or parasitic nova. Sparking is like putting a huge "Kill me" sign on. Especially if you are demon.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    all your attacks are wood.

    No:

    Befuddling Mist
    Fox Wallop
    Stunning Blow
    etc etc
    beats the hell out of sage wood mastery.

    Usually when skills go up, their MP cost goes up. Mastery doesn't have this issue.
    sage foxform = more or less irrelevant for arcane venomancer

    Nonsense. I'm pure mage and use it very often.
    you will rarely ever fight in fox form and 30% more pdef of an arcane veno is still very little for that off chance you are caught in fox form.

    With the boost, I have almost as much pdef as mdef. As you get higher level you get more phys AoE and aggro switching bosses.
    sage summer sprint = cant be cast while stunned, only good for removing bleed.

    Nonsense: Poison, Slow, and other DoTs / Curses.
    But you rarely ever spark as a veno. you are better off saving that chi for bramble hood or parasitic nova. Sparking is like putting a huge "Kill me" sign on. Especially if you are demon.

    Maybe in PvP.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Nonsense: Poison, Slow, and other DoTs / Curses.

    I've already said that DoTs are the best use for the self purify. However, metal, earth, and burn DoTs are rather rare. Most often you'll see poison and bleed. There are several different ways to deal with those DoTs ranging from pots to chams to leech to soul trans. When you're stunned, you can't do anything.

    Curses/Debuffs from mobs/bosses are a joke mostly. 90+'s shouldn't have any problem with most debuffs except for the increased damage one and that's rare as well. There's one mob in Hell I know that casts it and some bosses, but that mob is easily avoided and those bosses are usually being tanked by Barbs so Venos don't deal with that debuff much. Most debuffs from bosses roll off our backs since either a barb is tanking or our pet is. So the debuff doesn't matter. Even the slow channeling debuff is trivial. I have no +channeling gear and it doesn't affect my ability to heal my pets or nuke much.

    I don't know why you brought up Slow since it only lasts a few seconds when mobs cast it and when a boss casts it, it's irrevelant since people aren't moving. However, Demon Summer Sprint provides immunity to movement impairing debuffs which includes Slow.
  • Damewort - Sanctuary
    Damewort - Sanctuary Posts: 573 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    As other said already - it really depends on your playstyle. Do you pk or plan to participate in TW? How often do you use fox form and fox skills? What is your build? What do you like more - dealing huge damage, debuff or survivability?

    -Venomous Scarab: In my opinion, sage version is useless as it is too much gamble for not too big gain. Demon on the other side, decreases target's Wood resistance by 30% for 6 seconds. Extra damage is always nice, but basicly only you and other venos gain from it.
    -Ironwood Scarab: Longer lasting phys.debuff effect is good if you are tanking bosses and need to spam heal as you have to cast it less often. If barb is tanking, then you can keep boss almost constantly debuffed + a chance to remove his physical defence fully.
    -(ignores pure DoT skills)
    -Noxious Gas: Both are good, in my opinion. Sage concentrates more on increasing DoT damage, while Demon - on imidiate damage (as poison doesn't stack, if I am not wrong). I haven't counted, but I assume that damage over time might be really similar for both.
    -Lucky Scarab: I suppose 1sec extra stun from Sage matters in pvp. If not to cast extra spell, then at least to stop the spell enemy is casting. In pve, Demon on other side offers more damage over time.
    -Parasite Nova: Stun, seal and amp from one skill? Sounds really nice for demon. Honestly, how often and where do you use nova? I used it mostly only in RB, where chi aura provided me with enough sparks to almost spam it, FC and some mass attacks from mobs. Only place where "maybe saved spark" would be usefull would be in FC.
    -Wood Mastery: Really matter of preferences. Some like critical hits more, some considers, that higher damage is better than critical hits. Btw, don't misunderstand - Sage gives only +5% extra damage to already existing +20% of lvl10 Wood Mastery.
    -Metabolic Boost/Nature's Grace: Sage gives back more hp/mp, so I guess it is good for emergency. I see Demon more useful as I would use them more often, if I could. Question is - do you spend 10% of your mp/hp in 90sec or not?
    -Lending Hand: Matter of opinion. Sage might save you one spark, but if you have Master Li's Technique, then does this one saved spark matters? On the otherside, demon helps in squads more.
    -Bramble Guard: In this time those 15% are better than longer lasting effect. In most cases veno is near by melees and can cast it again when bramble ends. Maybe sage is good only for mp saving.
    -Summer Sprint: Both versions are really good. Instant purify against invincibilty. Invincibilty as Demon Summer Sprint with Feral Concentration gives you 15sec of being immune to all damage (does this includes DoT too?).
    -Fox Form: This really mostly matter on your build and playstyle. Those who play in foxform a lot, will enjoy sage version more. While those who use it rarely might like it more because of its speed buff
    -Purge: there is usage for both versions, but I think that PKers and expecially those in TW gains the most from Sage version. Demon is good mostly only on self-buffing bosses
    -Amplify Damage: +5%vs+6sec. I don't see too big difference between them as both are good in solo/squad, with or without extreme poison.
    -Soul Degeneration: I agree, Sage version is much better. Does it stack with archer's Sharp Tooth too? If no, then makes it awesome when there is no archer in squad. Demon might be nice against bm/barb/archer in pvp.
    -Crush Vigor: lessens difference between Sage and Demon "chi" skills
    -Fox attack skills: can't comment too much. as I don't use them

    Yes, my point of view is mostly about pve. All my pvp experience comes from duels, what can't be compared to real pk. So there is no point to talk about thinks I don't know too well

    My advice, decide what you want and then go through list of Sage/Demon skills. Some of those skills does sound nice, but what's the point if you never use it? Poll won't help you deicide, maybe only comments posted here might help.

    As for me, I went Demon cause I like critical hits and TWs isn't an option for me (not planing to pk for few lvls too). So I went Demon cause of few spells and its usefulness in RBs.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Damewort - Sanctuary wrote: »
    -Soul Degeneration: I agree, Sage version is much better. Does it stack with archer's Sharp Tooth too? If no, then makes it awesome when there is no archer in squad. Demon might be nice against bm/barb/archer in pvp.

    A note on this point: While the max HP debuff can't stack, it's also SUPERIOR to a regular archer's sharptooth Only a sage archer can match the % of max HP removed and seeing as most archers go demon for obvious reasons...
  • cybluerr
    cybluerr Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Demon was the more popular choice back then but i'm seeing more going sage lately. Of course with the anni event, going sage for arcanes suddenly doesn't seem that bad now with the lunar rings + cape giving you a huge pdef boost to make sage foxform more useful. Even w/o sage foxform arcanes can get pretty decent survivability now with the new stuff.

    That being said, i chose demon for the spike damage. A veno's matk is already pretty gimped compared to a cleric or wiz so having a constant increase in matk won't really give that much chance to kill someone. You mostly either can or cannot, with spike damage however there is a chance you could. Of course it is still a chance...but in the mess of TW its very useful. If you are LA build you benefit even more for the crits.
  • Plicid - Heavens Tear
    Plicid - Heavens Tear Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Both are Very good. My thoughts if you wear Arcane Armor go Demon, if you wear Light or Heavy Go sage. I could write a page on why, but there enough massive posts here already lols.
  • Arshies - Sanctuary
    Arshies - Sanctuary Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I will go Sage for this simple reasons.....

    WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    -Sage Purge: 5m AOE, nice for groups in TW/RB Delta on those large hordes
    -Sage Sprint: An instant purify
    -Sage Amp: 30% more damage for 20s, way more damage output over demon

    Dam I want a flying tomato (demon fairy) XD
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Arshies - Sanctuary
  • redoctober123
    redoctober123 Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I went demon for mainly the spike damage; for me the point of endgame is pvp and with everyone running with charms you need that extra crit. Combine that with the lunar orn/wep, LA build and a crit tome and you have a seriously dangerous crit rate (I have 19% crit right now).

    Of course you lose out on the demon spark, 200% less damage is nothing to scoff at but you make up for it slightly with the venomous scarab wood debuff which imo is slightly OP since it always hits, unlike the sage's chi restore which has a chance.

    Another big desider for me was the Demon Nova. Huge damage, stun and amp was just something I could not miss. Its devastating; no other word for it.

    With the lunar orn/wep/robe your channeling speed is so reduced you can throw this out at anytime no problem. If it crits and stuns+AMPS, then you can pretty much say goodbye to whoever your fighting.

    Demon ironwood, while it hits rarely, is a seroius issue for barbs and BMs. I have lost count how many barbs I had debuffed with them realising too late and being eaten alive by my nix. The big issue that I see a lot of venos missing with demon ironwood is that if it doesn't hit, the target simply receives the damage and no debuff whatsoever; so you must put up with the fact that it will simply damage the target 80% of the time. But when it hits... bad things happen.

    Demon's anti stun is something that has saved my butt a number of times in pvp, especially vs BMs.

    Amp has been discussed quite a lot already; but one thing I didn't see mentioned is that you must remember the extra 6 seconds allow other classes to get more skills in if your team is coordinated (which in the endgame, they are... at least for me); one skill doing 30%, or two skills doing 20% each (also more chance of a crit)?

    I don't really miss the Soul Degen; I don't see why its such a big desider for so many people. In the endgame you are almost certianly going to take archers against the really bad bosses, and while their skill is slightly worse, slightly is the keyword here. Its a useful skill alright, and will save you time when you solo but imo its not a skill you should base your choice on.

    In pvp its fairly useless; evasion is probably more useful, however I have yet to test how an evasion debuff works against barbs, but I don't really think it will help that much with each barb now showing off 2 lunar rings.

    The reflect buff, while not something I based my choice on, is better on the demon side hands down.

    One more thing: the HP and MP skills. The reduced cooldown is, imo, a far better edition then an extra 10% recovery. Means you can do your little cheating MP->ST->HP routine that bit quicker. With sage, that extra 20% HP/MP you gain is wasted, and the cooldown is the same.. boo

    If you would ask me whats the biggest thing I miss; I'd have to say the 200% on spark. But demon would be too OP if they got the 900% instead of sage, so I'm happy with it as it is.

    Oh and the demon fairies look a lot more badass.
  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    if my math is correct sage has the highest average and the highest spike damage...

    mastery lv: average dmg / crit dmg

    no wood mastery: 100% / 200%
    lv10 mastery: 125% / 250%
    demon mastery: 125%+125%*0.02=127.5% / 250%
    sage mastery: 130% / 260%
    demon mastery+20%crit: 125%+125%*0.22=152.5% / 250%
    sage mastery+20%crit: 130%+130%*0.20=156% / 260%
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • redoctober123
    redoctober123 Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »
    if my math is correct sage has the highest average and the highest spike damage...

    mastery lv: average dmg / crit dmg

    no wood mastery: 100% / 200%
    lv10 mastery: 125% / 250%
    demon mastery: 125%+125%*0.02=127.5% / 250%
    sage mastery: 130% / 260%
    demon mastery+20%crit: 125%+125%*0.22=152.5% / 250%
    sage mastery+20%crit: 130%+130%*0.20=156% / 260%

    Not sure if the maths is right but I would not be surprised if it were true. But spike damage is not about how high it is, its about its frequency. You simply get more spikes with a higher crit rate which the demon version provides.

    Also, you must not forget the wood debuff demon venomous scrab gives; its significant enough to skew those figures, perphaps even to the demon's favour; it is after all the main spam skill.

    I know someone might say sage v.scarab gives more chi, chi equals more spark... but bear in mind A) my point of view is more pvp where you will usually have enough chi to last the fight and copious chi refill is irrelevent and B) outside pvp you shouldn't be sparking much anyway as a veno, especially in squads.... well at least I don't due to my high crit.
  • Sevas - Heavens Tear
    Sevas - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,132 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    I argued with a friend over Sage/Demon Ironwood. He said if a Sage Veno constantly used Ironwood for debuffing it would mean a higher damage output compared to the Demon. However, many venos don't use Ironwood all that frequently, maybe once every 20-30 seconds (if they realize how important it is and have a hotkey for it).

    Chi is irrelevent. If you're going to waste time using the Sage gain chi skill you've lost 1-2 turns at dealing damage on your opponent. By then you're probably dead or very near to it (or if it's duel - you've been DEFEATED).

    Demon - PvP
    Sage - Support/Squad

    I do know some pretty good sage venos in TW but they are few and far between. Things to consider when picking a path:

    1. Realistic Availability of skills
    2. Realistic situations of use for said skills
    3. Which skills you use the most + which side offers the better advantage for it
    4. What you want your end result to be (PvP or "support")
  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Sevas - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Chi is irrelevent. If you're going to waste time using the Sage gain chi skill you've lost 1-2 turns at dealing damage on your opponent. By then you're probably dead or very near to it (or if it's duel - you've been DEFEATED).

    chi is irrelevent? b:shocked
    and since when do you lose 1-2turns when using an INSTANT skill?
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • Vidalaire - Heavens Tear
    Vidalaire - Heavens Tear Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    The chi gain skill is not instant. There is some channeling and cast time when you use that skill. Instant skills can be used while running without stopping. I.E. Fox Form and Soul Transfusion. You have to stop to use the chi gain skill.
  • redoctober123
    redoctober123 Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Yea, the chi skill has a channel of 1.5 seconds or so... and a cast time.
  • _Miku_ - Lost City
    _Miku_ - Lost City Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    Is it a good idea for a HA/AA to go demon? O.o
    Cuz I want to have super survivability but i also want to kill people.

    I know its a long time from what ever lvl i am now XD but i was just wondering
  • Alphae - Lost City
    Alphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    _Miku_ - Lost City wrote: »
    Is it a good idea for a HA/AA to go demon? O.o
    Cuz I want to have super survivability but i also want to kill people.

    I know its a long time from what ever lvl i am now XD but i was just wondering

    Ask Obsessed, she's a heavy demon veno. I'm not sure if she frequents the forums anymore though.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • /NiKi - Lost City
    /NiKi - Lost City Posts: 306 Arc User
    edited October 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    Nonsense. I'm pure mage and use it very often.

    ^^

    i went sage especially cuz of fox form because i am arcane veno so i need pdef as much as i can get.
    most of HA venos in LC went demon,i guess to get more dmg since they lack in it compared to AA.

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