Eldergoth Marksman

Sure, why not. They're cheaper than kowlins anyways. Since you're close to the level of the marksmen, you should get one.

inb4tweakz.

I prefer the kowlin for the speed. In a squad, I like to pull so a new mob to kill arrives just as the previous one dies. And the kowlin's higher speed makes it easier to time that. And the bright red light show when it uses a skill makes timing the unsummon dirt simple. Mine only gets hit about once every 40 pulls, dies about once every 100-200 pulls.

But there are some pulls where a ranged pet is pretty much your only option. Particularly ones where you're pulling a boss from within or behind a group of other mobs (e.g. wurlord). So I keep a marksman in my bag as well.

If you're only going to level up one pull pet, that (and the fact that the kowlin is a rare) would make the marksman the better choice. My kowlin doubles as my debuff pet so I didn't have a problem with leveling it up as well. So for me, I use the kowlin most of the time, pull out the marksman for special circumstances. YMMV

Yes tweakz, your hatred for the kowlin and magmite are well known. b:chuckle

That doesn't make them bad pets. For the way I do things, the kowlin works best most of the time. My playstyle stresses time-efficiency, and the estimation I have to do in my head for when to send the pet to get the next mob while we're fighting the current mob becomes a lot simpler with a faster-moving pet. Having my pull pet double as my debuff pet also means I don't waste the group's time with unsummoning and summoning a pet when transitioning from fighting to pulling and back.

I wouldn't exactly classify the marksman as a great grinder. IMHO you spend too much time healing it when you could be contributing damage to the mob. Defensively, neither of these pets hold a candle to something like a magmite or lunar lupin. Even an antelope has better DPS, pdef, and mdef. So I only use them when I know they're not going to be tanking (hence the debuff pet role).

In that respect, to me the marksman is a one-trick pony. It's a really good trick (the ranged attack) - good enough to make it a "must have" pet IMHO - but it's still just one trick. If I want a tank, there are much better pets. If I want DPS, there are much better pets. If I want debuffs, there are pets which come with a better selection of debuff skills by default. If I want speed, there are faster pets (much faster if you can get a rare).

The time investment required to level a pet forces us to compromise. Someone may give up a little DPS for better defense. Others may go for a pull/debuff combo. And others like tweakz feel the med-DPS, med-defense of the marksman combined with its one trick makes a good combo. I think there's a tendency to belittle other people's choices simply as a means of self-validation - that in order to believe that you made a good choice, you have to feel others made a bad choice.

But to me the game is not one simple stereotypical encounter for which there is one optimal pet for everyone. The encounters each player will face with more frequency will depend on what they like to do. Some people like to do TTs and FBs, some grind, others PvP. So depending on your individual playstyle, the best pet for you will be different than the best pet for someone else.

For the Marksman, this is simple since it's free. Go tame one and play with it and see how well you like it. Like I said, IMHO it's a must-have for the ranged attack. And who knows, maybe like tweakz you'll find that it's a great general-use pet for your playstyle.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes tweakz, your hatred for the kowlin and magmite are well known.

I have a Kowlin, and used the Magmite extensively up to the time I got a Herc. It's then that I realized the mistakes.

That doesn't make them bad pets.

Poor argument. You could address why I don't like them rather than that I don't like them.

For the way I do things, the kowlin works best most of the time. My playstyle stresses time-efficiency, and the estimation I have to do in my head for when to send the pet to get the next mob while we're fighting the current mob becomes a lot simpler with a faster-moving pet. Having my pull pet double as my debuff pet also means I don't waste the group's time with unsummoning and summoning a pet when transitioning from fighting to pulling and back.

That's great for lower levels and non AoE bosses.

I wouldn't exactly classify the marksman as a great grinder. IMHO you spend too much time healing it when you could be contributing damage to the mob.

Heal as marksman is on way to other mob allowing aggro time. -No waste of healing time at all.

Defensively, neither of these pets hold a candle to something like a magmite or lunar lupin. Even an antelope has better DPS, pdef, and mdef.

I often suggest Lupin as grinder pet, and Antelope can't avoid melee. Magmite's are slow, bulky, mag def deficient. It's usefulness dwindles to almost nothing in presence of Herc.

So I only use them when I know they're not going to be tanking (hence the debuff pet role).

In that respect, to me the marksman is a one-trick pony. It's a really good trick (the ranged attack) - good enough to make it a "must have" pet IMHO - but it's still just one trick. If I want a tank, there are much better pets.

Try building a cheaper world boss tanker.

If I want DPS, there are much better pets.

Marksman avoids short range AoE for less wasted time healing = more DPS.

If I want debuffs, there are pets which come with a better selection of debuff skills by default.

Debuffs generate aggro, and are better done by chars.

If I want speed, there are faster pets (much faster if you can get a rare).

Speeds usefulness is over rated.

The time investment required to level a pet forces us to compromise. Someone may give up a little DPS for better defense. Others may go for a pull/debuff combo. And others like tweakz feel the med-DPS, med-defense of the marksman combined with its one trick makes a good combo. I think there's a tendency to belittle other people's choices simply as a means of self-validation - that in order to believe that you made a good choice, you have to feel others made a bad choice.

Looks like you're the one belittling without even checking the reference.

I'm still happy with my eldergoth marskman being able to range tank a few boss(like omnipotent drake yesterday, took 10-15mins using ironwood every 10-12 secs and spam healing, but whatever b:laugh ), preventing mobs from kiting and being a decent lurer.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I wouldn't exactly classify the marksman as a great grinder. IMHO you spend too much time healing it when you could be contributing damage to the mob. Defensively, neither of these pets hold a candle to something like a magmite or lunar lupin. Even an antelope has better DPS, pdef, and mdef. So I only use them when I know they're not going to be tanking (hence the debuff pet role).

In my opinion, the whole concept of a "grinding pet" is flawed. Having a pet you use exclusively, or at least mostly for grinding seems like a waste of pet bag space to me.

I look at it this way. If you want to keep all your tanking/luring/debuffing pets leveled, you have to grind with them anyway. Whether or not they are good for grinding is irrelevant.

Although, I have been thinking about raising another pet...probably either an Antelope Pup or Darkbreed Wolfkin, but I can't decide which to choose, or what to do with it once I get it all leveled up.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In my opinion, the whole concept of a "grinding pet" is flawed. Having a pet you use exclusively, or at least mostly for grinding seems like a waste of pet bag space to me.

I look at it this way. If you want to keep all your tanking/luring/debuffing pets leveled, you have to grind with them anyway. Whether or not they are good for grinding is irrelevant.

I only grind with my Armored Bear and Frogling as much as I have to to level them. Since I don't use cash shop, I get a lot of my xp from OMA. There's too much grinding to do for a pet's ability to be irrelevant. I do have multi-use pets though. I grind with Nix, Herc, Marksman, Scorpion (yep actually found a use for it on a particular mob), and Plumpfish. Each is chosen depending on terrain and mob. I have no use atm for my Kowlin and would consider that spot for a wolf with Howl exclusively for grinding with.

Allyson - Harshlands wrote: »

Is it worth bringing one up as a pull pet?b:surrender
or is the Knowlin better at it?

Hi Allyson, both pets are good depending on how u see their uses.

Knowlin's speed is good, enabling efficient pulling of various mobs. However, the knowlin is not a range attacker, so it must go close to the mob before it gets a chance to pull. If you are using Knowlin to pull bosses, it might just pull a shelve-load of mini-monsters around it as well, causing a whole truck-load of mobs aggro-ing to u, or worse...your poor pet.

Getting pets like the eldergoth marksman's good coz it has decent physical and magical defence and can tank most bosses as it has decent hp. The biggest difference is that it can pull mobs/bosses away from a distance.

In certain parties that I've been in, having a ranged-pet to pull bosses's a MUST. Your role's to pull the bosses towards the party >> have barbarian take over to tank (other pets in the party can take over to tank damage also) >> while u leave your eldergoth marksman free from damage while still able to support from far.

P.S I stand corrected for any mis-representation of info. But I hope this consideration helps you in your decision.

You're right. I'm a poor veno. Sure, I could grind more and stop doing dailies, but none of my pets are too well suited for just grinding.

My Windwalking pig is underleveled and has low level skills. My marksman still has his stock skills, and is pretty bad at holding aggro. My Shadou cub also has low level skills.

The only really "good" grinding pet I have right now is a plumpfish, but I can't find any decent water mobs to grind on at my level.

QTKyuubi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Eldergoths have decent hp (worthy of tanking bosses), strong attack (at lvl 90 it's attack is ~900pts higher than kowlin and only ~100 pts lower than magmite)

FYI, the eldergoth has 0.5 attack rate. It only attacks once every 2 seconds. The magmite attacks once every 1.67 seconds. The kowlin attacks once every 1.25 seconds. So while the eldergoth's damage per hit is higher, its damage over time is lower.

It's not a straightforward calculation though, because damage skills like bash are on a fixed cooldown regardless of pet's attack speed. But if you assume each pet is level 90 and does one Bash 5 + regular attacks every 8 sec, normalizing to the magmite:

Magmite - 100%
Kowlin - 87.3%
Marksman - 84.1%

If you add a second 8-sec damage skill leveled to 5, the rankings shift:

Magmite - 100%
Marksman - 86.1%
Kowlin - 84.6%

In reality, Bash takes a bit longer than 8 sec to cycle, so the kowlin ends up doing a bit better than in this hypothetical comparison. OTOH, the first regular melee hit seems to happen instantaneously after the first Bash, which would favor the two slower pets in short fights since they're getting a "free" extra hit at the start.

Bottom line is there isn't much difference between the damage of the eldergoth and kowlin, and the magmite does significantly more damage than either of them.

and is a faster pull pet then the kowlin

We hashed out the math on this in another thread. Even with the eldergoth's ranged attack, the kowlin is faster. IIRC, the tradeoff happens at about 20-25 m (kowlin is faster beyond that range), which is probably a lot closer than you want to be for pulling. But the time difference between the two is very slight - less than 2 seconds at the extreme range where your pet warps back to you - and probably won't matter to most people. I do find the kowlin's extra speed useful at pulling wanderers.

Where the eldergoth does have an advantage is when you're running back as you pull (whether to avoid a boss' nuke, or to give yourself more time to summon your herc). If you run too far from your pet, it warps back to you. Since the eldergoth stops to attack ~7m further than the kowlin, that means you can run 7m further back while pulling. The additional 7m translates into an extra second on most mobs, which can easily be the difference between not getting nuked, or getting your herc's buffs up.

and prevents ranged mobs from kting you into other mobs since it also uses ranged attacks.

I'm still playing around with trying to find a good tactic for kiting mobs. The problem with using a ranged attack is that you have to turn off all the skills, including aggro skills. This severely limits the additional damage you and your squad members can do. It is definitely convenient, especially in tight quarters where you absolutely cannot risk having a runner, or if you're soloing. But if someone pulls aggro from the pet, the mob will run around again. So you're trading one risk (that the mob will run when first pulled) for a big disadvantage (everyone has to reduce their DPS) and another risk (mob will run if someone pulls aggro off your pet).

I suspect you're just better off hitting the runner with a stun or freeze so it stays put, and unloading with all the aggro skills and nukes. Or letting an archer or wizard tank just that mob (they can pull aggro off even a barb, so should have no problem holding aggro). But like I said, I'm still trying out different ways to deal with these.

I looked into those mobs actually. I don't know about the asgard plumpfish, but if they're anything like celestial plumpfish, they wouldn't be pleasant to grind on. The other mobs all seem to be level 87-89, which is a bit too high.

Sea of Isolation.

Aniella - Harshlands wrote: »

The best lure pet are kitty and kowlin, they do much damage and are fast, other pets sux. i don't have time to use tank pet, take to long time to kill mobs with tank pet.

You say this, than you make this post????

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=452612

Your reply may explain the problem you describe on your post.