OK...Defence Lv+ and Attack Lv+

prof · September 2009

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not sure you've been in DT before but those dragon guards are physical mobs. The magic mobs does 60%-70% water debuff. To be able to take all of them requires you to have high pdef and high mdef. It's hard, but with enough money you can acquire high hp, high mdef, pdef, and attack. Being stunned is a problem in pvp and if you are ganked nothing will save your behind. But having the ability to take hits both magic and physical hits while still killing them all off is no easy task. Btw those mermaids hit as hard as a high lvl wizard with undine strike. Try having 4 of them on you plus a the dragon that hits as hard as a high lvl bm and see if you can survive them.

i've never been? i've zhenned in there you dolt. you're bringing pve into things like it matters. "i can tank 4 mobs". guess what? so can a lot of people. but i can guarantee you if deceptistar here got rid of all of her hp and pdef stones, she'd be crushed.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

These Lv+ shards are what the gem merchant combines as the highest shard available in his shop. Say if a garnet gem adds way more than 1% damage on a weapon, then would this outrageous price only be because the stats remain the same whether put on a weapon or armour?

*squeezes Doc out the window* >>

i want to see your gears, lol b:surrender

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2009

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well there isn't any other way to refine your armor to add more damage.

Adding +Attack Level to a weapon is certainly a huge waste as even on a +12 Warsoul Bow +1 attack level only adds as much damage as about a Beautiful Garnet Shard.

I feel scammed D=

prof wrote: »

i've never been? i've zhenned in there you dolt. you're bringing pve into things like it matters. "i can tank 4 mobs". guess what? so can a lot of people. but i can guarantee you if deceptistar here got rid of all of her hp and pdef stones, she'd be crushed.

i think everybody would be crushed if they had shardless unrefined gear >.> with the exception of barb surviving a tad bit longer. I know a good wad of BMs and barbs that would get crushed without shards in PvE FB89, FB99, <.<
What your saying is on the same lvl as:

"That lv9x is good at PvP? I can guarantee theyll get killed more often if you make them wear lv50 gear!" (duh, everybody will)
"What that barb tanks good in TT3-x? I can guarantee he'll get crushed without heals" (duh, everybody will)
"What hes a really patient person? I can guarantee he will get pissed if i set their house on fire!" (double duh, everybody will)

NO. SH*T. SHERLOCK.b:sweat
thats why pple take things called preventive measures to insure those booboo's DONT happen, whether it be sharding or just plain strategical planning. You might as well just said if my PC broke mid fight Id get crushed.

i want to see your gears, lol b:surrender

i rarely parade around in my 90s gear.

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary · September 2009

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i rarely parade around in my 90s gear.

Yet you parade in bondage clothing when in instances b:shocked

AkioHikaru - Sanctuary · September 2009

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

A garnet gem would have added alot more than 1% damage

I totally agree...

The gem is higher than garnet, which takes 6 to make a higher grade..then 6 of those to make the attack lvl 1. Thinking that this tiger gem would be much stronger...I took a gamble to test it out.

Meh, I should have done my research before hand..but as Star pointed out its confusing with all the different posts about it.

pand0ra · September 2009

Ok so from what I understand the attack lvl +1 = 1% of TOTAL attack

So, if someone has a magic attack of 5900-6800 (UNbuffed..)

5900 x 1% = 59

Beautiful sapphire shard = 20 m.att
Flawless = 25 m.att
Immaculate = 32 m.att
Perfect = 40 m.att

Wouldnt the attack lvl shard be better ?

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary · September 2009

pand0ra wrote: »

Ok so from what I understand the attack lvl +1 = 1% of TOTAL attack

So, if someone has a magic attack of 5900-6800 (UNbuffed..)

5900 x 1% = 59

Beautiful sapphire shard = 20 m.att
Flawless = 25 m.att
Immaculate = 32 m.att
Perfect = 40 m.att

Wouldnt the attack lvl shard be better ?

It is actually 1% of total DMG and not attack stats. Also the weapon attacked are magnified by your skills. Something like 20 mattack gem will give you 100-150 more m. attack in stats.

Legerity - Sanctuary · September 2009

pand0ra wrote: »

Ok so from what I understand the attack lvl +1 = 1% of TOTAL attack

So, if someone has a magic attack of 5900-6800 (UNbuffed..)

5900 x 1% = 59

Beautiful sapphire shard = 20 m.att
Flawless = 25 m.att
Immaculate = 32 m.att
Perfect = 40 m.att

Wouldnt the attack lvl shard be better ?

I'm very sure the +m.att shards are for m.att and the attack lvl +1 shards are for a 1% addition to the final damage being dealt.

You cannot directly compare a m.attack shard and an attack level shard. You'd have to compute the final damage from the +m.att to make any reasonable comparisons.

pand0ra · September 2009

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is actually 1% of total DMG and not attack stats. Also the weapon attacked are magnified by your skills. Something like 20 mattack gem will give you 100-150 more m. attack in stats.

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm very sure the +m.att shards are for m.att and the attack lvl +1 shards are for a 1% addition to the final damage being dealt.

You cannot directly compare a m.attack shard and an attack level shard. You'd have to compute the final damage from the +m.att to make any reasonable comparisons.

I stand corrected.. b:surrender

SultryShade - Dreamweaver · September 2009

Well I don't know how things actually work but at some point back in the early days of sanctuary I remember someone was going on about attack and defense levels (don't remember if it was an official), but from what they were saying it sounded like basically if you were level 100, and got attack level +1, you could hit a mob or player as if you were a lvl 101, meaning any damage reduction due to level between a level 100 and level 100 would no longer exist. This being the case if you had +50 attack level from something like a warsoul, at level 100 you should suffer no damage reduction when fighting any TT boss or world boss (assuming of course the ? level is actually 150). This obviously was the explanation before anyone could actually get any attack level stuff, so I don't know if its true or not, just figured I'd toss it out there for you people who actually care to debate over it.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · September 2009

Your total attack is your weapon attack times some multiplier based off your mastery and in my case dexterity. I'm pure dex and do about 5 times more damage than my weapon attack. A pure vit bm or cleric would still do like 3 or 4 times your weapon attack

That means a beaut shard in your weapon is adding like 70 damage (for me it would be more than 100).

prof · September 2009

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

I feel scammed D=

i think everybody would be crushed if they had shardless unrefined gear >.> with the exception of barb surviving a tad bit longer. I know a good wad of BMs and barbs that would get crushed without shards in PvE FB89, FB99, <.<
What your saying is on the same lvl as:

"That lv9x is good at PvP? I can guarantee theyll get killed more often if you make them wear lv50 gear!" (duh, everybody will)
"What that barb tanks good in TT3-x? I can guarantee he'll get crushed without heals" (duh, everybody will)
"What hes a really patient person? I can guarantee he will get pissed if i set their house on fire!" (double duh, everybody will)

NO. SH*T. SHERLOCK.b:sweat
thats why pple take things called preventive measures to insure those booboo's DONT happen, whether it be sharding or just plain strategical planning. You might as well just said if my PC broke mid fight Id get crushed.

i rarely parade around in my 90s gear.

i think you misunderstand me. i said a supporters role is to survive(duh). but he said that if this were about anyone else he would agree, but suggested that you could pull it off(meaning, you could survive this 5 mob attack with attack stones, instead of hp/pdef), because your gears are so good. not a word about refines.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2009

SultryShade - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well I don't know how things actually work but at some point back in the early days of sanctuary I remember someone was going on about attack and defense levels (don't remember if it was an official), but from what they were saying it sounded like basically if you were level 100, and got attack level +1, you could hit a mob or player as if you were a lvl 101, meaning any damage reduction due to level between a level 100 and level 100 would no longer exist. This being the case if you had +50 attack level from something like a warsoul, at level 100 you should suffer no damage reduction when fighting any TT boss or world boss (assuming of course the ? level is actually 150). This obviously was the explanation before anyone could actually get any attack level stuff, so I don't know if its true or not, just figured I'd toss it out there for you people who actually care to debate over it.

I heard of that somewhere too.
So are the attack lv+1 theory is getting somewhat clearer.

Altho im still confused about the def Lv+. If the same theory applies with overall %, the % of def multipled with x% of defLv (if its really 1% per stone), it doesnt seem much useful unless your a BM or barb who has reached def point with minimal returns say like 13k+ DEF to start out with? Like it seems the mages would be better off with perfects or imcomparible gems.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2009

prof wrote: »

i think you misunderstand me. i said a supporters role is to survive(duh). but he said that if this were about anyone else he would agree, but suggested that you could pull it off(meaning, you could survive this 5 mob attack with attack stones, instead of hp/pdef), because your gears are so good. not a word about refines.

i have no attack stones cept in my weapons >_>

Ahira - Lost City · September 2009

Havent read the whole thread but I wouldnt bother with these stones as there's not really much point unless they're stacked. If I was going to use them personally I would only use attack ones ~maybe in half my armor- not in my weapon as its not as good as a regular mag attack shard. This will let you supplement your magic attack which you could only previously do from weapon refine/shard. Defence ones I would definitely not use. Phys shards should be better and % increases in mag defence wont make a huge difference as clerics should have a high magic defence already I suppose.

Just going on my assumptions on how these attack/defence levels work tho! ^^

Michael_Dark - Lost City · September 2009

I'd like to see the option of cutting these at jewelcraftsman. 1 diamond of tiger is made with 6 drakeflame stones... I would be happy to take a loss while cutting. Give me 3 or 4 back, and I'd be much happier.

SultryShade - Dreamweaver · September 2009

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

I'd like to see the option of cutting these at jewelcraftsman. 1 diamond of tiger is made with 6 drakeflame stones... I would be happy to take a loss while cutting. Give me 3 or 4 back, and I'd be much happier.

Now there is a good idea, one that probably won't happen, but I like the idea.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2009

note;
-my attack is pretty high to start off with

with that said i tried the diff. cyclone in Eden with blessing (+10) on and off
Assuming its % of final attack, the diff. it gave my cyclone with no blessing 9k-11k, and with blessing 13k-16k (did not count crits)

Gyonax - Heavens Tear · September 2009

See if you guys can make sense out of these:

#1 my physical defense in two-legged form with no buffs:

#2 my physical defense when a +1 def. gem was added.

Do these numbers look right? I mean shouldn't the physical def. number and "attacks will be reduced by #" be higher in the second picture than the first picture?

Legerity - Sanctuary · September 2009

Gyonax - Heavens Tear wrote: »

See if you guys can make sense out of these:

#1 my physical defense in two-legged form with no buffs:

#2 my physical defense when a +1 def. gem was added.

Do these numbers look right? I mean shouldn't the physical def. number and "attacks will be reduced by #" be higher in the second picture than the first picture?

You might want to retake those pictures using the same conditions. It looks like a phys def buff wore off or something as there's a 3k pdef difference.

Gyonax - Heavens Tear · September 2009

Ok, I'm sorry b:surrender I made a mistake... the first picture was taken in tiger form. Sorry.

So since I don't want to purge the first gem, I just added a second one and took a third screenshot:

As you can see, the stats look exactly the same as the second screenshot, only thing changed was the Defense Lv. number.

Stickygreen - Heavens Tear · September 2009

def/ att level isnt worth it IMO.

lets say. your level 99, with helm/boots/plate/legging/gloves/cape 4 socket, with your wep 2 socket. thats up to28% increase attack. now, you may think "WOW, 28% more damage!fjsaoifjposaidu hacks!"

not really. maybe for pve, but pvp. your damage is nerfed 75% already... think of what you could do with 28 citrine gems instead of att/def level? IMO 28 x 115 hp +35% from level 11 hp buff > att/def level. it doesnt just > it, it /**** it.

Gyonax - Heavens Tear · September 2009

There's a formula that calculates the damage received as a percentage of your hp comparing +10 vit stones and +1 def. stones.

The conclusion was that which to use depends on your class and hp.

Bottom line is that use +1 def stones if your self-buffed hp is above the following threshold for each class:

barb: 17,000
bm: 15,000
archer: 13,000
veno: 12,000
cleric and wiz: 10,000

Otherwise it is better to use +10 vit stones.

Another way to look at it is that if you have high refinement, then use +1 def. stones, if not, use +vit.

DraukaGrissa - Sanctuary · September 2009

..........

DraukaGrissa - Sanctuary · September 2009

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

oh god this thing is like %channeling gear then. If you dont stack it, its worth shat and does shat......

Yep...I didn't notice a difference in the caves.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · September 2009

Gyonax - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There's a formula that calculates the damage received as a percentage of your hp comparing +10 vit stones and +1 def. stones.

The conclusion was that which to use depends on your class and hp.

Bottom line is that use +1 def stones if your self-buffed hp is above the following threshold for each class:

barb: 17,000
bm: 15,000
archer: 13,000
veno: 12,000
cleric and wiz: 10,000

Otherwise it is better to use +10 vit stones.

Another way to look at it is that if you have high refinement, then use +1 def. stones, if not, use +vit.

LOL >.>...
So I guess you DO have to reach the point of minimal returns on the HP or pdef stats which ever your focusing on, for these shards to actually make a diff. With that said I wonder what Akios dmg goes for here on base.. if indeed the diff. is only after you reach your point of diminishing returns:

AkioHikaru - Sanctuary wrote: »

I put the tiger gem (+1 attack lvl) in my lunar bow...honestly I'm pretty sure its a waste of my 1 socket. 1% added attack just doesn't make much of a difference. If I crit 20,000 its only 200 extra damage.

I am curious what effect, if any, I would have with two gems.

Would it make a bigger diff. if your attack is above 10k??

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · September 2009

Weapon: TT100 XBow +12 http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14892
Base weapon damage: 859-2004 : average = 1432
+12 Refine: +900
2 Heavenly Lord Rings: 2 * 110 damage = +220 (these have more weapon damage than lunar rings)
level 100 character = +100

Total weapon attack with no gems: 2652

Your total damage is a fixed multiple of your weapon attack based on stats and mastery.

2652 with 2 Attack level + 1
2652 -> 2705 (2% more damage)

This is the same as it would be with 2 flawless garnet
2652 with 2 flawless garnet (+25 each)
2652 -> 2702

Put in 2 garnet gems though (+75 each)
2652 -> 2802 (6% more damage)

I would compare using a +12 warsoul but warsoul STARTS with +50 attack level and so you would just go from +50 -> +52 which is only +1.3% more damage.

The moral: DONT add +Attack Level gems to your weapon! At BEST they are only as good as a flawless, for more realistic weapons they will be much worse.

_Fuzz_ - Lost City · October 2010

att/deff lvl shards are useless unless highly stacked like -chan.

say you do get a atk lvl of +50, thats only +50% of your base dmg. doesn;t sound bad but you really become a glass cannon by time you get enough stones to make it count.

say you get +50 deff. thats +50% of your base deff's. . . . anyone remember what diminishing returns are, or are everyone Oracle'd - Hyper noobs these days?

the point is simple. if your gonna put that high lvl of shards in your armor, just go w/ dmg shards in your weapon (garnet/saphire) and vit stones in armor.

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

I guess end game barb with high refines and all def stones would be pretty invulnerable, lemme calc that xD

Edit: I guess nobody can kick his ***:

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=511227c765f0c6fd

Deora - Lost City · October 2010

Epic Necro Batman and that isn't how it works... game nicely explained something for once... its just the difference between attacker attack level and damage takes defense level... it really is that simple b:surrender

Borsuc - Raging Tide · October 2010

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

I guess end game barb with high refines and all def stones would be pretty invulnerable, lemme calc that xD

Edit: I guess nobody can kick his ***:

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=080f7f7cfe34fa98

Triple sparked 5aps BM/sin can.

And you can put +atk shards in armor.

OK...Defence Lv+ and Attack Lv+

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