The Anniversary Packs is like Gambling?

Jer - Dreamweaver
Jer - Dreamweaver Posts: 215 Arc User
edited September 2009 in General Discussion
Isn't it like Gambling with your real money?Cause it cost $1 to buy the gambling chips aka gold then anniversary packs which gives random rewards? And under 18 play this game making it illegal?
Post edited by Jer - Dreamweaver on
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Comments

  • Belligero - Sanctuary
    Belligero - Sanctuary Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Yes...

    Any thing that involves chance is a gamble.

    Edit: By the way, ha...ha...ha.. >.>
    Belligero
  • Falls - Sanctuary
    Falls - Sanctuary Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    No, it is not gambling because the only party with a chance to win from these packs is PWE.

    InB4Lock.
  • Signako - Heavens Tear
    Signako - Heavens Tear Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Actually its not a gamble, because even if your luck sucks, you still get those cheap common lucky tokens.
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  • Kalutika - Heavens Tear
    Kalutika - Heavens Tear Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    It is not gambling as there is not IRL money pay off. Winning pixels is not like winning cash/REAL things.
  • Belligero - Sanctuary
    Belligero - Sanctuary Posts: 564 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    gamble:"to take a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome"

    Does not always have to be money. You pay in hopes of getting wings, lobster, or whatever you were aiming to get.
    Belligero
  • shlomo2
    shlomo2 Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Yes it could be considered gambling though it's not like "cash > process > cash or nothing". Even though I guess parents would rather uninstall the game than sue the gaming company. Oh yes if you tell here you're a TV pressman the game will go offline within 10 minutes.
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  • Accelerated - Sanctuary
    Accelerated - Sanctuary Posts: 1,048 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Jer - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Isn't it like Gambling with your real money?Cause it cost $1 to buy the gambling chips aka gold then anniversary packs which gives random rewards? And under 18 play this game making it illegal?
    Kalutika - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It is not gambling as there is not IRL money pay off. Winning pixels is not like winning cash/REAL things.

    lolwut?
    Gamble: to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.
    10chara
    Money is involved. It's irrelevant to what the stakes are, whether it's something in this plane of reality or in a virtual world. The point is that the cash shoppers are using money to take on these stakes to try to win "something".
    It is indeed gambling.
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  • Falls - Sanctuary
    Falls - Sanctuary Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Semantics, we should all know that he meant gambling in the legal sense.

    "And under 18 play this game making it illegal? "

    No, obviously not.

    (Additionally, I don't think under 18 year old's can buy Zen without some parental supervision to begin with.)
  • Kalutika - Heavens Tear
    Kalutika - Heavens Tear Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    So all p2p games are gambling, since you are paying money for the chance to play and maybe get good gear?

    Come on, be realistic. Ani packs are not gambling in the legal sense, and if you think they are... well I cannot post what I think you are, as I'd probably get banned.
  • _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary
    _DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,294 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Yes, yes it is indeed gambling b:victory

    It's just worded differently and presented in a different sense so that it bypasses being illegal. To answer your other question, no it's not illegal.
  • ChaosTears - Heavens Tear
    ChaosTears - Heavens Tear Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Its more of a lucky dip than gambling in the sense people are thinking of, since you always win
  • Foxx - Heavens Tear
    Foxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Id call it gambling, and it has that same appeal that gambling in RL does. (which PWI know full well and make maximum use of) Whats more I suspect that there are going to be a few people with maxes out credit cards in deep financial trouble as a direct result of it. (Just as gambling does to people in RL)

    Not that Im against gambling, I think its a case of the buyer beware. I just dont want to have to be forced to pick up the pieces when someone bankrupts themselves and their family over a game or a casino.

    When most of us have found other games, and PW has cheapened itself to becoming a contest of who has the bigger wallet only, Im guessing there are going to be a bunch of people asking themselves why they ever got sucked into parting with thousands of dollars.
  • Aldryami - Sanctuary
    Aldryami - Sanctuary Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    In a lucky dip you are still gambling the Buy In cost in the hope that you will win something worth more than or (at least) the same as that Buy In cost.

    My understanding is that Roulette is commonly acknowledged a losers game (the best possible odds being 49% success chance - so after a million games the House wins). The odds of getting something worth your 1 gold (presently approx 380 coins) from the anniv boxes seems exceedingly low. Its worse than Roulette. b:cry
  • Terraa - Lost City
    Terraa - Lost City Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Looking for legal recourse, OP? Or just trolling, since you've obviously: not done your homework; don't seem to care to; are a tool. Criteria met, let's continue.

    You're buying the anniversary pack. The pack includes at minimum, 15 lucky tokens, which the PWI developers must value at $1. As well, the pack includes bonus chances to attain rarer tokens, or scrolls, or other items. You're not gambling because in any way the die is thrown, you're getting in a legal sense, your money's worth. Feel like 15 lucky tokens aren't worth $1? Don't buy them. I feel the same way about the theater: $9.50 for a potential chance at a great movie. However, I don't go rioting when Valkyrie turned out to be worth less than the change in my pocket from the $10 bill I spent. Boy did I learn my lesson: stay away from Tom Cruise movies. Regardless of my feelings, the theaters obviously value the movie at $9.50 a ticket, and thus are charging as such. Can't please everybody, but they can't very well sell me a ticket for 50 cents just because I feel that's what it's worth, now can they?
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  • Davechapelle - Sanctuary
    Davechapelle - Sanctuary Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Kalutika - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So all p2p games are gambling, since you are paying money for the chance to play and maybe get good gear?

    Come on, be realistic. Ani packs are not gambling in the legal sense, and if you think they are... well I cannot post what I think you are, as I'd probably get banned.

    no that's called paying for a service. There is no chance involved. You pay and you play not you pay for the chance to play. Nice try...EPIC FAIL!
  • cobraj
    cobraj Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Terraa - Lost City wrote: »
    Looking for legal recourse, OP? Or just trolling, since you've obviously: not done your homework; don't seem to care to; are a tool. Criteria met, let's continue.

    You're buying the anniversary pack. The pack includes at minimum, 15 lucky tokens, which the PWI developers must value at $1. As well, the pack includes bonus chances to attain rarer tokens, or scrolls, or other items. You're not gambling because in any way the die is thrown, you're getting in a legal sense, your money's worth. Feel like 15 lucky tokens aren't worth $1? Don't buy them. I feel the same way about the theater: $9.50 for a potential chance at a great movie. However, I don't go rioting when Valkyrie turned out to be worth less than the change in my pocket from the $10 bill I spent. Boy did I learn my lesson: stay away from Tom Cruise movies. Regardless of my feelings, the theaters obviously value the movie at $9.50 a ticket, and thus are charging as such. Can't please everybody, but they can't very well sell me a ticket for 50 cents just because I feel that's what it's worth, now can they?

    Exactly,thank you.I was thinking of something similar but was going to use a Burger King example instead,either way you say it,I agree,no it is not gambling.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    its not really gambling you can buy said gold with coins. xD
    which isn't the use of real money. ^.^
    but if that is considered gambling does that mean we all gamble when we kill a monster? b:shocked
    it cost you X number of attacks to kill said monster which has a chance to drop Y.

    (>.<) now me am confoosed xD
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  • andracil
    andracil Posts: 2,949 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Wow, Terraa really kicked behind here... o_O
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  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    In a sense it's gambling as far as what you're doing, since it's a game of chance and that's all gambling is. Even doing something with 99.999999% odds of getting the big payoff is still a gamble because there's the still the element of chance.

    That said, nothing about gambling for people of any age is illegal, what is illegal is entering a casino floor under the age of 18 without a parent/guardian (but I wouldn't recommend it much even though you can, casinos don't look favorably on it at all), playing a lottery, or entering another place that requires a gaming license such as a horse track without a parent/guardian. Playing the games themselves is 100% legal for a kid to do, but they're not allowed to purchase the item from the gaming establishment (keno ticket you put money on, horse race ticket, casino chips, slot machine slugs, slot card, etc) aren't allowed to cash out, and still need parental approval. The trick here though is, a casino won't let you do it because it's too close to the line for them, so you would have to play a casino game off a casino floor. That leaves you states like Nevada where slot machines are in gas stations, or games like Keno which are in restaurants. If it helps, think of it as someone sitting at a gas station slot machine or video poker with their kid on their lap, letting it push the buttons or pull the lever.

    This is why it's legal for someone to buy a lottery ticket and then let their kid pick the numbers. Currency itself has to be handled by people above the age of 18, but any other part of it is legal. If this weren't the case places like Chuckee Cheese (or whatever it's called) would be shut down as some of their games are much closer to gambling than anniversary packs are.

    Additionally, there's no legal PWE supported/condoned method to convert the results of the packs back into cash.
  • DawnRazor - Lost City
    DawnRazor - Lost City Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Belligero - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yes...

    Any thing that involves chance is a gamble.

    Edit: By the way, ha...ha...ha.. >.>

    Yes it is gambling.

    And secondly if it's gambling it should be regulated like gambling.
    PWI is treading a fine line. Theres a few reporters i know would love a juicy story like this.

    MMo's making 1000s of dollars off addicted child gamblers????

    Would make edited albums for lyric content small fry. Lol.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    The line they're treading is no different than the one arcades tread that let you trade in 50,000 tickets you won off skeeball, hitting a ball in a batting cage, dropping coins down a thing to make it fall off a ledge, pachinko, etc (or whatever games kids play in arcades these days... I can't believe I just said that, I feel old now) for an xbox, stuffed bear, or anything else.

    In short, they're not. It can't be gambling in the sense you're thinking of because there's no conversion to change the results back into dollars (or your currency of choice).
  • DawnRazor - Lost City
    DawnRazor - Lost City Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    The line they're treading is no different than the one arcades tread that let you trade in 50,000 tickets you won off skeeball, hitting a ball in a batting cage, dropping coins down a thing to make it fall off a ledge, pachinko, etc (or whatever games kids play in arcades these days... I can't believe I just said that, I feel old now) for an xbox, stuffed bear, or anything else.

    In short, they're not. It can't be gambling in the sense you're thinking of because there's no conversion to change the results back into dollars (or your currency of choice).

    Any spending of irl currency for a possible reward is gambling. So comes under gaming commission. Whether they like that fact or not. PWI is based in USA, and tbh the senators there are fickle. But wouldn't need much of a push to have em raging lol. Especially if its seen that kids are being exploited, which to be honest, they are.


    And lol, you never know who is trolling these forums, and what job they have rofl.
  • Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear
    Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Brael - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    In short, they're not. It can't be gambling in the sense you're thinking of because there's no conversion to change the results back into dollars (or your currency of choice).

    And you also cannot lose, so basically you are buying 15 lucky tokens with the chance to win something rare instead.

    Granted if people want to be anal it can be called gambling but not in the sense of casino's, betting on sports etc
    Any spending of irl currency for a possible reward is gambling. So comes under gaming commission

    Its not a possible reward, its a 100% guaranteed reward, big differance
  • DawnRazor - Lost City
    DawnRazor - Lost City Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And you also cannot lose, so basically you are buying 15 lucky tokens with the chance to win something rare instead.

    Granted if people want to be anal it can be called gambling but not in the sense of casino's, betting on sports etc



    Its not a possible reward, its a 100% guaranteed reward, big differance

    The law is always anal.
    Spending irl cash on a fictitious object for gain = gambling.
    No different to betting.
  • Brael - Dreamweaver
    Brael - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,430 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    DawnRazor - Lost City wrote: »
    Any spending of irl currency for a possible reward is gambling. So comes under gaming commission. Whether they like that fact or not. PWI is based in USA, and tbh the senators there are fickle. But wouldn't need much of a push to have em raging lol. Especially if its seen that kids are being exploited, which to be honest, they are.


    And lol, you never know who is trolling these forums, and what job they have rofl.

    By your logic, a 10 year old buying a bottle of Pepsi to win an itunes download (or whatever company did that) is gambling and should fall under the gaming commission. Since the marketing for that promo also happened to target kids you could call it child exploitation using your own definition. It's not. Your understanding of it is off. Also, in case that's not good enough for you, if you're under 18 you need the permission from your parent/guardian to create an account, if the kid doesn't have it it's the kid's legal issue, opening them up for a counter suit (or rather the kids parent/guardian). This extends to spending money on the game, it's parent approved.

    Finally, for a closer analogy than the above one. Magic the Gathering cards (or any other trading card game) cost money to buy and you get a random reward. That's just as much gambling as this is, oh and guess what? Those games are targeted at kids, played by kids, and legally bought by kids with no issues. In short, your definition is off and there's quite a bit of precedent to support my point of view.
  • Calliope - Heavens Tear
    Calliope - Heavens Tear Posts: 328 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    The definition some people are trying to use for "gambling" here would also cover such diverse (and legal) activities as buying or selling any kind of insurance, buying/selling stock options, buying raffle tickets, etc. Last I checked, it was actually legal to "bet" that your home wouldn't catch on fire.

    Plus, people are getting outraged, not on their own behalf, but on the behalf of some hypothetical children who don't seem to mind spending their allowance on video games. If they're not your kids, then it's none of your business. If they are your kids, use this to teach them a lesson about financial responsibility and gambling.

    Or you could post about how PWI is definitely breaking the law now, yup yup. It's true because you want it to be!
  • Aadi - Lost City
    Aadi - Lost City Posts: 4,449 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Calliope - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It's true because you want it to be!

    This is the motto of 95% of people on the PWI forums.
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  • Terraa - Lost City
    Terraa - Lost City Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Calliope - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Plus, people are getting outraged, not on their own behalf, but on the behalf of some hypothetical children who don't seem to mind spending their allowance on video games.

    Actually, I believe they are enraged on their own behalf, likely because they feel cheated that luck didn't roll on their side, and they spent (oh goodness!) $15 and didn't get a best luck token. These people are hurt, but instead of logically analyzing like adults, and illuminating the fact that they got what they paid for and nothing more while other people seem to be lucky and are making bank off of the, at minimum, 75million in coins every time the Duke shouts because it seems to hurt them. However, because there's really nothing they can do about it without looking like a lumbering child with regard to complaining about the anniversary packs in the sense that they exist, they must concur with theories that could potentially exist, just not on Earth but rather in the Land of Boogertree.

    So now we have even more endless rants about the unfairness of this game which is completely free to play in the first place, and more forum spam, and unfortunately an even uglier showing of the player-base day by day. I mean the OP actually started another thread shortly after he started this one because he was shut down THAT fast. This isn't fair to any of us. This thread wasn't even locked yet, and already he's spitting out more inane posts that incite even more hate in me. O', just one of these days I'd like someone to post a complaint that actually had tangible plot!
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  • Foxx - Heavens Tear
    Foxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Why are so many people denying that its gambling "because its legal"? I dont think the legality issue is actually being argued by anyone. Im sure PWI have all their bases covered on that score.

    However I'm sure that there would be many who would like to make it illegal when the hear how much money some people have been suckered into spending on it. (thousands?)

    Exactly the same way as people want to close down RL gambling because of the ruin it causes certain mentally challenged individuals (and their families).

    Disclaimer: I approve of gambling personally. If someone is stupid enough to lose their money so be it. I just happen to be able to see the other sides point of view.
  • shlomo2
    shlomo2 Posts: 105 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    I think it IS worth discussing it. I think law must never be interpreted without considering time and society.

    In terms of law it's very hard to successfully compare RL gaambling to these boxes. But think about... Most people discussing the matter are 18+ I guess. Would you buy 3 boxes and get a 5m+ item wouldn't you try your luck again someday even if never again in this game? I think yes, it's human nature!!! Now think about the kids here... They ask their parents for zen not for a chance of getting such expensive items. They ask their parents for zen becaue there's some stunning event they must not miss! The parent ends up allowing it. And what if the kid who was granted 30 dollars get really nice rewards? Will the kid, years later, accept playing russian roulette for being self confident after being "lucky" with the "harmless" boxes???



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