How Sage can be better than Demon (PvP)
I have learned a few things about Sage/Demon and was hoping for some feedback. It seems to me that support for Demon is overblown and I worry that by choosing the Demon path I will be basing my decision on an unjustified consensus.
It is my assumption that much of the support for Demon comes from arguments using skills that are not feasibly attainable to the common player. The average player will have Take Aim, Blazing Arrow, Frost Arrow, Spark and Chi.
Let's take a look at our skill options...
TAKE AIM
It has been shown that with a reasonable level 90 weapon Take Aim is superior to Deadly Shot.
With the Sage version you get 500% damage @ 3.0s cast time and with Demon you get 400% damage @ 2.5 second cast time.
I have heard the argument that the reduced cast time is better. However can you not stop the Sage Take Aim shot 2.5 seconds into casting it and achieve at least 400% damage?
It is my understanding that this is the case rendering the argument for Demon invalid.
FROST ARROW
With Sage Frost Arrow becoming a magic attack it opens up the possibility of defeating a charmed barb.
Where as the Demon version gives you a 20% chance to gain 35 chi; essentially useless in PVP.
This comparison should be a no brainier.
SPARK
Demon Spark will not decrease the casting time of skills. The offensive advantage of Demon Spark is ineffective against Barbs and BM's.
Sage Spark is the exact same except instead of increased attack speed you gain a 25% reduction in damage taken.
This is a tad harder to compare as each individual will have a different set of goals. Demon is better if you plan on using normal attacks. Demon would be very effective when fighting an arcane class, and perhaps a light armor class if you are built for attack speed.
BLAZING ARROW
With Sage you gain a permanent 60% additional fire damage to any shot that takes an arrow, this includes skills.
With Demon you gain 70% for 20 seconds but then after that is reduced to 50%.
This is a hard comparison to make. Considering all the time limited genie skills, spark, and pots that you need to use before attacking someone, would you really have the time to recast blazing arrow?
CHI
With Sage you get 50 chi, with Demon your opponent loses 50 chi.
I would prefer to have the chi.
When you compare the entire skill list side by side Demon is the better choice. However, unless you have a spare 900 million coins, or an extra 14 hours a day to farm FB99 it is not practical to compare these two options this way.
An unbiased assessment of these two options, based on the information presented, should convince people that for certain players Sage is considerably better than Demon.
My assessment can be falsified by presenting evidence that additional skills can be obtained by the average player (2 hours a day playtime, limited funds) and should be taken into consideration.
I have underlined the key elements to my argument that have been most commonly disputed.
It is my assumption that much of the support for Demon comes from arguments using skills that are not feasibly attainable to the common player. The average player will have Take Aim, Blazing Arrow, Frost Arrow, Spark and Chi.
Let's take a look at our skill options...
TAKE AIM
It has been shown that with a reasonable level 90 weapon Take Aim is superior to Deadly Shot.
With the Sage version you get 500% damage @ 3.0s cast time and with Demon you get 400% damage @ 2.5 second cast time.
I have heard the argument that the reduced cast time is better. However can you not stop the Sage Take Aim shot 2.5 seconds into casting it and achieve at least 400% damage?
It is my understanding that this is the case rendering the argument for Demon invalid.
FROST ARROW
With Sage Frost Arrow becoming a magic attack it opens up the possibility of defeating a charmed barb.
Where as the Demon version gives you a 20% chance to gain 35 chi; essentially useless in PVP.
This comparison should be a no brainier.
SPARK
Demon Spark will not decrease the casting time of skills. The offensive advantage of Demon Spark is ineffective against Barbs and BM's.
Sage Spark is the exact same except instead of increased attack speed you gain a 25% reduction in damage taken.
This is a tad harder to compare as each individual will have a different set of goals. Demon is better if you plan on using normal attacks. Demon would be very effective when fighting an arcane class, and perhaps a light armor class if you are built for attack speed.
BLAZING ARROW
With Sage you gain a permanent 60% additional fire damage to any shot that takes an arrow, this includes skills.
With Demon you gain 70% for 20 seconds but then after that is reduced to 50%.
This is a hard comparison to make. Considering all the time limited genie skills, spark, and pots that you need to use before attacking someone, would you really have the time to recast blazing arrow?
CHI
With Sage you get 50 chi, with Demon your opponent loses 50 chi.
I would prefer to have the chi.
When you compare the entire skill list side by side Demon is the better choice. However, unless you have a spare 900 million coins, or an extra 14 hours a day to farm FB99 it is not practical to compare these two options this way.
An unbiased assessment of these two options, based on the information presented, should convince people that for certain players Sage is considerably better than Demon.
My assessment can be falsified by presenting evidence that additional skills can be obtained by the average player (2 hours a day playtime, limited funds) and should be taken into consideration.
I have underlined the key elements to my argument that have been most commonly disputed.
Post edited by nelanther on
0
Comments
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I have learned a few things about Sage/Demon and was hoping for some feedback. It seems to me that support for Demon is overblown and I worry that by choosing the Demon path I will be basing my decision on an unjustified consensus.
It is my assumption that much of the support for Demon comes from arguments using skills that are not feasibly attainable to the common player. The average player will have Take Aim, Blazing Arrow, Frost Arrow, Spark and Chi.
Let's take a look at our skill options...
TAKE AIM
It has been shown that with a reasonable level 90 weapon Take Aim is superior to Deadly Shot.
With the Sage version you get 500% damage @ 3.0s cast time and with Demon you get 400% damage @ 2.5 second cast time.
I have heard the argument that the reduced cast time is better. However can you not stop the Sage Take Aim shot 2.5 seconds into casting it and achieve at least 400% damage?
It is my understanding that this is the case rendering the argument for Demon invalid.
FROST ARROW
With Sage Frost Arrow becoming a magic attack it opens up the possibility of defeating a charmed barb.
Where as the Demon version gives you a 20% chance to gain 35 chi; essentially useless in PVP.
This comparison should be a no brainier.
SPARK
Demon Spark will not decrease the casting time of skills. The offensive advantage of Demon Spark is ineffective against Barbs and BM's.
Sage Spark is the exact same except instead of increased attack speed you gain a 25% reduction in damage taken.
This is a tad harder to compare as each individual will have a different set of goals. Demon is better if you plan on using normal attacks. Demon would be very effective when fighting an arcane class, and perhaps a light armor class if you are built for attack speed.
BLAZING ARROW
With Sage you gain a permanent 60% additional fire damage to any shot that takes an arrow, this includes skills.
With Demon you gain 70% for 20 seconds but then after that is reduced to 50%.
This is a hard comparison to make. Considering all the time limited genie skills, spark, and pots that you need to use before attacking someone, would you really have the time to recast blazing arrow?
CHI
With Sage you get 50 chi, with Demon your opponent loses 50 chi.
I would prefer to have the chi.
When you compare the entire skill list side by side Demon is the better choice. However, unless you have a spare 900 million coins, or an extra 14 hours a day to farm FB99 it is not practical to compare these two options this way.
An unbiased assessment of these two options, based on the information presented, should convince people that for certain players Sage is considerably better than Demon.
My assessment can be falsified by presenting evidence that additional skills can be obtained by the average player (2 hours a day playtime, limited funds) and should be taken into consideration.
I have underlined the key elements to my argument that have been most commonly disputed.
Take Aim:
Can you actually prove a linear relationship b/w time taken to charge and the increase in damage? Until you can prove that, your point of letting it go at 2.5s and achieving 400% if not greater is void also.
Frost Arrow:
While I do agree having an extra elemental attack is good, I do not think frost arrow would be any more useful because it most likely will only be used as an opening elemental skill on HA because FA suffers 50% penalty at fragility range.
Blazing Arrows:
Negligible.
Spark:
When the average level of the servers reaches 90+ and almost all who PvP or participate in TW are well geared and charmed, attack speed and crit is all an Archer has to save them from other classes that shine much more at EG. Without attack speed or crit, there will be an increasing difficulty to kill other classes as times pass. Robe Wizards are ridiculous and one would need both attack speed and crit to take them down. Crit is also needed for HAs and everything else. Demon spark outshines imo. (but then genies can cover the difference in both sparks i.e: relentless courage and wind shield)
Chi:
I prefer the chi also. However, I am not going to go sage just for this skill.
I guess my opinion on this issue is:
If you're here for the higher levels, you go demon. While the books are relatively hard to obtain, it still allows for any opportunity to obtain those demon books.
If you go sage just by analysing and comparing those 5 skills, then you have potenitally shut yourself off. You even admit that the demon skill set is better, but it is the difficulty in obtaining those books which is making you hesitant. Must I remind you that you cannot change Celestial Cultis? What happens when you go sage and half a year down, those skills become increasingly common? Well, congratulations because you have opted for the impatient path and it has paid off reasonably well until now.
All in all, it depends on what your aim is. Decide what you plan to do and then your choice will be much clearer.
And no, I do not have first hand experience. I am merely theorycrafting. Take that any way you want but I do hope you consider those points.0 -
I have only heard that a Sage Take Aim shot relseased @ 2.5 seconds is as powerful as a full charge Demon shot. Perhaps an actual Sage archer can chime in?
I have been in many battles where I could have taken advantage of an extra elemental attack. With AimLow you would have plenty of time for 3 elemental attacks plus an elemental opener.
Even if you could not take advantage of the elemental attack the Demon alternative is completey useless.
Now a character built for attack speed will actually be missing out on some great DEX gear that will lower their crit by 2% possibly more.
Additionally in order to take advantage of the extra crit from Demon you will need passive skills and/or stun and sharptooth.
It is a gamble I am taking assuming these skill will be out of reach for the remainder of time I plan on playing PW.
I do not plan on playing PW much after I hit 90. The road to level 100 is very long and not for players who can not dedicate serious time to the game.
I hope skills become more attainable in the near future. However when I hit 89 in a month or so I would bet that affordable skills, beyond thoes mentioned, will remain out of reach.
Anyone taking Demon into consideration should be aware that these amazing skills that Demon offers are not simply handed to you when you hit 89.0 -
I agree with everything you said(Provided you don't plan on getting past the mid 90s). This is precisely the reason why I went sage, school is starting and I'm only going to come online to chat and RPK when I feel like it. I could careless for TW as it proves nothing as an individual. It's all about the 1v1 or small group fights.
Take aim - A 2.5 second charge of sage take aim is almost, if not on par with a fully charged demon take aim. Also to add to the argument, the only time you would ever use take aim is if you're trying to bypass someones charm and why not take 500% over 400%? Most times you have more than 2.5 seconds to charge your take aim and sage gives you the option to.
Frost Arrow.. Almost useless, but still better than the demon version. You wouldn't really be able to place this into your pvp rotation. The metal debuff makes you not want to use a water move at all, plus it drains your chi which you need for other skills.
Blazing Arrow.. 60% constant > 70% for 20 seconds any day.
Triple spark.. I guess if you wanna kill squishies even faster then go with demon
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It's kinda my goal to find a way to take down a charmed barb 1 on 1. Since you are a sage archer you might be able to crtique this plan...
Tripple Spark
Chi Boost
Frenzy
Extreme Poison - done right before Thunder Blast hits
Thunder Blast
Aim Low - the next 3 attacks are freebies
Thunder Shock - barb charm ticks
Lightning Strike
Frost Arrow
Stun Arrow - activates shortly after aimlow deactivates
Normal Shot - to allow lightning strike to cool down
Lightning Strike - as the barb reaches you
obviously this would only work as a surprise attack.
this plan has worked well @ 8x (minus Frost Arrow), but a 9x barb is a different beast.
Thoughts?0 -
Of course, demon stunning arrow and/or sharpened tooth arrow can be very nice, and their critical hit boost from their passives can also be nice.
And, demon will have better mana regeneration in PvE.
In my opinion, Sage will not automatically be better than Demon -- only if you pick appropriate gear and use are careful in how you approach your battles will Sage be better. Demons can excel without such deliberation.0 -
At the end of the day, it's all up to the skill/gear of the player. Although gear tends to outweigh skill in this type of game.0
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89 with no other skills but the easy fb89 ones is really a toss up based on personal choices. once you start adding skills demon just gets more and more obvious.It's kinda my goal to find a way to take down a charmed barb 1 on 1. Since you are a sage archer you might be able to crtique this plan...
Tripple Spark
Chi Boost
Frenzy
Extreme Poison - done right before Thunder Blast hits
Thunder Blast
Aim Low - the next 3 attacks are freebies
Thunder Shock - barb charm ticks
Lightning Strike
Frost Arrow
Stun Arrow - activates shortly after aimlow deactivates
Normal Shot - to allow lightning strike to cool down
Lightning Strike - as the barb reaches you
obviously this would only work as a surprise attack.
this plan has worked well @ 8x (minus Frost Arrow), but a 9x barb is a different beast.
Thoughts?
Barbs aren't too bad with 399 chi and buffs. If they are fully buffed it's almost too hard to kill them. If they are just self buffed it's a lot easier.
I wouldn't use triple spark right away. Ideally, I would do something like this:
- Stun and kite, use lightning strike and keep max distance.
- Try to get the barb to around 60% then use sharptooth. Don't tick his heiro
- Make sure you have 399 chi and all your cooldowns are off.
- Stun then triple spark, fast take aim and then aim low.
Now you will have a barb with -16% hp and you have 10 seconds to kill him with triple spark.
- Extreme poison, Lightning strike, fast Take aim, Thunder shock, Thunderous blast, Lightning strike.
- If you get lucky and crit at least once they usually die.
A lot harder to do ingame but as long as you follow the idea that you want to triple spark when the barb is around 50% barbs become a bit less op. If you don't kill them because the barb isn't an idiot and uses turtle or top then you are out of chi and sol. Run or try to kite and build chi for some miracle0 -
The question is, are thoes additional skills attainable? If you play PW a few hours a week... well... I don't think so.
If an archer is set up for attack speed, then obviously the Demon FB89 skills are the way to go. However an archer set up this way is unlikely to ever win 1 on 1 against a Barb or BM as they will never get past the charm with normal shots.
Perhaps some Demon archers can chime in and tell us which of these additional skill that have obtained and what it took to get them.0 -
The question is, are thoes additional skills attainable? If you play PW a few hours a week... well... I don't think so.
If an archer is set up for attack speed, then obviously the Demon FB89 skills are the way to go. However an archer set up this way is unlikely to ever win 1 on 1 against a Barb or BM as they will never get past the charm with normal shots.
Perhaps some Demon archers can chime in and tell us which of these additional skill that have obtained and what it took to get them.
Well if you do cube as a daily getting skills is easy or if you do gv getting the other skills is also easy. If pw actually put events in this game that should be in this game you could almost get a skill a week just doing 1 event.0 -
...
It is a gamble I am taking assuming these skill will be out of reach for the remainder of time I plan on playing PW.
I do not plan on playing PW much after I hit 90. The road to level 100 is very long and not for players who can not dedicate serious time to the game.
I hope skills become more attainable in the near future. However when I hit 89 in a month or so I would bet that affordable skills, beyond thoes mentioned, will remain out of reach.
Anyone taking Demon into consideration should be aware that these amazing skills that Demon offers are not simply handed to you when you hit 89.
Well, that's why I didn'y fully argue to go demon, because you never stated your intention or duration of "stay" until then.
I believe you have the answer towards your Celestial Culti already. (and any others with similar intention/aims)0 -
Tempting to think I can get the skills. I seriously need to cut back my playtime. Even cube is probably too much a commitment. However if other people start getting the books easier then the prices will drop and I can just use coins. I will continue to keep an eye on the prices. If I could just get 3-4 Demon skills I would rather do that. But currently that is about 120+ mil coins, IF I can even find the skill in the auction.0
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ok so i haven't researched yet cus am not that high as to bother yet but,
i was thinking maybe?
sage archer with xbow (cus i like spamming skills and very rarely leave to regular attacks)
i have a high phys.def and genie skillset to help me take a shot to the face
so i plan on a skill spamming chi-eating high p.def low hp archer with as much dex as i can get after p.def modding using a naughty crossbow for higher spike/crit dmg
i am not really feeling the demon side i feel as though i crit enough lol only have 13% crit rate at moment aswell haha plus the increased attack speed is something i won't look at twice cus it really doesn't fit with my play style0 -
Let is put this out straight ... post 9x (sage or demon ) if u cant kill a barb 9x- u are a fail.
Its so easy, stun, metal, sharp, use grace wings, double spark and metal. Even charmed barbs cant stand the metal. They just fall like babies.By the power of the alt lord ....
I am ALT-MAN b:cool
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