FAC discussion thread.

Nah, if they want to go for FAC let them be. Just make sure they let others know about that so in a middle of a FB they don't suddenly say they only have level 1 revive right after a revive.

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary wrote: »

I kinda don't understand this FAC business. I've seen people with this Build (in terms of stats points) and those clerics are awesome with their expensive gear. Going at 5k hp, 6k pdef, and max attacking power. But these people also have maxed heals, purifies, and revive. So tell me again WHY a cleric that can spend millions of coins on maxing their gears and attack skills can NOT upgrade a measly heal and revive?

Look I know upgrading the heal skills would cost spirit points but this guide was written by a noobie who obviously never done rebirth. If they did they would know that you get about 400K sp each time you complete rebirth plus about 400k in coins not including mystical fragments, mirages, and possibly immaculate gems (worth millions). That's more than enough money and sp to max your skills. So why roll with only lvl 1 res? If you are afraid of people asking you to res them, then don't. It's simple isn't it. Make up some excuse or w/e, just don't revive. But that doesn't mean you can't max your res to 10 so you can help res your FRIEND. yes..i know it's a strange concept to help your friends in a time of need. But maybe you should give it a try. b:chuckle

From what I can see trying to focus all your money on only attack skills seems like something a poor and friendless person would do because you can only afford so much sp and money. I know...I poor too..b:sad

Full quote!

Fireblood - Harshlands wrote: »

http://www.rqclan.com/vids/stream/RQTheatre.html
Add that to the list b:cute.

oh god pandora b:avoid

Lenyel - Harshlands wrote: »

IWhat i meant is that Clerics potentially can do everything wizards can, while Wizards potentially can't make everything a cleric can.

Nope. We have a nuke and an ulti nearly as powerful as the similar wizzy skills, but that's all. Wizzies have sutra which makes them dps-beasts, Mountain's Seize is a mass stun, Ice Dragon **** physical classes, BT **** us. Undine **** everybody lol

We can't do everything wizards can.

Hi all and thanks for keeping this thread alive

ChronicDose wrote:

A party shouldn't require 2 clerics, one should suffice

Consider the second one as a bonus, one that can take care of the main healer while taking aggro off the DD's... yea, hmmm, we are SO useless */rolleyes*

so playing a FAC seems to me as a Self centered way of saying; "I just want to be different and not play the role that my class was built for."

I don't know any serious gamer who would enter any game and spend so much time, efforts and money, just to play a pre-set role or give other people a hard time. Seriously, if that was the case, PWI would NOT have made such versatile classes in the first place. I really think this game is made for intelligent gamers and encourages our creativity by letting us build the kind of characters we want and that will succeed. Being able to experiment with each one of them is what makes PWI so much fun.

Nelae wrote:

As stated he didnt want to be in a roll of a healer and thus he didnt even get heals so he would not be forced to do so in any situation. Let me remind you that in original long version guide he wrote that he got IH cause he could not keep healing him self with pots, and that was around lv80ish. So he got IH to lv5 or so.
To summon it up. Even at high lvs when you have extra spirit he didnt get heals, not cause it wouldnt help him just so he cant help others *major LOL here*. And thats a FAC.

But lately ppl call all sort of builds FAC, like full mage build can be only FAC? To clear this up, full mag is status build not skill build.
Some call them self FAC just cause they have lill more attack spells lved, some call them self FAC just cause they left revive at lv1.

I can see you are pretty confused about the whole FAC build thing, as well as to the guide's contents. Please don't bring in more confusion.

andracil replied:

I'm not going to close this because it's about FAC's. This is the only thread that's been able to keep a semi-civilised discussion about them, so I'm giving this a shot. If people start to seriously flame, I'll be here right away, I'm keeping an eye on this thread anyway.

A very appreciated gesture, thanks Andracil. I think this thread will help people to understand that:

- the cleric class is NOT a healing/rezzing slave to the whole community;

- the cleric class has many other skills to help teammates, and some of us only want to explore the FAC's full potential;

I encourage every player to build and play a cleric for a while in order to understand its mechanics and also, its frustrations as their calls for help for important quests are totally ignored by the same peeps who benefit from healing, buffing and rezzing wherever they are on the map.

I seriously think that those begging for rez half the map away were trying to bite more than they could chew in the first place and figured, "wth, I'll just call a stupid cleric if I get in trouble", but in return, will do nothing to help the same clerics in their quests.

Needless to say that at level 80, my quest log still lists quests way back from lev 60, but at this point, I know that patience is my friend

Mad_Doc wrote:

... Look I know upgrading the heal skills would cost spirit points but this guide was written by a noobie who obviously never done rebirth. If they did they would know that you get about 400K sp each time you complete rebirth plus about 400k in coins not including mystical fragments, mirages, and possibly immaculate gems (worth millions). That's more than enough money and sp to max your skills.

All very nice indeed, but a cleric in Rebirth without BB is dead meat and useless to the team. Therefore, I stay away from Rebirth quests, for the moment

In closing, I would just like to add that since the Bounty Hunter quests started, people generally have become friendlier and more flexible towards clerics that have chosen a different build and role than the traditional pure healer, and they start to appreciate our work as secondary healers.

b:pleased

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know ExELFine, i really wonder how is it so much different from rest of the clerics who are higher up?
You do what so differently? To give a quick respond, you refuse to heal and revive.

"Consider the second one as a bonus, one that can take care of the main healer while taking aggro off the DD's... yea, hmmm, we are SO useless */rolleyes*" ----> explain whats so good about this?

"I don't know any serious gamer who would enter any game and spend so much time, efforts and money, just to play a pre-set role or give other people a hard time. Seriously, if that was the case, PWI would NOT have made such versatile classes in the first place. I really think this game is made for intelligent gamers and encourages our creativity by letting us build the kind of characters we want and that will succeed. Being able to experiment with each one of them is what makes PWI so much fun."


Hmm if you were low lv i would say ok, but on lv80 please....again you just refuse to take the healing part, while clerics worth something read the situation and do whats needed (DD, debuff, heal...idk what else can a cleric do?).


"I can see you are pretty confused about the whole FAC build thing, as well as to the guide's contents. Please don't bring in more confusion."

Nope i am not, its you that is confused. Tbh i wanted to be a FAC when i started and was a noob, just to learn the facts about it. And being a FAC isnt something nice and worth mentioning.

And i hope you dont confuse full mag build as being FAC only thing lol.

I can go on and on about FAC's, but eh you wont listen like any other FAC.

There was so much flaming here that I looked at this post and my eyes caught on fire.

Why do people seem to think that FAC refuse to heal or rez? If they didn't want to rez, they'd just ignore the skill completely. And if they're rezing a fellow Cleric (who's probably the ONLY one that would be rez'd by a FAC)...well...the target's gonna burn a GA anyways. No real point in leveling it beyond 1. At least they saved money not having to burn a scroll too.

And from the economical standpoint...keeping Revive at 1 is better for the Cleric too. By the time you reach 64 and max it, you'll have spent over 208k spirit and 278k coin for what? It has no practical benefit to the Cleric at that level, other than showing a fellow guildie that you really DO care that much about them that you put all that effort into saving them a few hours of grind each and every time they die. And in all honesty...the people I truly DO want to rez usually just townport anyways. b:sad

So now I've spent all that coin and spirit on a skill that really only adds range and cost. Now, instead of 285 MP, I have to spend almost 1k MP (thus risking more charm ticks) to rez someone I'd probably rather leave dead anyways. What the helllllllllllll!? I coulda put those resources toward killing things!!! b:cry

As for the tactical offensive support...sure we'll never put out the same sheer numbers as a wizzie. But I have yet to see anyone complaining when I'm chewing away 4-5k per hit on average. Especially not the barb, who's saving on repair costs with the faster kills, or the Archer who's not using so much ammo (less time per kill means less chance they spike too much and kill us all, too). And did I mention that's WITHOUT debuffs of any sort? And since I'm smart enough to open with Cyclone...even if I pull the mob I have plenty of time to drop an Iron on myself. Or Plume Shell. Or 79 defense skills (when I get there). Or...oops. No worries. It's already dead.

...I was gonna continue on, but my train of thought got derailed (killing thousands in the aftermath), so I'll just stop here and wait for the inevitable "LOL NOOB CLERICS R SUPPOSED TO HEAL U NOOB" or "U SHUD BE A WIZARD IF YOU WANNA DD (despite the fact that Wizzies can't heal worth a damn...or Rez...or suppliment others with strong buffs)" to continue. b:laugh

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Put your self in the place of your party, AOE boss, something goes wrong PUFF all are dead but you. They didnt bring GA so they risk hours and hours of grind to get that exp. Not to say they are all your friends. So you put that 200k coins and spirit "which isnt really much at all" as defense why you dont have it? I am sure you are happy when you get resed with lv10 revive not a lv1.

That's their choice whether they bring GAs or not. I do, which makes level of Revive that I receive irrelevant. I'm more thankful that I don't have to walk all the way back or waste a scroll. Granted...I WAS thankful for that Level 10 Revive when I was a BM, but that didn't happen often. And to be honest, I was happy with lower level ones too whenever people took the time to stop and res me. =O

As for AoE bosses, I've yet to have a problem with a competent party. If the boss has a physical AoE, and squishies have low HP, then they should know to stay back (whether through personal experiences or through interparty communications). If they DO take a hit and survive...they have the means to heal themselves. Hell, I pack HP pots for the express purpose of keeping myself alive between hits without breaking stride healing the tank. It works great, and allows for solo Clericing of bosses that people tend to think need more than 1 Cleric. Sure...if the Tank is safe, I'll throw a few Wellsprings or a Chromatic around. But if he's not...he's my top priority. If others don't have the common sense to pot/Sutra/Dew/*Insert any of the Veno's means of self healing here*, then that's their problem.

Hell...look at any other RPG. Even with a Cleric/White Mage/Priest/Whatver in the party, you still pack good healing items. Why should an MMO be any different?

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Any cleric is a good DD no doubt about it. And you dont have to be a FAC.

I hear FSC sucks at DD. J/K. XP

Seriously though...FAC is just more emphasis on taking down mobs and bosses faster, while still maintaining options to offer defensive party support like Irons, Buffs, Debuffs, and the occasional Revive (which, again, is usually only dropped when the primary healer goes limp. And again, most Clerics are expected to carry GAs anyways, so it's a moot point what level res they get. A level 10 still burns a GA, after all. ;o;).

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Cause its the FAC concept. Be different by not helping.

Apologies, but that's just dumb. That's like saying Wizzies aren't helping when they're dropping mobs left and right. Again...the damage output of a Cleric CANNOT match that of a Wiz, and I'm not saying that we can. But a Barb could probably attest that they'd rather see mobs drop faster and take 10 hits, then have to sit there and eat 15+.

Now...I agree with you that a Cleric that has NO heals is useless. Hell, most prominent FACs nowadays are arguing that they DO heal and buff and Revive. It's just not their top priority. Nothing wrong with that unless your party needs babysitting.

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You will soon see that you can stay a FAC only if you dont wish to use you spirit and coins on other skills. There isnt really a FAC cleric any more.

Again, we hit this little issue here. The cost.

Now, I'm sure as a Cleric I don't have to go into detail about how often we're at a loss for Spirit or Coin. Leveling skills gets pretty hard in those mid-levels, when we have so many useful ones. And it's not until the endgame that we start seeing that surplus of SP, and Coins become easier to attain. FACs realize this, and focus more on the skills that'll help them and their party kill things faster. And that money that they're not spending on other skills (if they do in fact stick to their guns and only level the skills that are relevant to their interest) can go into better gear, repairs, GAs, Charms, Pots...whatever.

People often complain that Clerics are too costly to play, with many jumping to Venos and whatnot to either augment their cash flow. Perhaps a bit more focus and direction could help with that?

And as for that surplus of SP? Genies are an awesome support tool, and a potential source of extra income. But would you want to spend EXP to level them when EXP becomes so precious later on? Probably not. Also gotta remember that some of the better Genie skills can get pretty costly SP wise...

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Want proof? Ask any higher cleric, those on lv80+ will agree, those on lv90+ will laugh on FAC.

Bleh, just show me how is it that a FAC is different from any cleric lv70+ and i beg you to show me whats different on lv80+. Except the fact that you refuse to lv some skills.

Not to be rude, but the opinion of higher levels doesn't interest me in the least unless it's factual in nature. Unless they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that FACs can't work, then I don't care to hear it. I'd rather glean what I can from the personal experiences of a FAC and what they have to go through than listen to people that may or may not just AFK BB during tougher boss fights. Hell I can do that too. =/

But to be a FAC you have to be alert. Active. And that's what I'm interested in.

Oh...but just for the record...these are the words of someone who focuses more heavily on heals, with enough attacks to keep my grinds easy and fun. And I fully intend to be one of those QQing Clerics that nag about coin because I try to max everything. I just like to put myself in others shoes and see how they tick. b:victory

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

there is a reason why wizzies dont get into parties >_> unless you are a wizzy in a TW guild

Untrue dude...

@XxLady_XelxX, idk how much time you spend in parties. For me its almost the whole time of my play time. And believe me, its costly for every one in the party. I refer to TT/FB and newly added BH.
Having GA 24/7 is a joke, and now with the new gold price, not every one is willing to pay for that much, and not every one is even able to pay.
So to save them from that, and in fact to save myself from that a good cleric has lv10 revive. You know it stinks when in TTs a cleric says, guys my revive is lv1, i am a FAC.
Thrust me they will be thankful for lv10 revive, more then you think. *pays back big time*

Let me quote you a bit ;p

As for AoE bosses, I've yet to have a problem with a competent party. If the boss has a physical AoE, and squishies have low HP, then they should know to stay back (whether through personal experiences or through interparty communications). If they DO take a hit and survive...they have the means to heal themselves. Hell, I pack HP pots for the express purpose of keeping myself alive between hits without breaking stride healing the tank. It works great, and allows for solo Clericing of bosses that people tend to think need more than 1 Cleric. Sure...if the Tank is safe, I'll throw a few Wellsprings or a Chromatic around. But if he's not...he's my top priority. If others don't have the common sense to pot/Sutra/Dew/*Insert any of the Veno's means of self healing here*, then that's their problem.

Tank is you main priority, but other classes cant heal them self as good as a cleric can, and saying use pots when a boss punches few aoes in a row is nasty. And to heal them it takes only a lv1 Chromatic Healing Beam (Spirit: 19.680 Coin: 25.600)

Hell...look at any other RPG. Even with a Cleric/White Mage/Priest/Whatver in the party, you still pack good healing items. Why should an MMO be any different?

Healing orbs have a loooong cool down while pot in many situations wont do. Thats why a cleric has a tuff job, heal, DD, debuff. <---refuse one job and you cant call your self a good cleric ;p

pologies, but that's just dumb. That's like saying Wizzies aren't helping when they're dropping mobs left and right. Again...the damage output of a Cleric CANNOT match that of a Wiz, and I'm not saying that we can. But a Barb could probably attest that they'd rather see mobs drop faster and take 10 hits, then have to sit there and eat 15+.

Then whats the point being called a fac? When skills are the same....so your just another normal cleric.

Now...I agree with you that a Cleric that has NO heals is useless. Hell, most prominent FACs nowadays are arguing that they DO heal and buff and Revive. It's just not their top priority. Nothing wrong with that unless your party needs babysitting.

Again, nothing different from any other cleric, we DD unless we need to heal, + even when you heal you can find place to land a DD combo....

Again, we hit this little issue here. The cost.

Its nothing really, but opens so much more opportunities to a cleric.

Now, I'm sure as a Cleric I don't have to go into detail about how often we're at a loss for Spirit or Coin. Leveling skills gets pretty hard in those mid-levels, when we have so many useful ones. And it's not until the endgame that we start seeing that surplus of SP, and Coins become easier to attain. FACs realize this, and focus more on the skills that'll help them and their party kill things faster. And that money that they're not spending on other skills (if they do in fact stick to their guns and only level the skills that are relevant to their interest) can go into better gear, repairs, GAs, Charms, Pots...whatever.

Untrue, its not a FAC only thing. For example, if a party has 2 clerics lv70+ i am sure not to pick a FAC cleric. Why? Cause he does not have lv10 revive, and any cleric lv70+ has the same DD skils.

Not to be rude, but the opinion of higher levels doesn't interest me in the least unless it's factual in nature. Unless they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that FACs can't work, then I don't care to hear it. I'd rather glean what I can from the personal experiences of a FAC and what they have to go through than listen to people that may or may not just AFK BB during tougher boss fights. Hell I can do that too. =/

The proof is that you have more then enuff spirit and coins, and being called FAC/FSC or what ever does not matter any more ;p

I just like to put myself in others shoes and see how they tick.

I try also, until i met a real FAC, not a semi FAC like every one seems to be...

XxLady_XelxX - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So...basically...it really DOES boil down to the level 10 Revive more often than not. I can suck ****, and as long as I can rez with minimal EXP loss (as opposed to no loss due to intelligent Clerical work), I'll get more work?

...That's basically what I've gathered so far from many of the naysayers. If I'm wrong, help me understand better. Because I would think people would be inclined to like not-dying better than after-death insurance. b:sad

Okay for example, you are in a party of 6, 3 dd's 1 veno with herc, another cleric and yourself in TT. The veno isn't sure they can take a particular boss the other cleric starts red bubble to help healing you wait to see whether it can take it. It can't and cause everyone aprt from u causes aggro on the boss, they all get killed. You can res them all for minimal exp loss, at my lvl the difference between lv 1 and lv 9 res is like 90,000 exp and not EVERYONE always caries dolls.

Why do people keep having a delusion that a PERFECT party (in all aspect: compostion, knowledge, skill, cooperation) will NEVER get wiped?

Most cleric skill are backup plan for dire situation. If everything is always perfect then cleric just need IH, razor, 2 metal skill, 4 buff, 2 seal and nothing more.

Slake - Lost City wrote: »

Obviously I wasn't clear enough, the herc doesn't lose aggro, the herc DIES. Therefore the boss proceeds to track down and kill everyone who attacked it, including the cleric who RB. So the cleric who didn't attack is left standing to res, everyone without dolls will appreciate the lvling of revive (and may hate u for not having lvl 10).

Plus I almost always do TT runs with Venos tanking, it means that clerics can add to the DDing with their considerable firepower and only heal when it is needed (also there isn't many high lvl barbs in my guild).

In some situations the BEST (only) thing to do is let everyone die (not matter how much they hate it) and res them after the 1000 mobs and a boss they aggroed return to their spawns.

^^ Im sure many other high lvl clerics have experienced this ^^

Agreed. With level comes experience, and sometimes you have to make a judgment call. Either you attempt to heal, thus adding yourself to the mobs aggro list, or you don't. Sometimes getting a bb up will be enough, and other times there are simply too many mobs and the squads gets wiped no matter what. When everyone else is dead, you'll have every single mob that has been aggroed on you. If you think the latter will be the outcome, it's better to let them die and res people after the mobs reset. A good squad will say good call, or even tell you not to heal if they see things went south, not go heal u noob wtf u doin?

Also is it me or are there a whole lot of people who don't seem to know how aggro mechanics work? I'm seeing more and more of "if someone steals aggro we're all dead" posts. No, that's not how it works people. If someone steals aggro and they can't take a hit, THEY get killed. Not you or anyone else for that matter (for the sake of simplicity let's assume there's no aoe involved so the placement is irrelevant). If the tank can't regain aggro quickly enough, the person who stole aggro will die, and the mob will turn back to the resident tank as soon as they do. I just lol when that happens.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i got into my first party at lvl 64
and it was a TT run and i was in a TW guild, it was for my TT60
no one wants a wizard
unless its a last resort

I take wizards in my TT parties often, tho i do avoid full mag wizzies with no HP tho b:embarrass

Wizzies are great, better a mag then a BM b:cool

Nelae - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I take wizards in my TT parties often, tho i do avoid full mag wizzies with no HP tho b:embarrass

Wizzies are great, better a mag then a BM b:cool

exactly
95% of wizards are pure mag
so you take that other 4.9% that is LA and 0.1% that is vit