Terms of Service

axiom2520
axiom2520 Posts: 2 Arc User
edited August 2009 in Chronicles
Quick question: do the Terms of Service mean anything on PWI?
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players

From what I can ascertain, Flesh Ream is bugged. By using this skill at all (not just with Phoenix), you are exploiting a bug. You all clearly know about this, yet you are doing nothing to fix it.
PWE may take any actions and impose any penalties we deem necessary to discourage and punish any violation of these terms or any other illegal or inappropriate conduct, all without prior notice or warning. The determination as to whether a violation has occurred and who is responsible for such act is solely within PWE's discretion, and is based on what we deem best for the community and the Website.

By this paragraph, you are stating that any and all judgments will be decided by PWE. It is your game; of course, you do have the legal rights to do so. However, the game is imbalanced due to the fact that you refuse to fix the bug, or, at the very least, punish those that abuse it. Nearly everyone fears Venomancers right now due to Flesh Ream.

Are you going to turn into TQ Digital, where this bug has earned you such profits that you will simply call it a 'feature', or will you actually enforce your ToS and do something about Flesh Ream?

If you remove Flesh Ream (regardless of whether or not you give Venomancers compensation), the majority of them will whine. However, they have been exploiting a bug, so they have no right to complain.

Why should the community be forced to accept a glitch that works in favor of only one class? The way PW was designed was so that each class is capable of doing their job should the player know how to play his/her class. Having Flesh Ream just makes it a hell of a lot easier.

Please note that I am not trying to get Flesh Ream removed; I am trying to get PWE to enforce their ToS. If Strength of the Titans could stack and PWE could not fix it, everyone would want abusers to be banned. So, to reiterate: do the Terms of Service mean anything on PWI?
Post edited by axiom2520 on

Comments

  • Piliener - Lost City
    Piliener - Lost City Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    While I applaud you for the effort of trying to get people on track with bugfixes. I must disagree that the use of Flesh Ream is a violation of the ToS. It is a bug and as such you can't expect people to avoid it just because it is a coding problem. The best advice I can give you is submit a ticket and let your concerns be known.
    Spoons you will forever be missed in this community
  • ilystah
    ilystah Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Piliener - Lost City wrote: »
    While I applaud you for the effort of trying to get people on track with bugfixes. I must disagree that the use of Flesh Ream is a violation of the ToS. It is a bug and as such you can't expect people to avoid it just because it is a coding problem. The best advice I can give you is submit a ticket and let your concerns be known.

    It is a bug or a design flaw, so using it is an exploit. And by the TOS, exploit is a violation if it gain unfair advantage. The blame go to the player that KNOWINGLY using the exploit, but it is actually hard to prove mens rea in case like this, as an oblivious player may easily use it too. So you can't ban people in cases like this, but community action can be invoked, such as isolation, chain PK (in a form that don't violate TOS), shame tactics, etc. However, more blame go to the company for not fixing this bug. Especially after I heard that I did fix it in another version but quickly re-apply the bug due to the dip in cash shop sale.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ilystah wrote: »
    It is a bug or a design flaw, so using it is an exploit. And by the TOS, exploit is a violation if it gain unfair advantage. The blame go to the player that KNOWINGLY using the exploit, but it is actually hard to prove mens rea in case like this, as an oblivious player may easily use it too. So you can't ban people in cases like this, but community action can be invoked, such as isolation, chain PK (in a form that don't violate TOS), shame tactics, etc. However, more blame go to the company for not fixing this bug. Especially after I heard that I did fix it in another version but quickly re-apply the bug due to the dip in cash shop sale.

    Since you are not qualified to say what is a bug or not (since you are not a developer or a GM), what you are saying is only your opinion, however, GMs already said it was working as intended.
    Read post 34 onwards

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=361591&highlight=zhenning&page=4
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • ilystah
    ilystah Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Since you are not qualified to say what is a bug or not (since you are not a developer or a GM), what you are saying is only your opinion, however, GMs already said it was working as intended.
    Read post 34 onwards

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=361591&highlight=zhenning&page=4

    It make no mention of design flaws. It can work as expected yet is still a design flaw. The design flaws might be even intended.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ilystah wrote: »
    It make no mention of design flaws. It can work as expected yet is still a design flaw. The design flaws might be even intended.

    If you want to argue the merits of the lack of pvp damage reduction on the bleed portion of fleshream, than be my guest. I would even agree that the skill may be a tad imbalanced.

    If a design flaw is intended, than it become a feature, not a flaw....
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Ascii - Harshlands
    Ascii - Harshlands Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    You are one of a Million. Believe me. When it comes to flesh ream, it has been said over and over, everyone knows its bugged, ONLY venos deny its bugged, GMs say they will fix it but wont, because at the end of the day they know if they nurf bleed, they nurf there wallets.

    IceJazmin flesh ream isn’t bugged in the sense it doesn’t deploy, its bugged in the sense it completely ignores defences. Hit a monster with your venomous scarab, you hit say 5000, hit a player with venomous scarab u hit 500 (player defences). Hit a monster with flesh ream, 2500, 2500, 2500, hit a player with flesh ream, 2500, 2500, 2500 (ignores player defences) dose it say in flesh ream description the skill ignores players physical defences? No.

    If all dot skills worked in this manor then we would all be in trouble, blademasters could stack bleed, wizards would be kings of dot even my thunderball would kill a charmed barb.

    This thread will be locked soon btw.
    [SIGPIC]http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1588/sig2m.png[/SIGPIC]
  • ilystah
    ilystah Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you want to argue the merits of the lack of pvp damage reduction on the bleed portion of fleshream, than be my guest. I would even agree that the skill may be a tad imbalanced.

    If a design flaw is intended, than it become a feature, not a flaw....

    This is exactly our problems. Unlike bug we can't tell for certainty if it is a design flaws or not. But the ambiguity is enough for the community to divide. A greater problems is with the difference between design flaw and bug: design flaws is not dependent on the intention of the developer, so even if it is intended it can still be a flaws, and at the same time it can still be a feature too. That means not even the devs can just stand up and announce whether this is a design flaws or not, NOBODY in the world have the UNDISPUTABLE authority to decide that. Therefore the community is left argueing over whether the devs decision not to ban people.
    Just an analogy to make it clear: if the devs deliberately put a 1hitko bow into cash shop that cost 10k gold, then it is a design flaws, it is also a feather but it is not a bug, and there is a reason they intentionally cause the flaws which is to cash more money.
  • Ascii - Harshlands
    Ascii - Harshlands Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    ilystah wrote: »
    This is exactly our problems. Unlike bug we can't tell for certainty if it is a design flaws or not. But the ambiguity is enough for the community to divide. A greater problems is with the difference between design flaw and bug: design flaws is not dependent on the intention of the developer, so even if it is intended it can still be a flaws, and at the same time it can still be a feature too. That means not even the devs can just stand up and announce whether this is a design flaws or not, NOBODY in the world have the UNDISPUTABLE authority to decide that. Therefore the community is left argueing over whether the devs decision not to ban people.
    Just an analogy to make it clear: if the devs deliberately put a 1hitko bow into cash shop that cost 10k gold, then it is a design flaws, it is also a feather but it is not a bug, and there is a reason they intentionally cause the flaws which is to cash more money.

    Its not the phoenix itself that’s bugged, the phoenix is fine, just overpowered lol, it’s the actual skill flesh ream, even on other pets its bugged, sawfly’s are the most common because of there fast attack rate. And when I say bugged I mean “design flaw” because this is what this is, it’s not an exploitable glitch that you can get banned for.

    It’s a design flaw in the skill that won’t be fixed, because as long as it exists people will buy nixs to exploit this flaw the most, because its damage is based of the pets physical attack, and nixs have uber high p.atk and a p.atk buff.
    [SIGPIC]http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1588/sig2m.png[/SIGPIC]
  • axiom2520
    axiom2520 Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    @Piliener: You contradicted yourself. You stated it is a bug; my quote from the ToS states that anyone caught exploiting bugs shall be dealt with accordingly.

    If duping existed, it would be a coding problem. Out of honesty, you do indeed expect people to avoid this bug. However, there are those that would abuse it. It is the same as Flesh Ream. As I stated, PWE clearly knows about it.

    @IceJazmin: eatwithspoons is saying that Flesh Ream in itself is not a bug/glitch, but it is glitched. He is implying that you are using the skill, not the glitch, so it is perfectly acceptable.
    "if there are beneficial effects to using the bug/glitch then it is an exploit" means that if you can exploit the bug in a manner not intended but to your benefit it is bannable.

    This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Using the Strength of the Titans example again: if it stacked and gave tens of thousands of damage, the skill itself would NOT be a bug; rather it would be bugged. However, everyone would whine and complain about how it deals too much damage and should PWE be unable to come up with a solution (to the bug) they would need to ban abusers.

    According to what eatwithspoons said, using the skill FOR THE INTENDED PURPOSES (increasing your P-atk) is perfectly legal. If, say, it increased M-atk (even by 1), however, then it would be bannable.
    Are you going to turn into TQ Digital, where this bug has earned you such profits that you will simply call it a 'feature', or will you actually enforce your ToS and do something about Flesh Ream?

    I'm quoting myself because you seem to have skipped over this paragraph. It is a bug. There is NO denying it. In fact, they even removed it from other versions of this game BECAUSE IT WAS BUGGED. The only reason they put it back was because people started crying about it. TQ Digital had a game with something called 'Poison Zap' where a melee class could equip a certain blade weapon, use a magic attack and deal full physical damage to casters. It was a 'bug', but lots of people invested hundreds (or even thousands) into these blades. If they were to be removed/changed, TQ Digital would lose all those customers ("z0mg i r spentted monies on this game and i r losed it i quitted now").

    @Ascii: why? Because I am searching for an answer as to the integrity of PWE? Well then, if they close the thread without answering it, that gives me an answer anyway.

    @ilystah: a design flaw is unintentional. That is indisputable. You've used the wrong wording; it is not a design flaw, but imbalance.
  • Teh_fishey - Dreamweaver
    Teh_fishey - Dreamweaver Posts: 552 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Hey I have a few questions about flesh ream. I've never personally had a pet that has that skill so I'm just wondering whats wrong with it. Why is everyone so afraid I flesh ream? What does it do? And in what way is it bugged?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Ascii - Harshlands
    Ascii - Harshlands Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    If you read my posts before you will see why, but long story short Flesh Ream ignores the players physical defence, it will do the same damage on a monster then it dose on a player.

    Oh and you can see, the GMs know this fault exists, never wants to confirm its going to be fixed because of there love for money is greater then player happiness, hence this thread has been moved to the lower depths forum with no word for a perfectly good question.
    [SIGPIC]http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1588/sig2m.png[/SIGPIC]
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited August 2009
    Simple answer to your question. And you made it yourself.

    It was removed and returned in other versions of PWI.

    It is not broken (even if people want to say it is). The skill works as intended on the targets it is used on.

    The developers have spoken by returning it to the game. It can longer be considered broken or a bug, but rather it is now a feature.

    Accept it cupcake. The argument over Flesh Ream is over.

    ~S

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