BM PvP Tactics

The_DjokeR - Sanctuary wrote: »

just to start off i hav a lvl 70 BM on sanc..

Anyhoo i visit the pwi forums daily and all i see in the BM section is "fist BMs do not suck","axe is better than sword","which weapon is best?" and of course "need help with build"b:angry....

i noticed that we hav almost no threads on PvP tactics against other classesb:surrender...i actually visit the other class discussions to try to figure out pvp tacics XD....

So all i'm saying is that it wud b gr8 if all high lvl BMs cud giv thr input on pvp tactics against other classes..

"Class- approach" wud b the best format..

ty in advance for any input b:thanks

lol personally one of a BMs best PvP skill is the leaps it is a must although alot of people get pissed off cause its "cheap against their char by this i mean Barbs particularly)leap forward comes in handy to catch up to a magic user or archer also comes in handy when they run :P second off choose one of the following paths Axe/hammers for serious stun and AoE Polearm for serious Bleed/AoE but only if u use one of the leap skills due to the Linar AoEs or Fists fists are excellent PvPers cause they have a high envasion/ crit rate then any barb attacks super fast and can easily get 2 sparks for 59 skill keep in mind Fists arnt really good untill after sage/demon (DEMON IS A MUST) as a polearm BM skills that come in handy are Draw blood (MAX AS SOON AS POSSIBLE) aoen strike for the stunning drakes ray for range, Pericing winds (max as soon as possible) fan of flames Drakes sweeo and all polearm skills u kno what i mean :P one more thing PvPing barbs is fun :P watch them cry as u seriously hurt a barbs HP due to massive Bleed my stats by the way is capped 50 hp( when i get there the rest STR AND DEX

__Leonidas__ - Sanctuary wrote: »

as for magic users u can PK them 2-3 hits 1 on critical :P 5 lvls higher and below :P watch out for clerics Tempst make sure u cast the Spark eurruption at the right time to avoid being killed 1 hit archers well i dunno yet :P

I think he means pvp after level 70...
I can give you some advice for clerics since I'm most familiar with them, once again I'm not that high level.
Any good cleric will have plume shell on all the time, especially with an mp charm it will stay on forever. Forget about 2-3 hitting clerics like Leonidas said if they have plume shell on. The basic tactic for a cleric against a bm would be to sleep/seal, then spark, then cast wield thunder or tempest. Best thing you can do would be to use will, this prevents sleep/seal for 15 seconds and usually surprises the cleric as they waste a sleep/seal on you. Of course cast alter marrow magical on you to reduce the damage a bit. i would recommend starting off with a drake bash, then doing a stunlock. If you can get their health below half by the time the first stunlock wears off then most clerics will either run or try to heal themselves. This is a great opportunity for you to leap to chase them, drake's ray, or start up another stunlock. If they use anti-stun pots, I would stay out of their range until it wears off. Use either cloud sprint or holy path to get out of their range, the moment the anti-stun wears off get back and start up a stunlock. If you see them spark, roar and then kite them until it wears off, a cleric with double spark or higher can pack a serious punch.
Those are just some general tips against clerics, in my experience I've found that usually if a cleric can't 1-2 hit me, I can eventually stunlock them to death. But just a tip for pvp in general, as a melee class, other classes always expect you to rush on and attack nonstop like an idiot. Therefore they'll try to lure you in when they have a pot on, or have some sort of damage reducing-skill or anti-stun skill on. If you keep cool, and take a look at what buffs they have on, you can usually avoid this trap, stay out of their range, and then go back and own them when their pot/skill is on cooldown. If you do kite them, when you're running back make sure you use will of the bohditsva on, that ensures that you can reach them safely.

__Leonidas__ - Sanctuary wrote: »

lol personally one of a BMs best PvP skill is the leaps it is a must although alot of people get pissed off cause its "cheap against their char by this i mean Barbs particularly)leap forward comes in handy to catch up to a magic user or archer also comes in handy when they run :P second off choose one of the following paths Axe/hammers for serious stun and AoE Polearm for serious Bleed/AoE but only if u use one of the leap skills due to the Linar AoEs or Fists fists are excellent PvPers cause they have a high envasion/ crit rate then any barb attacks super fast and can easily get 2 sparks for 59 skill keep in mind Fists arnt really good untill after sage/demon (DEMON IS A MUST) as a polearm BM skills that come in handy are Draw blood (MAX AS SOON AS POSSIBLE) aoen strike for the stunning drakes ray for range, Pericing winds (max as soon as possible) fan of flames Drakes sweeo and all polearm skills u kno what i mean :P one more thing PvPing barbs is fun :P watch them cry as u seriously hurt a barbs HP due to massive Bleed my stats by the way is capped 50 hp( when i get there the rest STR AND DEX

Yes barbs are really easy under level 70, then 70+ they pick up 2 mistys, get over 10k hp, and start to kick ****. Classes shouldn't be judged until at least 70 or 80+

halelujah!! finally a gud thread XD

Since Filet's post on pvp against Clerics is good.i thought i'd post my opinion on pvp against archers.

Key Archer Skills (against BMs)-Stunning arrow(stun),Aim low(freeze),Winged Shell(damage absorption),All thunder skills(metal damage),deadly shot(very deadly XDXD)

Wat archers will usually do against a BM will be to first try to create distance between us and then open with a either a stunning arrow and follow it up with an aim low or vice versa to stun/freeze us,when we eventually start moving they'll use their winged shell to basically nerf our first 2-3 hits and then go all out on their thunder(metal) skills. Another strategy they use is to stun/freeze, spark+deadly shot (which =dead BM XD)

Key BM Skills (against archers)-Will of the bodhisatva,Roar of pride,Aelion blade,Oeans Edge, High Damage skills(atmos strike,fissure,cyclone heal)

So the best approach for a BM is to start off with ur will of the bodhisatva,this will nerf their stun and freeze givin u a gr8 advantage.Next step is to STUN(roar) em,by this time they wud hav activated thr winged shell(which at lvl 10 can absorb 750 damage,thats abt 2-3 hits),so shud try to end their winged shell as soon as possible, then use ocean edge to slow em coz when our Roar runs out they'll ty to run,once u slowed them try and stun them again(drakes breadth,aelion blade) and then go all out on ur high damage skills. One of the main things to keep in mind against the archers is that if u giv them distance and time u will end up deadb:surrender...so make sure u hav ur ur will and cloud sprint rdy b:victory

(which marrow u use is up to u ,but alt.mag is recommended coz they use a lotta metal skills)

Divine_Death ur method in my opinion is impractical.Here's y,

In all ur tactics,specially against archers and robe classes u tell to use Will and then finish with our ult(2 spark)...

1)pvp against archer/robes don't last long..
2)If we start with will and follow up with raw to stun,we will not hav enuf chi/spark to use ultimate skills(bcoz the fights r so short)

I think without tryn to use our ult which costs 2 sparks,it wud b smarter to use spark eruption(1 spark) and D.sutra (1 spark).Then u wud heal and we'd b hittin harder for 10 secs. \m/b:laugh\m/

Saint_Elf - Sanctuary wrote: »

Divine_Death ur method in my opinion is impractical.Here's y,

In all ur tactics,specially against archers and robe classes u tell to use Will and then finish with our ult(2 spark)...

1)pvp against archer/robes don't last long..
2)If we start with will and follow up with raw to stun,we will not hav enuf chi/spark to use ultimate skills(bcoz the fights r so short)

I think without tryn to use our ult which costs 2 sparks,it wud b smarter to use spark eruption(1 spark) and D.sutra (1 spark).Then u wud heal and we'd b hittin harder for 10 secs. \m/b:laugh\m/

Roar only takes 35 chi. By the time you tick their charm, you usually get the chi back (unless you crit b:laugh). Worked for me so farb:cute. It's only for 1v1 fight after a long hunt thought since it's a full-chi combo. I wouldn't waste a spark on a Sutra in PvP. You can just take a Dark Green Orb if you are not taking accuracy powder against an archer.

Nevlik - Heavens Tear wrote: »

past 90 your method doesn't really work (unless you have +8 gxs b:surrender)

wizards have crazy good gear past 90 (seeing as few ever make it that far), moderate-high hp and fairly good phys def

veno's have nix, a few will have incredible hp, most will have enough to give bm's trouble.

clerics will often have anti stun pots, plume shell, and demon spark.

bms, it's mostly gear

In other words, we are screwd? b:chuckle

Those are just from my personal experience up to now, not an official BM PvP guide. I have no idea what it's like after heaven/hell.

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Roar only takes 35 chi. By the time you tick their charm, you usually get the chi back (unless you crit b:laugh). Worked for me so farb:cute. It's only for 1v1 fight after a long hunt thought since it's a full-chi combo. I wouldn't waste a spark on a Sutra in PvP. You can just take a Dark Green Orb if you are not taking accuracy powder against an archer.

Here's the problem in all ur tactics, u'r assuming way too much.When speaking from a general perspective we prolly won't hav accuracy pots,anti stun pots,geen orbs,healing orbs etc with us at an instance of pvp. Say for instance
we didn't hav the apoc skill and didn' hav the acc pots etc, then we'd b gonersb:bye.

Wat i'm saying is mainly using BM/Genie skills during pvp. \m/ b:laugh \m/

b:cute Nice Topic. I always feel like the Wr section of the forums sucks balls.

Here's my advice. Comes from 9x+ pvp. Not under. Also from a Axe User. Everything else blows in pvp.

One Versus One.
Warriors. First off, If you have never fought the particular warrior you're fighting. I don't recommend you use physical sutra. It's dumb. One heavens flame / thunder storm after your charms ticked = Dead AND you look like a idiot. You should have enuff pdef as it is.
Don't worry about stun locking. It's only important to stun after their charm is on cool down and your setting up your finishing combo.

Few ways to do this.
Charm tick> Dragons > Thunderstorm.
Get them to 60% hp > Triple spark > Charm tick > 1 quick skill such as Oceans edge > Will of the bodshivsta > Finish. (add in a 50 chi gain if you're heaven and stun them so they can't kite after you triple spark.)

Barbs. Basically unless you have GX or XS and refined wouldn't bother. If so it's just:
Spark > Tickcharm > Dragons > thunderstorm.
Or Triple spark > Stun > Hope you crit crit and zerk. You really shouldn't 1 v 1 barbs but it happens.

Archers.First off, I don't care if you are a dex, non-dex, have misty rings or not. If you want to **** archers on a 90% average get level 4 apothecary. Farm Tiger-ear / Validia Root and make the level 60 accuracy pots. (lasts like 15-20 seconds and gives me about 8,000+ accuracy)
Light armor sucks, the reason they live is because of their evasion nothing else.
I highly suggest when you see a archer you do not use marrows either physical or magic. Most of the time archers do this combo on warriors / barbs.
Sharpentooth (Reduces Hp for 30 seconds) Metal attack > Metal attack > guess what? Metal attack. Now when you get up to them Few things happen either A) They pop anti stun skill and keep going with metal attacks Or if you're dumb you put on magic sutra and they use winged pledge or whatever and crit the **** out of you and kill you. GG you look dumb and died when you shouldn't have.

If they get a jump on you and use aim low. Don't sit there for it to wear off or pop marrows. Use leap back. You'll be out of range, not much but they're going to have to move and reset up to attack again. It only lasts 8 seconds most archers don't expect do have to move after a aim low hits. Catch them off guard and leap.

Anyways combo is this.
Get into melee range.
Lions Roar > Pop Accuracy powder > 1-2 quick attacks (Oceans edge (For slow proc) / Aeloians Blade.) Normally I just do one attack and wait for the stun to wear off so I can nail them with > Drakes bash > Either double spark / Dragons / Quickest attacks. With the accuracy powder not lasting very long you're whole goal is to stun them while doing damage, Drake bash, Heavens flame isn't going to miss with that powder so it's just like **** a squishy.

If you **** up GG. powder has a 60 second cool down. (some times since I use GX I simply stun > accuracy powder > triple spark > auto swing)

Clerics. Clerics are never really a problem in single pvp. Sure they have plume shell but they only have one physical attack (Plume shot) I almost always use magic marrow against them. (Plume shot isn't going to break your charm and kill you alone.) Fighting a cleric is more of a timing battle than anything else. Your goal is to stun before plume shell goes off, a stunned ep isn't going to spam heal itself like a rocked out meth head or cast shell. Clerics have **** pdef, so if you get that first stun off you're looking good already. Same thing applies to to clerics as archers, they bind you? Leap. Saves you're life from a bind > Debuff > Tempest.
Most of the time they'll start with sleep use will of the bod. if they sleep you while your magic marrow is off be prepaired to watch as they bind you debuff you and use a ultimate on your ****.

My favorite is to catch unsuspecting clerics with a heavens flame > drake bash combo. Instant charm tick and stunned for 6 seconds. Finish them off and watch them QQ about how you just **** a "Lowly robe class and your weak"

Mages. Mages before 9x are easy like baby. 90-100+ mages bit of a different story. Any smart mage stacks pdef in sockets rather than hp. They have a buff that gives pdef so they center their build around stacking more and more of it. (Just like barbs stacking hp) Always always always use marrow in 1 v 1 pvp with mages, they have 1 spell that does half physical. Mages use undine strike combined with extreme poison like it's going to get them laid irl.
Also time your stuns when they have distance shrink on cool down. If you are pvping a smart mage they will kite all day while nuking and seal you when your about to stun.

If you see them distance shrink > casting a ultimate.
Air: Drop / Leap back / leap forward + stun.
Ground: Same except you can't drop.
The easiest way to know you are about to get nuked is when you either have extreme poison / undine strike or both on you. If you're not close enough to stun kite away.

Combo
Magic marrow > lion roar > highland cleave / oceans edge. (i prefer oceans edge because I hate using slow aoe skills compared to 1 v 1 pvp. **** is for TW not 1 v 1.) Drake bash > Heavens flame > finish with quick casting attacks.

Venos. My least favorite class to fight in a one on one. Usually venos are easy if you have two people on them. Being heavy I don't get blood clot.
The major problem isn't the bird or the magic damage it's the debuff. **** messes you up when you have zero buffs, bleed, and now getting nuked with magic. Also they get a > Reduce pdef to 0 skill that has a 20% chance to hit, Fox form to give extra pdef. If they're hell they get a 10 m/s run buff. The most annoying fact is that they can kite and have the nix on you.

Yes they get to play on easy mode but they A) had to farm for their nix or cash shop like 250$ So don't QQ when you get ****, makes you look like a idiot. (Like the cleric QQ's when you **** their face)

Heavy veno:
Stun > Heaven flame > Thunderstorm. (They have much less hp than warriors this is a very viable combo when fighting them for a 2 shot set up.)
Robe veno:
Stun > attack > rinse > repeat.
Light veno:
Imo the most pain. They get good hp, good pdef out of fox form and are kite / nix reliant heavy.
I usually don't bother unless I have someone with me or im fairly confident their gear is under mine.

Keep this in mind when fighting a veno. You're heavy bleed alone shouldn't kill you. Stun locking the caster is critical to having your charm tick before you die from bleed or a bleed / nuke combo.

Group / Air Pvp.
Just going to run through some things not to do. You have a basic idea of how each class works.
Group pvp never use marrows. Unless fighting multiple casters (Mages / clerics). Still not viable to use physical marrow anymore because of warriors with dragons / thunderstorm. (Unless you know they don't have it.)

Leaps USE THEM. GET OVER THE FACT IT's NOT AS GOOD AS DISTANCE SHRINK.

If you're being focused in the air > drop. reduced damage when your falling. I've lived several times with less than 100 hp.

Genies.
Thunderstorm. Combo it with dragons on a heavy (best if on the ground / close range)
Tree Of Protection. (Basically not only does it heal you you can proc it before a cleric / mage / barb either is about to tempest / ultimate / perdition you and still live. (have about 15k hp when it's full. also saves you in between charm ticks.
Extreme poison. Ranged 30% extra damage. Like amp. Enough said.

Apothecary.
IS YOUR BEST FRIEND, Reduce damage, Accuracy, Immune to damage are essential for pvp. PvP pots are more important that having a charm.
Example: Their are pots that stun you for 8 seconds but you're immune to damage.

Will of the bod > Use pot > Free to move / unstunnable / immune to damage. How broken is that? 8 seconds of being able to do what anything untouched (Unless you're sealed then GG lol@you)
Warriors aren't tanks but they can take players easy like baby with stone turtle orbs and reduce damage pots.
Again already mentioned accuracy powders for archers / fist / kids with down syndrome (Sword users)

That's a quick run through at 3:35am. I know im leaving a few things out but that is the basics of warrior pvp.

Feel free to ask questions or flame me like im ya daddy and give a damn.b:bye

complexx wrote: »

b:cute Nice Topic. I always feel like the Wr section of the forums sucks balls.

Here's my advice. Comes from 9x+ pvp. Not under. Also from a Axe User. Everything else blows in pvp.

One Versus One.
Warriors. First off, If you have never fought the particular warrior you're fighting. I don't recommend you use physical sutra. It's dumb. One heavens flame / thunder storm after your charms ticked = Dead AND you look like a idiot. You should have enuff pdef as it is.
Don't worry about stun locking. It's only important to stun after their charm is on cool down and your setting up your finishing combo.

Few ways to do this.
Charm tick> Dragons > Thunderstorm.
Get them to 60% hp > Triple spark > Charm tick > 1 quick skill such as Oceans edge > Will of the bodshivsta > Finish. (add in a 50 chi gain if you're heaven and stun them so they can't kite after you triple spark.)

Barbs. Basically unless you have GX or XS and refined wouldn't bother. If so it's just:
Spark > Tickcharm > Dragons > thunderstorm.
Or Triple spark > Stun > Hope you crit crit and zerk. You really shouldn't 1 v 1 barbs but it happens.

Archers.First off, I don't care if you are a dex, non-dex, have misty rings or not. If you want to **** archers on a 90% average get level 4 apothecary. Farm Tiger-ear / Validia Root and make the level 60 accuracy pots. (lasts like 15-20 seconds and gives me about 8,000+ accuracy)
Light armor sucks, the reason they live is because of their evasion nothing else.
I highly suggest when you see a archer you do not use marrows either physical or magic. Most of the time archers do this combo on warriors / barbs.
Sharpentooth (Reduces Hp for 30 seconds) Metal attack > Metal attack > guess what? Metal attack. Now when you get up to them Few things happen either A) They pop anti stun skill and keep going with metal attacks Or if you're dumb you put on magic sutra and they use winged pledge or whatever and crit the **** out of you and kill you. GG you look dumb and died when you shouldn't have.

If they get a jump on you and use aim low. Don't sit there for it to wear off or pop marrows. Use leap back. You'll be out of range, not much but they're going to have to move and reset up to attack again. It only lasts 8 seconds most archers don't expect do have to move after a aim low hits. Catch them off guard and leap.

Anyways combo is this.
Get into melee range.
Lions Roar > Pop Accuracy powder > 1-2 quick attacks (Oceans edge (For slow proc) / Aeloians Blade.) Normally I just do one attack and wait for the stun to wear off so I can nail them with > Drakes bash > Either double spark / Dragons / Quickest attacks. With the accuracy powder not lasting very long you're whole goal is to stun them while doing damage, Drake bash, Heavens flame isn't going to miss with that powder so it's just like **** a squishy.

If you **** up GG. powder has a 60 second cool down. (some times since I use GX I simply stun > accuracy powder > triple spark > auto swing)

Clerics. Clerics are never really a problem in single pvp. Sure they have plume shell but they only have one physical attack (Plume shot) I almost always use magic marrow against them. (Plume shot isn't going to break your charm and kill you alone.) Fighting a cleric is more of a timing battle than anything else. Your goal is to stun before plume shell goes off, a stunned ep isn't going to spam heal itself like a rocked out meth head or cast shell. Clerics have **** pdef, so if you get that first stun off you're looking good already. Same thing applies to to clerics as archers, they bind you? Leap. Saves you're life from a bind > Debuff > Tempest.
Most of the time they'll start with sleep use will of the bod. if they sleep you while your magic marrow is off be prepaired to watch as they bind you debuff you and use a ultimate on your ****.

My favorite is to catch unsuspecting clerics with a heavens flame > drake bash combo. Instant charm tick and stunned for 6 seconds. Finish them off and watch them QQ about how you just **** a "Lowly robe class and your weak"

Mages. Mages before 9x are easy like baby. 90-100+ mages bit of a different story. Any smart mage stacks pdef in sockets rather than hp. They have a buff that gives pdef so they center their build around stacking more and more of it. (Just like barbs stacking hp) Always always always use marrow in 1 v 1 pvp with mages, they have 1 spell that does half physical. Mages use undine strike combined with extreme poison like it's going to get them laid irl.
Also time your stuns when they have distance shrink on cool down. If you are pvping a smart mage they will kite all day while nuking and seal you when your about to stun.

If you see them distance shrink > casting a ultimate.
Air: Drop / Leap back / leap forward + stun.
Ground: Same except you can't drop.
The easiest way to know you are about to get nuked is when you either have extreme poison / undine strike or both on you. If you're not close enough to stun kite away.

Combo
Magic marrow > lion roar > highland cleave / oceans edge. (i prefer oceans edge because I hate using slow aoe skills compared to 1 v 1 pvp. **** is for TW not 1 v 1.) Drake bash > Heavens flame > finish with quick casting attacks.

Venos. My least favorite class to fight in a one on one. Usually venos are easy if you have two people on them. Being heavy I don't get blood clot.
The major problem isn't the bird or the magic damage it's the debuff. **** messes you up when you have zero buffs, bleed, and now getting nuked with magic. Also they get a > Reduce pdef to 0 skill that has a 20% chance to hit, Fox form to give extra pdef. If they're hell they get a 10 m/s run buff. The most annoying fact is that they can kite and have the nix on you.

Yes they get to play on easy mode but they A) had to farm for their nix or cash shop like 250$ So don't QQ when you get ****, makes you look like a idiot. (Like the cleric QQ's when you **** their face)

Heavy veno:
Stun > Heaven flame > Thunderstorm. (They have much less hp than warriors this is a very viable combo when fighting them for a 2 shot set up.)
Robe veno:
Stun > attack > rinse > repeat.
Light veno:
Imo the most pain. They get good hp, good pdef out of fox form and are kite / nix reliant heavy.
I usually don't bother unless I have someone with me or im fairly confident their gear is under mine.

Keep this in mind when fighting a veno. You're heavy bleed alone shouldn't kill you. Stun locking the caster is critical to having your charm tick before you die from bleed or a bleed / nuke combo.

Group / Air Pvp.
Just going to run through some things not to do. You have a basic idea of how each class works.
Group pvp never use marrows. Unless fighting multiple casters (Mages / clerics). Still not viable to use physical marrow anymore because of warriors with dragons / thunderstorm. (Unless you know they don't have it.)

Leaps USE THEM. GET OVER THE FACT IT's NOT AS GOOD AS DISTANCE SHRINK.

If you're being focused in the air > drop. reduced damage when your falling. I've lived several times with less than 100 hp.

Genies.
Thunderstorm. Combo it with dragons on a heavy (best if on the ground / close range)
Tree Of Protection. (Basically not only does it heal you you can proc it before a cleric / mage / barb either is about to tempest / ultimate / perdition you and still live. (have about 15k hp when it's full. also saves you in between charm ticks.
Extreme poison. Ranged 30% extra damage. Like amp. Enough said.

Apothecary.
IS YOUR BEST FRIEND, Reduce damage, Accuracy, Immune to damage are essential for pvp. PvP pots are more important that having a charm.
Example: Their are pots that stun you for 8 seconds but you're immune to damage.

Will of the bod > Use pot > Free to move / unstunnable / immune to damage. How broken is that? 8 seconds of being able to do what anything untouched (Unless you're sealed then GG lol@you)
Warriors aren't tanks but they can take players easy like baby with stone turtle orbs and reduce damage pots.
Again already mentioned accuracy powders for archers / fist / kids with down syndrome (Sword users)

That's a quick run through at 3:35am. I know im leaving a few things out but that is the basics of warrior pvp.

Feel free to ask questions or flame me like im ya daddy and give a damn.b:bye

Even though I'm a dual blades BM, I must say this is a job well done b:victory. Nice combos,genie skills,apoc pots. Kudos Complexx!

complexx wrote: »

I used sword / blades till 7x. It's just not a viable pvp option in my opinion.
But thanks b:cute

I'm Polearm but being "forced" going also aexs b:sad. Axes are just better by too much lol. Zerk weapon at 70... amp with ult... b:surrender

"You need axe BM for RB" b:angry

complexx wrote: »

I used sword / blades till 7x. It's just not a viable pvp option in my opinion.
But thanks b:cute

I understand wat ur sayin but all i see are axe BMs.I wanna b different so i'm gonna stick to my dual blades/swords till the end. Who knows it may be better than axes in the long run b:chuckle but i'l just havta w8 and c :P

We finally have an interesting and useful topic here. Pls dont ruin it.
*pointing to no-one in particular*