Difference between Scorpions

Posts: 215 Arc User
edited September 2009 in Venomancer
Hi, I just recently caught a Weeping Scorpion Queen; I've heard Scorpions have good attack. And I know the lower level pets have better stats than higher level ones of the same species.

Now I am wondering what the difference will be between a lvl28 Weeping Scorpion Queen and a lvl2 Pollen Scorpion? I would like to keep my Weeping Scorpion Queen since she's rather nice looking (unlike the other scorpions), if the difference is not too much.

Thanks in advance.b:thanks
Moved to WoW b:bye
Post edited by Lolite - Heavens Tear on

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  • Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Been wondering the same thing, but don't have a free pet bag slot at the moment (and don't feel like resetting loyalty on any of my pets).

    I'd imagine they should have the same growth profile, so you could probably catch a Lv.2 scorpion, and level it a few times while tracking stat growth.

    Once you know what the growth pattern is, extrapolate to level 28, and you will know what the difference is.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    theres quite a difference, like in my 28 golem compared to a level 18 one. at 70 there was a huge gap in the defenses from 59->32->28-> and lastly 18 versions in each step up respectively. whereas the 59 breed at 70 had 5.5k def, my 28 had 6.6k, compared to the 18 which had 7.2. it makes a very big dif :P.
  • Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Thanks for the replies. I've been wanting to have a high damage pet for ages due to my cub's low attack b:surrender And I really did not feel like leveling a lvl2 to around my lvl b:sad But I guess I will just level a lvl2 scorpion to lvl28 and see the difference.

    In addition, where should I go level my pet once it hits lvl30? I realize I can't 1 hit ko those lvl36+ mobs any more ><

    I guess I just need a pet that can really hold the aggro well w/o me pausing and wait for 2 secs before attacking again.

    Any suggestions on high damage pet around my level. Thanks!
    Moved to WoW b:bye
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Eldergoth Marksman at lvl 41?

    I'm not so sure about the "big" differences. A pet only does a fraction of the damage (you do the rest), so there really needs to be a big difference to make a difference in the number of your hits it takes to kill the average mob. Your scorpion should be able to hold aggro better than your cub, probably comes with better skills, and is probably faster than lower level scorpions. I would consider it disposable and not invest much into it though.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    I guess I just need a pet that can really hold the aggro well w/o me pausing and wait for 2 secs before attacking again.

    Aggro comes from using a pet skill, and from damage done. In most cases, manually triggering an extra skill will generate far more aggro than switching to a high-damage pet.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=259391

    If you're using the cub's default skillset, be sure to manually trigger Pierce and Pounce every time they recycle (Pounce also gives an attack speed boost so will increase your cub's damage output). I really would recommend replacing one of the skills with Bash though (for the 8 sec cooldown, not because it generates any more aggro per application than the other skills). My cub has Bash and Flesh Ream as primary aggro skills, and with both skills at level 4 it holds aggro as well as if not better than my golem using Bash alone. (Also note that the cub's high defense doesn't help - since you don't have to heal it as much, you have more time to spam attacks. The scorp is going to require more healing.)

    At higher levels, pausing a bit between attacks is a fact of life. Every damage class has to deal with it, not just venos. In fact, learning how to deal with it (so you don't steal aggro from the tank) is crucial if you want to be a good team player in parties.

    But if you really wanted, you could load up a scorp or golem with 8-sec aggro skills (Bash, Fireball, Sandblow, etc) and trigger them all manually. That would produce a pet with the highest aggro-generating capability. I'd be curious to see if that pet can hold aggro against a full int veno spamming nukes as fast as she can.
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    I wouldn't want to be bothered with manually spamming skills on all my pets. At 80+, if I don't refine passed +2 and don't imbue, my pets (Nix w/ flesh ream, Herc w/ Bash & reflect, Plumpfish w/ bash& reflect, Eldergoth w/ bash & flesh ream, Kowlin w/flesh ream, bash, & reflect) generally keep aggro. Herc will lose aggro on range/ magic only mobs that don't get reflect dmg, or if they're simply light hitters like lower level fb mobs.

    A cub has low atk, dps to begin with. Flesh ream, bash, elements are wasted on this low number as they have a multiplier effect. I would aim for non multiplier aggro holders like roar or reflect.

    What about using the wood elemental skill? Wouldn't it help hold aggro better on earth based mobs which are more sensitive to your own wood based skills? I also wonder if water pets shouldn't have sandstorm since most water mobs are water based?
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    A cub has low atk, dps to begin with. Flesh ream, bash, elements are wasted on this low number as they have a multiplier effect. I would aim for non multiplier aggro holders like roar or reflect.

    You didn't read the link I gave, did you? All those skills give pretty much the same amount of aggro (reflect doesn't, but it's a rare skill that costs 4 million at auction). The damage skills do extra aggro due to their damage, so they are always a better choice than roar at holding aggro.

    Roar is useful for grabbing aggro when someone pulls it off the tank. Not for generating and holding aggro. In fact I'm doubtful Roar can even be used to hold aggro. As best as I can tell, every time you use Roar, the aggro table is wiped clean and it's like everyone is starting over from zero except for the pet which starts at ~3000-5000. If you use Roar just before the wizard nukes for 8000, you've just killed the wizard.
  • Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    I don't see anyone post the same species pet level difference, people only tell lower the level, the better the states.

    to determine the level difference:
    (higher_level - lower_level) / 10 = level states difference

    where higher_level is the level of the higher level pet;
    where lower_level is the level of the lower level pet;

    for example, a pet caught at level 2 and the same species pet caught at level 22, (22-2)/10=2, that means the level 2 pet at level 20 will have the same states as the pet caught at level 22, or the level 2 pet is level 22, the level 22 pet has to be level 24 to have the same states.

    to know the exact states difference:
    (higher_level - lower_level) / 10 * constant_gain_per_level = exact states difference

    using crystaline and volcanic magmite as example, they gain 100 Pdef per pet level and their states difference is (18-17)/10*100=10, this formula works for all the constant gains except pet atk and movement, as the atk gain per level is not constant, but should share the same idea if people know the formula for the atk and plug in the the whole formula instead of the constant gain number.

    for your question, (28-2)/10=2.6 level difference, your queen will have lower states when the level 2 pet reaches level 26, to see the exact states lost, you have to plug in the level gain yourself to see.

    I didn't figure out this formula, I read it long time ago in the chinese forum.
  • Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    @ Solandri
    My cub has up-to-lvl skills and I've replaced pierce with bash as soon I got him. But for an impatient pure int veno like me, I like to spam skills as fast as I can ^^;; I guess that' why I always end up stealing the mob from my pet.

    The reason I want to have a high damage pet was because I would like to finish mobs around my lvl in 3 hits. Sometimes after 3 hits, the mob (eg mutantious prisoner) still has a tiny bit of hp left. So I was thinking if I had a scorpion instead, I can usually finish them up in 3 hits w/o wasting my mana for a forth hit or waiting for my pet to kill it.

    @ tweakz

    I just read your post on Elgoth Marksman a few days ago, and I did catch one to try it out. Unfortunately, I could not seem to get it to do a long range attack for me b:surrender Would you mind enlightening me how to do it correctly?

    In addition, as you mentioned wood elemental skills. The petite sawfly with lvl 1 toxic mist (I hope that's the name) was actually very good at holding the aggro. When I was fighting those foxwing supremes, I did not steal the mob from it once (and it was only lvl40b:shocked) But in comparison, the froggie I had really... was very similar to cub when it comes to holding the mob from attacking me b:surrender

    I guess I will keep the scorpion for now and wait till I save up enough money for those lengendaries.


    ~~ Lolite
  • Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    My apologies! Logged into my side account to post reply >.<;;; The above post was written by me >.<
    Moved to WoW b:bye
  • Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    qin9 wrote: »
    this formula works for all the constant gains except pet atk and movement, as the atk gain per level is not constant, but should share the same idea if people know the formula for the atk and plug in the the whole formula instead of the constant gain number.
    A lot of us would kill to know the formula for pet atk progression...

    Thanks for the tip on quantifying the difference.
    The reason I want to have a high damage pet was because I would like to finish mobs around my lvl in 3 hits. Sometimes after 3 hits, the mob (eg mutantious prisoner) still has a tiny bit of hp left. So I was thinking if I had a scorpion instead, I can usually finish them up in 3 hits w/o wasting my mana for a forth hit or waiting for my pet to kill it.
    I see. When I ran into that problem, I solved it by increasing my damage via equipment and weapon upgrades. I also kept one damage skill at a low level to keep its mana cost low (blazing scarab is a good choice since you get it early on and most people don't seem to like it). If the mob has a sliver of life left, you can finish it off with that skill with minimal mana use.

    Of course now as a heavy hybrid I just whack it a few times with my sword. Don't forget that you can do that too regardless of build.
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Lv.90
    Baby Hercules 2672*.8=2137.6
    Vericose Scorpion: 3336*.6=2001.6
    Source of data: http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/petstat.php

    -This doesn't take into account any dmg multipliers though which would change the ranking.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2009

    I see. When I ran into that problem, I solved it by increasing my damage via equipment and weapon upgrades. I also kept one damage skill at a low level to keep its mana cost low (blazing scarab is a good choice since you get it early on and most people don't seem to like it). If the mob has a sliver of life left, you can finish it off with that skill with minimal mana use.

    Haha great idea! I will try that next time b:thanks

    @ tweakz

    It will be a while till I get a herc... since I'm planning to get nix first. I'm not really a TT person and I would prefer to grind or doing TT with my guild instead of soloing it. I've heard that PW-cn actually lowered the drop rate for venos who solo TT with herc/any other pet, not sure if it is true...
    Moved to WoW b:bye
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    @ tweakz

    It will be a while till I get a herc... since I'm planning to get nix first. I'm not really a TT person and I would prefer to grind or doing TT with my guild instead of soloing it. I've heard that PW-cn actually lowered the drop rate for venos who solo TT with herc/any other pet, not sure if it is true...

    There's a ton of rumors about PW, many being fake.

    I went out and got a Varicose Scorpion today and it's lv. 40 already. I'd now recommend the OP get one of the lv. 2 Scorpions after looking closer at these. They level fast to 40 and have a lot of potential for their ground dps. Any advantage they have in base atk will get multiplied with bash, flesh ream, etc. -(so start low lvl). I did notice this pet was awefully delicate. First pet that's not only died on me leveling on ~lv.30 araneids/scorps but died multiple times lol.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    The level two scorpions are indeed great pets, however I'd still be interested in seeing the side by side stat comparisons (will eventually get them myself, if nobody else determines them).

    I know that the Lv.2 scorpions will come out best, but some people (myself included) place a certain amount of value on the aesthetics as well.

    It will be interesting to see what degree of attack loss is incurred by choosing an yellow/orange/red scorpion (19, 20, 28 respectively) over the level two blues.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    tweakz wrote: »
    There's a ton of rumors about PW, many being fake.

    I went out and got a Varicose Scorpion today and it's lv. 40 already. I'd now recommend the OP get one of the lv. 2 Scorpions after looking closer at these. They level fast to 40 and have a lot of potential for their ground dps. Any advantage they have in base atk will get multiplied with bash, flesh ream, etc. -(so start low lvl). I did notice this pet was awefully delicate. First pet that's not only died on me leveling on ~lv.30 araneids/scorps but died multiple times lol.

    Hopefully that rumor is not true... But I did read a lot about it on the PW-CN forum :(

    Do you happen to have the stats for the lvl2 scorpion when it is lvl28? If not, could you please post the stats of the lvl2 scorpion when it's lvl40? I'm just going to lvl mine up tomorrow to see compare the stat difference.
    The level two scorpions are indeed great pets, however I'd still be interested in seeing the side by side stat comparisons (will eventually get them myself, if nobody else determines them).

    I know that the Lv.2 scorpions will come out best, but some people (myself included) place a certain amount of value on the aesthetics as well.

    It will be interesting to see what degree of attack loss is incurred by choosing an yellow/orange/red scorpion (19, 20, 28 respectively) over the level two blues.

    Aesthetic is the ONLY reason I did not choose the lvl2 scorpion b:laugh

    I mean... You don't see a lot of red scorpions walking around... and her base skills are not bad for her lvl. So if the stats are not too awfully different, I might go with the lvl28 just for the look lol After all, like tweakz said, it is a disposable pet after I get legendary.
    Moved to WoW b:bye
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Sorry, I went from level 6 to 40 all in one area, then to 56 in another. Gonna try to finish leveling on OMA.

    at 56 -Varicose:
    1589 HP
    3695 Phys Res
    1348 Damage
    .6 atk rate
    1502 Phys Atk
    4433 Mag Res
    770 Evade
    6.7 M/S

    at 61 -Varicose:
    1726 HP
    4028 Phys Res
    1465 Damage
    .6 atk rate
    1728 Phys Atk
    4833 Mag Res
    837 Evade
    6.8 M/S
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 215 Arc User
    edited June 2009
    Thanks for the stats. I'm gonna try catching up with my scorpion lol
    Moved to WoW b:bye
  • Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Well, at long last I have the results between the Varicose and Weeping Queen scorpions.

    I was interested in not just their difference at 28, but also how they grew over time, and thus what the difference became at higher levels. This turned out to be more of an undertaking than I had anticipated, and thus I shall document my methodology as well as findings.

    1. Stat Collection
    I levelled the Varicose from 2-30, and the Weeping from 28-30. All stats were documented every level.

    2. Growth Patterns
    Scorpions' growth patterns are for the most part simple. The location of any given scorpion's progression in most patterns can be determined within three levels. The patterns are:

    HP: 27, 28 ...
    Accuracy: 23, 23, 24 ...
    Evasion: 13, 13, 14 ...
    P.Defense: 66, 67, 67, ...
    M.Defense: 80, ...

    Speed appears to increase by 0.1 m/s every 11 levels, however as I only received two iterations on the varicose scorpion, I am not completely confident in this assessment.

    Attack was, as expecteed, a bit more of a hassle. I decided to take all measurements while the scorpions were Loyal (>=500). While the growth increases each iteration, this increase appears to be accurately approximated through linear regression. Consider:

    Varicose Attack by Level
    Varicose Attack Growth by Level

    The trendline shows the formula for attack growth. Interestingly. to model the growth for the varicose scorpion, the formula's output should round to the nearest number - I was expecting it to be truncated. Using the formula and rounding, the formula accurately predicts all the varicose scorpion all the way to 30 (where I stopped levelling it). The result at level 90 is 3327, which I feel is remarkably close to Ecatomb's listed value of 3336. The formula, for a varicose scorpion:

    ATK_Growth(x) = 0.6051x + 9.266

    Where X is either the level of your varicose scorpion, or the result of (2-A)/10+Y ; wherein A is the starting level of your own scorpion and Y is its current level, yielding its varicose-equivalent growth.

    Initial examination of the data I had for the weeping led me to believe it had a different growth pattern (argh!) - however fortunately this appears not to be the case. I happened to remember qin9's posted formula and seems to describe the Weeping's growth. The weeping follows the same formula, but three levels later than the varicose.

    3. Extrapolation
    Using the discovered growth patterns, I generated a table from start to level 90 for each of the two pets. Using a VLOOKUP function, I can examine each of the two scorpions at any given level according to predictions, or measurements when available.

    4. Validation
    As mentioned, while the formula held for levels 1-30 of the varicose, it should be verified against known figures. Consider tweakz' and ecatomb's figures for the varicose:

    Stat - Accepted - Calculated

    Level 56
    HP - 1589 - 1589
    Atk - 1502 - 1500
    Acc - 1348 - 1348
    Eva - 770 - 770
    P.Def - 3695 - 3695
    M.Def - 4433 - 4433
    Speed - 6.7 - 6.7


    Level 90
    HP - 2524 - 2528
    Atk - 3336 - 3327
    Acc - 2141 - 2141
    Eva - 1223 - 1223
    P.Def - 5961 - 5961
    M.Def - 7153 - 7153
    Speed - 7.0 - 7.0


    As can be seen, the results are pretty darn close.

    5. Implications
    - "But Peritia, we all know the varicose is better! What's the point?!"
    As I see it, with this type of knowledge we can:

    - Quantify the difference between pets of the same family at any given level
    - Predict stats for any given pet once the growth patterns of a single member of its family have been determined, using qin9's formula

    Then again, perhaps I'm just silly for finding this kind of work interesting.

    6. Results
    So, back to the original purpose of this investigation, let's compare the varicose and weeping at a few levels:

    Stat - Varicose - Weeping

    Level 30 (measured)
    HP - 874 - 802
    Atk - 575 - 505
    Acc - 741 - 681
    Eva - 423 - 389
    P.Def - 1961 - 1788
    M.Def - 2353 - 2145
    Speed - 6.4 - 7.0


    Level 50 (predicted)
    HP - 1424 - 1352
    Atk - 1250 - 1143
    Acc - 1208 - 1147
    Eva - 690 - 655
    P.Def - 3295 - 3121
    M.Def - 3953 - 3745
    Speed - 6.6 - 7.1


    Level 80 (predicted)
    HP - 2249 - 2177
    Atk - 2717 - 2556
    Acc - 1908 - 1847
    Eva - 1090 - 1055
    P.Def - 5295 - 5121
    M.Def - 6353 - 6145
    Speed - 6.9 - 7.4


    7. Afterword
    Thanks for reading this far! If you're reading this, you're probably wondering why you read it all... Which is still an improvement over my own wondering why I bothered to do all this work and writing. xD

    I hope to make a more general version of the spreadsheet so it can be more quickly adapted to any two pets of the same family. I'll probably get around to posting the spreadsheet for these calculations sometime tomorrow.

    Comments, thoughts and suggestions are both welcome and appreciated!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Thanks for reading this far! If you're reading this, you're probably wondering why you read it all... Which is still an improvement over my own wondering why I bothered to do all this work and writing. xD

    /Applaud for a really nice job.
  • Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Thank you Peritia!

    I think that post deserves it's own thread, or to be moved to the OP!

    That +.5m/s is very appealing while the difference in other stats will probably not be as well felt.

    Grats on having a beautiful scorpion with those stats!

    As mentioned, I put claw on my Varicose. I've been very happy with my scorpion's performance on 9 tailed firefoxes. It's certainly better than using a Nix from the air. There's been some occasions where a Nix hits a fox just after my scorpion and my scorpion holds aggro. I've also hit a fox, had a nix hit before my scorpion, and my scorpion acquired and kept aggro. I gotta say though that I'm still very pleased with my Eldergoth Marksman and wish I had claw for that as well.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited July 2009
    Peritia is my hero. <3
  • Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Then again, perhaps I'm just silly for finding this kind of work interesting.

    I hope to make a more general version of the spreadsheet so it can be more quickly adapted to any two pets of the same family. I'll probably get around to posting the spreadsheet for these calculations sometime tomorrow.

    Comments, thoughts and suggestions are both welcome and appreciated!

    no, unless i myself am just as silly (probably)

    i am very much interested in a spreadsheet for this, as i feel that formula would not only work with scorpions, but EVERY pet with that tier of attack growth.

    and if that is true, then all u need to figure out is the 5 or so tiers... so 5 pets to track... thats an experiment im willing to do...
  • Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Spreadsheets are cool. Like this one (all pets, all stats, and then some)

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=260362
  • Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited September 2009
    Spreadsheets are cool. Like this one (all pets, all stats, and then some)


    Well... yeah... kind of.

    im actually modding that sheet for my own use... theres quite a few holes in his data, plus info for things that dont exist. However, with the formula that qin9 posted, i have been able to get much of the missing data (except for base pet speeds) if i can get a sheet for each attack growth tier, then attk will be fairly easy to figure out for any kind of pet, at any level...

    unfortunately i forgot to take into account the fact that i suck at math...

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