Are you as good as an Axe bm?

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear · February 2009

Okay well I have a question i was wondering about, now without a question you cannot compare a Barb to a BM when tanking those huge bosses.

But takeing Mobs in FB pre boss I experience this:

Barb: great tank I don't have to worry about healing them much but when i do this happens - they do flesh ream on 1 mob but are being attacked by 3 mobs so I heal the barb and all of a sudden the other mobs attack me, In that case the barb does his AoE agro skill but unfortuantly that skill has a long cool down and he can't do it that often.

Axe BM: I need to heal slightly more often but they have ALOT of AoEs, so they AoE the mobs and I can heal them without any trouble, the mobs never agro me because he is constantly AoEing the Mobs i can heal/attack without any worries of the mobs getting their hate onto me.

so in this scenario would a bm be a better tank or?

fuzzles · February 2009

Ugh.. okay. Righto..

In any situation where you're taking on numerous mobs as well as a boss.. either you're doing an easy FB, in which case a **** in a bag could tank it just as well as either a barb or a BM.... or you're doing that painfully ridiculous late TT boss which spawns those little mobs.

Basically, a BM will never ever ever ever ever be as good a tank as a barb.

As for the tanking multiple mobs, and then healing and having the aggro transfer to you... That's both your fault and the barb's fault. He should have AoEd them. And you shouldn't have healed until he did AoE them.

But more importantly.. a BM will never be a better tank than a barb against anything that matters.

Oh, and slightly off-topic.. bit of an FYI... give your tank some credit. He usually won't suddenly keel over dead if you stop spamming heal on him against mobs. Because I can tell you, there is nothing more annoying then being about to AoE when the cleric suddenly throws an unnecessary heal at you, draws aggro, then complains at you for not AoEing them.

Having said that though, if the barb doesn't AoE, or at least hit all the attacking mobs once, and then dies because you don't heal him.. they deserve it.

Samsamsimply - Heavens Tear · February 2009

yeah i agree with fuzzles. Although I dont mind trying to tank in a pinch, if your barb is polished at what he is supposed to do, he will hold aggro on multiples. It is really easy for them to get into the habit of running up on one mob and flesh ream to get quick aggro but rely on just his presence to aggro any additional mob near him. If your barb gets into the habit of pulling aggro on the multiple mobs up front it will be an easier life for both or you. As a Bm, we use our Aoes because we like all the pretty lights...so it is already habit.b:laugh

Anyway, i have run fbs with good barbs and bad barbs, and it makes a world of difference. As a Bm, it can grow very tiresome to run up to a mob you think the tank has aggro on only to find the mob takes off and runs after your cleric so your left chasing it and no good way to pull it back until it stops and hits your cleric.

that is really what I view my job as a Bm mainly though, to pick up the mob that the tank is not focusing on and hope at the very least that mod decides to focus on me instead of my cleric...

Live cleric = happy party

AlpineFrost - Lost City · February 2009

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay well I have a question i was wondering about, now without a question you cannot compare a Barb to a BM when tanking those huge bosses.

But takeing Mobs in FB pre boss I experience this:

Barb: great tank I don't have to worry about healing them much but when i do this happens - they do flesh ream on 1 mob but are being attacked by 3 mobs so I heal the barb and all of a sudden the other mobs attack me, In that case the barb does his AoE agro skill but unfortuantly that skill has a long cool down and he can't do it that often.

Axe BM: I need to heal slightly more often but they have ALOT of AoEs, so they AoE the mobs and I can heal them without any trouble, the mobs never agro me because he is constantly AoEing the Mobs i can heal/attack without any worries of the mobs getting their hate onto me.

so in this scenario would a bm be a better tank or?

I'd just like to point out one thing. I stopped reading your post after the first line of the "Barb:" section. If you have a tank that knows what they are doing you wont pull aggro just cause you healed them. My advice would be to get a better tank that actually knows how to play a barb. OR maybe its not the tanks fault at all, perhaps you are healing too soon? If you heal before the tank has a chance to aggro all the mobs, of course the ones that arnt aggroed yet are going to run after you. Maybe all you need is a bit more communication.

And do you seriously have to ask WR vs. WB: which can tank better? You sir are a big pile of fail.

Also arn't you the idiot that thinks clerics can Rick-roll Mages?! fack just give up and die already.

firefang11 · February 2009

axe BM's are good in all but when it comes to how long they can last they freaking suck i already have 1.6k of health with my barb at lvl 22 and with a BM that most of the equipment is done towards health and vit the BM still dies a lot quicker then my barb...and if you are having a problem with the mobs going towards you when they should have continued attacking the tank if he even pulled agro then you an the barb are in need of major help becuae that is just ridiculous!

Ntxhuav - Sanctuary · February 2009

fuzzles wrote: »

Ugh.. okay. Righto..

In any situation where you're taking on numerous mobs as well as a boss.. either you're doing an easy FB, in which case a **** in a bag could tank it just as well as either a barb or a BM.... or you're doing that painfully ridiculous late TT boss which spawns those little mobs.

Basically, a BM will never ever ever ever ever be as good a tank as a barb.

As for the tanking multiple mobs, and then healing and having the aggro transfer to you... That's both your fault and the barb's fault. He should have AoEd them. And you shouldn't have healed until he did AoE them.

But more importantly.. a BM will never be a better tank than a barb against anything that matters.

Oh, and slightly off-topic.. bit of an FYI... give your tank some credit. He usually won't suddenly keel over dead if you stop spamming heal on him against mobs. Because I can tell you, there is nothing more annoying then being about to AoE when the cleric suddenly throws an unnecessary heal at you, draws aggro, then complains at you for not AoEing them.

Having said that though, if the barb doesn't AoE, or at least hit all the attacking mobs once, and then dies because you don't heal him.. they deserve it.

I totally agree with everything you just say. Clerics just need to learn when to heal and when not to heal. Barbs should know to aoe all the mobs that he doesn't have aggro on.

The ferenczy - Sanctuary · February 2009

the good thing about clerics is they are always trying to help.
the bad thing about clerics is they are always trying to help.

cleric sees a barb down to half life and think holly **** i only have less than 1k for half life. these mobs it me hard i have to heal my tank. then zap zap zap witht he iron heart. and there goes agro from the mob you haven't had a chance to agro yet. there goes the cleric. clerics need to make firends with thier barbs. and barbs make friends with thier clerics. and work alot together.

Seablue - Sanctuary · February 2009

The ferenczy - Sanctuary wrote: »

and there goes agro from the mob you haven't had a chance to agro yet. there goes the cleric.

Yea but the good thing is we bms are here to take care of it

. If we died at least the cleric is safe.

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear · February 2009

Barb - getting attacked by 3 mobs
barb - not aoeing them all
barb - slowly dying
cleric - heals
cleric - gets attacked by some of the mobs
cleric - is squishy
cleric - dies

Arravis - Lost City · February 2009

Barbs are most likely the best single-target tankers in game, due to their ability to draw aggression with one attack [Flesh Ream], not just stack threat.

Barbarians have two no-chi-cost aoes in tiger form, an aggro hold move, and a debuff move, both of which can be used to be draw instant aggro. The downfall is that both have a severe cooldown, are much weaker than a bm aoe spamming, and can take a small second to cast; if the cleric if spam healing, he/she might draw aggro for a bit. So it's honestly not a good idea to take on too many elite mobs all at once with a barb. Get a lurer.

Seablue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yea but the good thing is we bms are here to take care of it . If we died at least the cleric is safe.

Very true comment. I have run countless HHs where at least at some point, I tanked multiple mobs and lost aggro of one mob which ended up running to the cleric or archer. Thankfully, there's normally a BM there to stun lock and tank a bit. b:thanks

Melaficus - Sanctuary · June 2009

The job of Barb is to tank the job of cleric is to heal the barb the job of Bms is to keep the cleric alive. This the way it is supposed to be.

Stickygreen - Heavens Tear · June 2009

barb > bm in aoe tanking, why? simple. use sunder. have your party assist attack the barb. bye bye mob, and tank will still have aggro on other mobs, surf impact can also be used.

Hazardus - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Wth? Why necro this old thread?

Stickygreen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Use sunder. Have your party assist attack the barb. bye bye mob, and tank will still have aggro on other mobs, surf impact can also be used.

Quoted for truth. Sunder's not just a grinding tool b:laugh. True it needs two sparks and all, but its damage+bleed+heal is just awesome.

Also I think the aoe roar skill isn't all that great. It resets aggro (imho) and the aggro it generates is just enough to overcome the cleric's heal. If anyone so much as tickles a mob thats not been fleshreamed, then its gonna run to you.

A major help to maintain aggro is bramble guard. Venos must ensure that the tank is always brambled and full with chi. Generally when I run into a mob cluster, I lay one fleshream on each mob and that sees it through to the end (everyone using assist attack).

Wolfgore - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Basicaly if you got a barb that knows how to play you cant even compare him to a BM.

Now...If we are talking about 3-4 high lvl TT mobs: Roar to hold aggro and dont lose it with heal > Fleash ream each of them once > Focus on the one team is hitting > Fleash ream the other mobs as needed.

If we are talking about large group of mobs in low lvl FBs: Tank gathers a lot of mobs > 1 hit em all with Armaggedon > no need for cleric to heal him b:bye

Randoms - Dreamweaver · June 2009

Well, while its true that tanking is Barbs job and BM sometimes have to help out, personally I when I see mob running at cleric start to shoot at him, or if its more than one I can use my AoE to take their attention till barb takes agro back. Even if I die its no big deal, I am there to things go faster, and its not like LightArmors cant take few hits.

If barb havent gotten agro back till I am dead he is just fail.

Thanks for attention.b:thanks

_Shalimar_ - Sanctuary · June 2009

Personally I feel that a WB can aoe almost as well as a WR. I have a skill setup I use when I'm tanking multiple mobs. I start with Surf Impact, then Frighten. Then I switch to my normal form and cast Swell then Slam. Then return to True Form, Surf Impact, Sunder, switch, Swell, Slam, switch, Surf Impact. I can't remember a time that an aoe fight went longer than this. I also still have two powerful aoe aggro skills as backup. Roar is classic and very helpful. Alpha Male is just a better version. If the squad focuses on one opponent, it dies fast. That reduces repair costs, ensures that I don't lose agro, and the WR in squad can relax and not freak out, as well as the EP not having to worry.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary · June 2009

I would say when it come to normal questing and killing of bosses outside a BM is better to have around.BM just needs to be healed while they kill a boss.It doesn't take that long either.

Lycanthar - Sanctuary · June 2009

I don't think there's any arguements to be made against AOE BM's being better at tanking multiple mobs than a Barb. I mean, thats the purpose of their entire existance; to aggro multiple mobs. Barbs are meant to tank hard hitting single-shot badasses like Master of Percussion for example.

It's not that we can't do it, its just much easier for a BM to hold all the aggro when dealing with multiples. Easier and faster. Whenever I would run TT, I would ask the BM to tank the majority of the mobs while I DD'd with AOE and/or took some of the aggro off him/her. Bosses then were my responsibility. In my experience this setup is the fastest and safest route. Not to mention the best TT squads have 1+ veno's in the mix, which makes tanking multiple that much easier. C'mon ppl... PWI isn't hard, lol.

Nethare - Dreamweaver · June 2009

Randoms - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, while its true that tanking is Barbs job and BM sometimes have to help out, personally I when I see mob running at cleric start to shoot at him, or if its more than one I can use my AoE to take their attention till barb takes agro back. Even if I die its no big deal, I am there to things go faster, and its not like LightArmors cant take few hits.
If barb havent gotten agro back till I am dead he is just fail.

I completely agree here, i have alot of really awesome BM and Barb friends. That all know how to do their job very well. Now a BM does not have to think as much about holding aggro on multiple mobs, they do it when aoe grinding alone all the time, but the barb with a little thought like some of the ones who have posted here have shown can do it just as well and honestly will never die doing it, a barb with no hp charm is just fail and they normally dont even need it, the BM might need the cleric's help or tic their charm a couple of times. But on the issue of the mob the barb does not hold w/e its 1-3 mobs max, if its more than that find a new barb he is not thinking, and when those few mobs come what are your dds doing. Me as an archer i am shooting each one of them then when they come to kill me I pop winged shell and wait for the BM as secondary tank, the Barb if there is not a BM, to come and hit them. But he is right if I die not a huge problem, much better than a dead cleric, but I dont die when i do this. If there are enough mobs that got away from the barb that they have the attack strength to break my Winged shell, get past my hp charm, potions and tree of protection and the clerics 1-2 heals late in this sequence to kill me all before the tanks get aggro back something is wrong. Last note I agree that BMs vs Barbs at tanking is not even a contest. The barb wins flat out because he can do it all by himself whereas the bm will need the cleric some. The barb i never have to worry about getting aggro unless it is my fault for hitting the wrong mob, the one he has not hit yet, but with bms i can get aggro with 2 crits and on bosses with barbs i dont have to wait to start for nearly as long as i do with bms. So as a tank i want the barb to be honest but as secondary tanks bms still can do the job, they just need some help.

_Shalimar_ - Sanctuary · June 2009

Nethare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

a barb with no hp charm is just fail

Please help me understand how a WB with no charm is a failure. I never have a guardian charm, yet I can still tank world bosses, fb89, TT90, etc. I don't see the point in a charm, since when I am killing things I go down to about 3k health after roughly 7-8 kills, at which point I cast ToP and continue. If I had a charm, grinding would kill it. The only way to save the charm is by making sure I don't drop below half, which is expensive to my genie. Put simply, I can't afford 1-2 gold guardian charms every day, nor do I need them.

Nethare - Dreamweaver · June 2009

Ok I respect that you don't use an HP charm fine I don't like telling people how to play their character and I have not played a barb in this game so i can't really speek to it anyway so i won't. Plus i am more refering to pvp and the charm in pve is not needed but makes thing alot easier. But lets compare, barb with HP charm vs barb without. Say the barb in this example has 10000hp for round numbers.

Without an hp charm -> attackers, which can be mobs, bosses or other players is most relevant in respect to other players, have to do 10000 damage plus damage to negate any healing the barb uses, pots, tree of protection, etc. This is no easy task barbs are hard to kill, kinda the point.

With and hp charm -> attackers have to deal 5000 damage while negating healing etc, THEN do another 10000 damage while negating healing but this 10k damage has to be done in under 10 seconds which is near impossible with pots and healing helping the barb. If you fail in that 10seconds you get to try again, and again. Almost impossible for anything other than wizards etc. If the point of a barb is to maximize survivability in order to tank then the one with the charm is far more effective. Now barbs without charms can pull it off but why. Charms are not that expensive really and make the barb alot harder to kill.

_Shalimar_ - Sanctuary · June 2009

I know that a heiro makes it a lot harder to kill a WB, but I also am already able to tank anything that my friends and I need me to tank. I don't pvp at the current time other than friendly dueling. Once I do start pk, I will have a charm otherwise it is just idiotic. But they are expensive for me. I just can't afford 2-3 heiros every day when there are other things I need to do with the money. If I had the money for them, I would have them. It is simply a matter of prioritization for me.

Hazardus - Heavens Tear · June 2009

Umm, dont wanna tell you how to play, but you shouldn't really be going under 50% HP while grinding too often (unless maybe you have a beserk weapon like XS).

I prefer to grind until I'm almost 50% HP and then I just sunder. Much cheaper than letting the heiro tick or using any pots. I personally always use a MP charm. HP charm is nice to have for those 'uh-oh' moments in an FB, when your alclarity misses or if your cleric lags.

For all our puffed up HPs, barbs aint squat without a good cleric at your back (in Fbs,TT and stuff ofc).

_Shalimar_ - Sanctuary · June 2009

I always have a mana charm also, and I do have Calamity. It seems that the Berserk goes off about 1 in 2-3 attacks for me.

Clerics ftw.

Are you as good as an Axe bm?

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