What generally makes P2P mmos better than free ones?

Stickygreen - Heavens Tear wrote: »

no cash shop = better, fair-er grounds for gameplay, mostly in the PvP area.

Not really.


In a P2P game whoever has the most amount of time to dedicate to the game will have the advantage. Especially in the PvP area.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

PvE servers are, generally speaking, a new thing in MMOs, and some P2P MMOs don't have PvE servers.

The first 3D MMORPG (Everquest) was mostly just PvE servers with a small number of PvP servers (since most of the players were not interested in that). The second one (Asheron's Call) was also all PvE servers except for one PvP server. Both companies learn from the mistake of their 2D predecessor (Ultima Online) that forcing players to be fodder for sociopaths does not always lead to the best subscription results.

The F2P market on the other hand is only just starting to join the bandwagon and have PvE servers. It took them a while to realize that the additional players you gain by having PvE servers more than makes up for the loss of revenue that comes from the players not being forced to use the cash shop to avoid being ganked by player-killers.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally I like it. Hardcore players end up paying the most, while casual players pay the least. To me that makes it more "fair" than a P2P system where everyone pays the same monthly fee, and the casual players in effect end up subsidizing the hardcore players.

That is actually one of the best parts of F2P games. Pretty much all games are based around the needs of the most hardcore players. They play the most, run through the content the most quickly, and whine the most when they feel their is nothing left to do. So much developer time is spent appealing to them because they are the vocal minority that claims that all attention should be focused on them because all the other players are still busy with the lower level content that they already blew through. High level dungeons in most games are horrific grinds solely to assure that hardcore players will not run out of things to do (because nothing keeps hardcore players busy like 6 hour dungeons with 1% drop rates on items). At least a F2P system has those hardcore players spending the most money to keep the game going. If they are going to use the most resources and get most of the development time focused on them, then they should be paying more.

Cat - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1 mount here is on average $50. Thats 5 months of gameplay on the p2p game I play.

* They have more mods/updates/exspanions more often. Once again the P2P game I play has added I think around 8-12 expansions in the past 3 years. Thats alot more than most f2p games I have played.

Well, honestly only the super mounts are $50. The average mount is more like $30 with $10 mounts for people that do not want to pay so much extra for 1 or 2 extra speed and a more showy animal.

And P2P games definitely have more expansions, but that is because they sell them. There will always be more of whatever brings in revenue. Cash shop games tend to have many more mounts because they make money selling them and F2P have more expansions because they make money selling them.

thankssir wrote: »

so it depends mostly on GM activity and bugs?? does gameplay, like quests, grinding time, TW similar things are generally the same?

I can only speak for 2 p2p MMO's, being WOW and EQ, and my knowledge of EQ is about 5 years old.
In WOW there is no grinding. There are (more than) enough quests to get you to max level without ever having to grind. As well as that there are many daily quests. The quests are far more inspired than in PW. For example you have quests where you fly a small plane and have to gun down large birds. Or you have a quest where you board a zeppelin and drop bombs on pirate ships. There also lots of collect quests where you have to click on static items on the ground, but of course theres monsters that spawn around it. Sometimes you get to disguide yourself so most of the monsters wont attack you, but theres always a few that can see through the disguise. Another quest which is widely used is the escort quest, where you have to follow an npc through some predetermined route (some they follow you) and keep it safe from various enemies that wander and spawn around you.
Few of the quests require a group.
Questing in PW is very shallow and weak compared to WOW.

In EQ there isnt as much emphasis on questing, and the xp from it is fairly poor. Most people level up by forming groups stat camp in 1 place and theres a puller who goes out and brings the mobs back to be killed. Most of the mobs are too hard to solo, except for certain classes, and even then its not really worth it to solo in general. Groups get rather large xp bonuses for just being in a group.

There is no TW in everquest. In WOW there are battlegrounds which run 24/7, and you can jst turn up and get placed in a team and get to fight for reward points, which you can then use to buy pvp gear which is quite good, but focused on the sorts of things youd need in pvp. Eg prists would tend to get stuff with more health and armor, rather than mana regen to last you through a 10 minute fight as you would get in pve.

The major problem with both WOW and EQ though is that the majority of players tend to hit the level cap rather quickly (since there is no grind), and then its just a chase for gear, and then the have' and have not's are differentiated by who you know and who gets int the big guilds. This is particularly the case in everquest where there are lots of locked zones that you can only get acces to by doing some quest chain that usually involves killing some mob which requires 60-80 people in a raid, so only the few top guilds get to go there.

To be in one of the best guild in WOW or EQ usually requires that you spend at least 20 hours a week doing/learning various raids with your guild. I was in the top (for a while) guild on our server in WOW, and we used to spend at least 6 hours a day, 5 days a week raiding. Quite often the raids would go on for 8 or 10 hours tho, depending on if we were just farming an instance, or learning it. Then next expansion comes and you find all that nice gear you spent so much time getting is obsoleted by quest rewards from solo missions in the next expansions, that anyone can get with 30 minutes questing. Kinda leaves you wondering what the point of it all was.

erethizon1 wrote: »

You just hit the nail on the head for why I find gear to be so unmotivating. What is the point of spending so much time getting the best item when it is just going to be replaced later by an even better one? It is really a bummer that all the "end game" content focuses on items rather than intrinsic character improvement. I just cannot get motivated by stuff. When my character hits the advancement cap I just leave the game never to return. Games really need to focus more on allowing the character to improve for the entire length of the game rather than just his stuff. Whether it be levels or some type of alternate advancement does not matter as long as it never ends. That is one of things I like about PWI's levels 100-105. Getting to 105 would take such a long time that most people will never do it, but it gives us a point to playing other than to just get items.

level cap in china is 150 right?.. thats scary, since the exp from 104-105 will level you from 1-104... imagine exp from 105-106b:shocked

erethizon1 wrote: »

You just hit the nail on the head for why I find gear to be so unmotivating. What is the point of spending so much time getting the best item when it is just going to be replaced later by an even better one? It is really a bummer that all the "end game" content focuses on items rather than intrinsic character improvement. I just cannot get motivated by stuff. When my character hits the advancement cap I just leave the game never to return. Games really need to focus more on allowing the character to improve for the entire length of the game rather than just his stuff. Whether it be levels or some type of alternate advancement does not matter as long as it never ends. That is one of things I like about PWI's levels 100-105. Getting to 105 would take such a long time that most people will never do it, but it gives us a point to playing other than to just get items.

There are two avenues for character improvement: level and gear. While a character advances through levels gaining higher stats and attributes they also get better and better gear. When they hit the level cap they stop improving through level advancement, but they can continue to improve by getting better gear. Unless a character is at the level cap, has gotten the best gear possible there is always room to improve the character.

What you want is to be able to permanently be able to improve base stats forever which has the side-effect of a.) permanently disrupting the balance towards those who have played the longest b.) making it harder and harder for those just starting to ever have a chance to catch-up, c.) starts making content more and more trivial for them, and d.) if the level cap ever gets increased gives those who were at the level cap longest a permanent advantage over everyone who either hadn't been at the level cap yet, or wasn't there as long.

As long as the only avenue at the level cap to improve a character is gear, then everyone else has a chance to catch up because the only thing they have to catch up to is gear and level because if there isn't then a lot of people would probably simply give up.

I agree with most of the posts here except that HP charms and MP charms help the "support" classes that can not physically take hits, be able to solo and do things on their own instead of constantly needing a barb/bm's help.

Unfair as it may be for blademasters or barbs to have the same thing, consider this I have a cleric that at level 29 has 800hp. And I"ve put quite a few points on vitality to get it that high. My husband a level 29 barb as well have almost 3,000hp. He gets irritated because I can kill things my level in 2 to 3 hits while it takes him much much more. However; I can only be hit 2 or 3 times by something and die while he can take endless hits.(in theory). The charms help clerics/wizards/archers be on a more equal playing field with the rest of the classes. However; there is nothing in cs that would make it where a barb can deal more damage so with that said, I see your point.

I often tell my husband a pay to play game would be cheaper. Then he reminds me, we do NOT have to pay anything to play this, we choose to.

That said.. let me remind you what keeps this F2P; (the cash shop spenders).

This poses me to start another thread.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As I stated before, it would unbalance the game to allow base stats to be permanently improved through artificial means.



Ok, go find someone with +12 gear that is the same as yours, fight them and see who wins.

You, or the guy with +12 gear. I'd bet my bottom dollar that the guy with +12 gear will beat you every time because they put 1000s more time into the game than you did.

The only person who thinks someone is competing with them is you, and the only person who can end your gaming experience is you, and no one else.

you think someone with full +12 gear worked for all of it with ingame coins? and did it all themselves? b:chuckle

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I took the time to replace "intrinsic" with the correct term "base stats".


It isn't a matter of semantics; both gear AND level advancement improve a character. Gear improves a character by increasing their base stats, so you are actually wrong. A character using a one star glaive will have worse stats than if they were using a two or three star glaive of the same type, and they would be better off using the two or three star glaive instead because it increases their stats more than the one star glaive would.

The player that leveled to 100 with the best gear got there faster than the player with the worst gear. They killed mobs faster, they completed quests faster, they made more coin faster.


Why do you insist on calling permanent items "temporary buffs" when they cannot be dispelled and statically enhance your character as long as they are equipped and don't required activating to do so? If I log on, my gear enhances my character, and when I log off it still enhances my character waiting for me to log back on. I have a wizard with a Mirage Sword. Is that a "temporary buff" because I might replace it in 15ish levels? Aren't "temporary buffs" those spells that are cast on characters to improve their stats for a short period of time, and then go away? That is why you are wrong to call equipment which statically increases a characters stats "temporary".

The use of the words "base stats" does not replace my word intrinsic, because I am not talking about base stats, I am talking about what is permanently and forever a part of your character. I refer to items as temporary buffs because they only last as long as you wear the item. As soon as you replace one item with another all the time you spent getting that first item becomes wasted because you did not keep the improvements that it provided. You just let the item buff you temporarily.

I am currently working on getting level 83. When I get level 83 it can never be taken away from me. It will be a part of my character forever. If there were a way to get to level 84 without first reaching level 83 then I would skip right past 83 and go straight to 84. Every level lasts forever and every level must be earned to get to the next one. Items last only as long as you wear them and you can "skip" items without its having any permanent effect on your character. As you said, the person with the best gear will get to the max level faster. That is it. That is the only advantage. You look at two level 100 characters with the same items it makes no difference how each one got there and how quickly they did it because they are both the same. So why would I waste time pursuing temporary buffs? I am in no rush to be the first to do anything (since I am not in a competition), so it does not matter how long something takes me. What matters is that all my time is spent productively, and I do not take satisfaction spending countless hours pursuing temporary buffs that I am just going to replace later. I would rather pursue something that lasts forever (like reputation).

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It is not good for the game balance for them to be the strongest because their base stats were permanently improved by artificially inflating their stats by means other than level advancement.

You are entitled to your opinion even if it is actually wrong.
You're the one imagining someone is in competition with you, and it's you who is stopping yourself from improving your character, not anyone else or the game mechanics.

As I stated before, it would unbalance the game to allow base stats to be permanently improved through artificial means.

What do you mean artificial means? All I am talking about is there being no advancement cap. If anything, items are artificial means. More experienced characters are expected to be better at what they do. All I am saying is you should not reach a point where you are incapable of improving yourself (i.e. an advancement cap).

I am not imagining myself in a competition with anyone. I do not care what items other people have. I do not even care what items I have (since they do not motivate me since they will just be replaced later). What I care about is not having my character's ability to improve himself (not his stuff) halted. When I reach the level cap and there are no other intrinsic ways to improve my character, my character dies. The only people that are incapable of self-improvement (not stuff improvement) are dead people. Sure the character remains in a sort of suspended animation, but he still is not really alive. There is no satisfaction in playing with a dead character. I want my time to be spent improving the character (not his stuff). The game is not fun without the ability to do that.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok, go find someone with +12 gear that is the same as yours, fight them and see who wins.

You, or the guy with +12 gear. I'd bet my bottom dollar that the guy with +12 gear will beat you every time because they put 1000s more time into the game than you did.

The only person who thinks someone is competing with them is you, and the only person who can end your gaming experience is you, and no one else.

I am sure they would defeat me. I would never know for sure, because I do not PvP. Even in the half-dozen or so games that I have played that only had PvP servers I have never participated in PvP. When I get attacked I either stand there, run, or see how many buffs I can cast on them before they kill me (I always play support classes). I do not play these games to play against my fellow players. I play to play with them (all the while attaining satisfaction because my character is growing and improving himself).

For me, it is not about who is better, because I am not comparing myself to anyone else. I am only looking at me, what I was yesterday, and what I will be tomorrow. If my character is the same as he was yesterday and will remain the same tomorrow (because I am at an advancement cap) then I will not find the motivation to play because it will be pointless. You are right that only I decide when to end my gaming experience, and I decide to end it when my character dies (i.e. he is no longer capable of improving himself, but only his stuff).

I bring up competition not because I am imagining myself in a competition with other people, but because people constantly bring up this imaginary competition as the reason why my character has to have an advancement cap (even in games where no PvP of any kind exists). I would be more than happy to enter a gaming mode that removed the advancement cap and, at the same time, made it impossible for me to participate in any kind of PvP combat (including TW) forever. Then we could all agree that I am no longer part of any competition and I could advance as far as I wish without bother anyone. Of course, the people that use the competition excuse would never agree to this, because they imagine competition at every turn (not just in PvP). They constantly compare their damage outputs, and defense rankings, and everything else to the other players because they want to be the "best". If they did not have this mental disease that forces them to be the best, then my ability to improve my character would not have to be halted just to please them. Unfortunately, the disease is extremely common and the chances of a good quality game being made with unlimited advancement is very slim.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know what your problem is? You use vague terms and don't say what you mean, and expect everyone else to read your mind to figure out what you mean because you speak in circles.

Beyond that, your entire post is nonsense as is the one I tried to make sense of.

Interesting counterpoint.

The concept is simple. If someone were to **** into your account and do every horrible thing they could do to your character short of actually deleting it, what is left would be your intrinsic character improvements. Those are the improvements that are actually a part of the charter. They are not items that will be replaced at a later date. They are forever a part of your character. Those are what I value. Time spent improving the character is always time well spent. Time spend getting items that you will get rid of later is not (at least, not for me).

erethizon1 wrote: »

Interesting counterpoint.

The concept is simple. If someone were to **** into your account and do every horrible thing they could do to your character short of actually deleting it, what is left would be your intrinsic character improvements. Those are the improvements that are actually a part of the charter. They are not items that will be replaced at a later date. They are forever a part of your character. Those are what I value. Time spent improving the character is always time well spent. Time spend getting items that you will get rid of later is not (at least, not for me).

How do you level with no gear? b:puzzled

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I agree with erethizon1

didnt you quit or something?

erethizon1 wrote: »

Interesting counterpoint.

The concept is simple. If someone were to **** into your account and do every horrible thing they could do to your character short of actually deleting it, what is left would be your intrinsic character improvements. Those are the improvements that are actually a part of the charter. They are not items that will be replaced at a later date. They are forever a part of your character. Those are what I value. Time spent improving the character is always time well spent. Time spend getting items that you will get rid of later is not (at least, not for me).

Oh, I forgot to mention something: a character's gear is as much an intrinsic part of the character as anything else because the gear allows the character to reach their full potential. There is nothing that anyone could do to a digital object that could possibly be considered "horrible". I really think you've put too much effort into justifying not upgrading your characters gear while others around you do upgrade their gear and surpass you in level quicker.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

How do you level with no gear? b:puzzled

You are confusing a lack of motivation with a moral refusal. I am not unwilling to use gear, I am just not motivated to work hard for it. When I reach a level that has new equipment I head to the auction house and find a cheap version of that type of gear.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh, I forgot to mention something: a character's gear is as much an intrinsic part of the character as anything else because the gear allows the character to reach their full potential. There is nothing that anyone could do to a digital object that could possibly be considered "horrible". I really think you've put too much effort into justifying not upgrading your characters gear while others around you do upgrade their gear and surpass you in level quicker.

Intrinsic
1. belonging to a thing by its very nature: the intrinsic value of a gold ring.
2. Anatomy. (of certain muscles, nerves, etc.) belonging to or lying within a given part.

If you have the ability to take things apart and put them back together without need of a book or blueprints, then you have an intrinsic ability to tinker. If you have the ability to withstand extreme cold because of the clothes you are wearing, you do not have an intrinsic resistance to cold.

I do not feel any need to justify my gear because I do not find anything wrong with it. I am quite satisfied with the equipment I use. I am not even sure if my leveling rate is below average or not (I would assume so since I do not grind except for quests), because I have never stopped to compare myself to anyone.

I am in no rush to level. As was already covered in the thread, when I reach the max level I will leave the game because there will be nothing left for the game to offer me (since I am not motivated by items). That does not exactly encourage me to level quickly. I am torn by my desire to improve my character on the one hand and not have my game ended by reaching the level cap on the other hand. Thus rapid leveling is never a goal of mine.

As for the "horrible" things that can be done to your character I was referring to the deletion of all your money and items. In other words, removing everything that was not an intrinsic part of your character. All that stuff is temporary anyway. The money will be gone when you spend it and the items will be gone when you replace them with other items. I am motivated by the things that will always be a part of my character and not the things that are just temporary. My standards for what makes a good temporary item are pretty low (one star items are fine by me) since I know I will be getting rid of them before too long anyway.