Genienomics

aazadan
aazadan Posts: 0 Arc User
edited May 2009 in General Discussion
Stone Name	Stone Level	Item Name		Item Cost	Stones Given	Stamina per Stone	Cost Per Stone	Cost/Stamina
Yiyuan		1		Bison Horn Neck		570		7		40			81.43		2.04
Yiyuan		1		Wolf Fang Neck		1700		20		40			85		2.13
Liangyi		2		Tiger Bone Neck		3600		17		80			211.76		2.65
Santsai		3		Rhino Horn Neck		6400		16		160			400		2.5
Ssuhsiang	4		Dragon Scale Neck	10100		15		240			673.33		2.81
Wuhsing		5		Fire Eye Neck		14600		15		320			973.33		3.04
Liuho		6		Blood Shadow Neck	19800		14		400			1414.29		3.54
Chihsing	7									480 (assumed)		
Pakua		8									560 (assumed)		
Chiukung	9									640 (assumed)		
Perfect		10									720

I don't have the available coin to decompose Chihsing and Pakua, and I lack the tailoring skill for higher ones. The rest is confirmed first hand. I used necks as they seemed to be the cheapest item at level 1, and then I stuck with necks after that to be consistant. Notice, I did two Yiyuan, I did the second one using a level 3 item (Tiger Bone Neck) opposed to the level 1 item I initially used (Bison Horn Neck) because I was curious if the highest or lowest Yiyuan item was best. Cost/Stamina is the Cost per stone divided by Stamina per stone.

Furthermore, using this information. Looking at Tree of Protection level 1, which takes 200 Stamina, if you use the cheapest charging method it would be 408 coin to use. Considering it gives full HP, as long as you have atleast 537 hp it's cheaper to use than a vendor bought Large Health Potion.

This doesn't take into account the time it would take to buy more items, and decompose them which may shift the optimal value up a bit, as saving say 5000 coin on a charge run when you lose out on 10k in earnings from killing over that same time wouldn't leave you ahead, but that takes more calculations to figure out, and is highly dependent on how fast you're able to buy/sell/decompose compared to how quickly you can bring in coin from killing.
Post edited by aazadan on

Comments

  • Zephyrx - Lost City
    Zephyrx - Lost City Posts: 1,563 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    This is what I believe that Tree of Protection is overpowered...

    Use it on a high level Barbarian lv 80+ with over 7k HP.... Even without economics, the amount it heals makes it way too powerful.

    Well, I would think Tree of Protection needs a nerf or something. Or make it heal less over a great amount of time as it is as effective as a charm.. maybe even better since you can use it + charm to grant yourself invinciblity or something.

    Though.. thanks for the numbers of lv 5 and 6 stones b:laugh.

    And one thing to note, most people are actually selling the stones at outrageous prices rather than your calculated vendor prices. Shhhsssh don't tell anyone! b:chuckle

    P.S. You can convert 3 lower grade stone -> 1 higher grade stone.... b:chuckle
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  • aazadan
    aazadan Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I wasn't really trying to say if tree (or any other skill) is over/underpowered, just showing the value of using it compared to say a potion and what type of cost you'll have with other effects. For example, healing 2 is 500 stamina which means 1020 coin to have a 56% chance to stop bleed (genie dex is 40). Which would mean 1821.43 coin on average to stop it.

    It's really just to point out what types of costs you'll be looking at to use it and I suppose also a complaint that the items you can decompose with level 1 of a tradeskill are the most economical choice. You would think higher level tradeskills would get you a better ratio considering the cost involved in getting them, and lack of use outside of crafting TT items.
  • Zephyrx - Lost City
    Zephyrx - Lost City Posts: 1,563 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    aazadan wrote: »
    I wasn't really trying to say if tree (or any other skill) is over/underpowered, just showing the value of using it compared to say a potion and what type of cost you'll have with other effects. For example, healing 2 is 500 stamina which means 1020 coin to have a 56% chance to stop bleed (genie dex is 40). Which would mean 1821.43 coin on average to stop it.

    It's really just to point out what types of costs you'll be looking at to use it and I suppose also a complaint that the items you can decompose with level 1 of a tradeskill are the most economical choice. You would think higher level tradeskills would get you a better ratio considering the cost involved in getting them, and lack of use outside of crafting TT items.

    Well, if you show that 200 stamina could be obtained by 408 coins and it could potentially heal as much as your HP goes. that is basically 1 coin per 20+ HP. Clearly somewhat overpowered in my own thought.

    Yes, your point was not to show it is overpowered, but I merely decide to convey the idea that it is overpowered.

    Though I don't think it is that it is unreasonable that low level stones are most cost-efficent because ridiculous time saved by not using level 1 Magic Stones and using higher level stones can actually be accounted for. Since by your guide each item only give a minimal amount of stones from decomposing and you could literally waste hours trying to increase the stamina of your genie using low levels stones. In that hour time, you could have grinded and earned 100k. Clearly using low levels stones does pose significant draw backs in time wise.


    P.S. Trolling mode off ^_^... Too lazy to troll.
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  • aazadan
    aazadan Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    If you assume 2 seconds per click to put an item in the trade window (likely slow), 12 items per vendor run, that's 24 seconds to put items in the window, lets give it another 1 second for the buy button, that's 25 seconds to buy items. Call it another 6 per decompose (3 on the decompose?, 2 to put the item in, 1 to click), that's 72 seconds to decompose, plus lets call it 3 seconds to navigate to both the trade list and decompose, that's 25+72+3+3=103 seconds to do a decompose run of 84 stones for 3360 stamina. Lets say you're going for 100k stamina, that's 30 runs so 3090 seconds or 51 minutes 30 seconds for 100800 stamina, at 205632 coin.

    Next, lets use level 6 stones as those are the most time efficient of the ones I have the complete data for. Using the same times, it's still 103 seconds to do a decompose run which gets you 168 stones for 67200 stamina. In order to get 100k stamina, that's 2 runs, but really, I'm just going to use 1.5 runs (18 items) for 44 seconds in the trade list and 111 seconds decomposing (time to reach each menu included) for 155 seconds total. That's also 100800 stamina in 2 minutes 35 seconds for 356832 coin.

    That's a time difference of 48 minutes 55 seconds for 151200 coin which works out to 3091 coin per minute. When you're killing stuff for exp, is your coin rate atleast that high? If not, you would be better off using the low level stones still.

    Infact, lets take this a step further and use the level 3 items that give 20 Yiyuan stones per decompose, as that's the second best of my listed data (I should add a level 2 item in there just for completeness). Doing the exact same thing to buy items, every set of 12 items would give you 9600 stamina. At 100800 spirit (since the other two worked out to that value, I'll just aim for that to be consistent) it's 10.5 sets. 28 seconds to buy each set (16 seconds on the final set) is 296 seconds, plus 756 seconds of decomposing works out to 1052 seconds or 17 minutes 32 seconds to get 100800 spirit for 214200 coin. That means the level 6 stones would be saving you 14 minutes 57 seconds at a cost of 142632 additional coin. Are you able to generate 9540 coin per minute while killing? If not, you save money using the 20 Yiyuan decompose.

    Similarly, the 20 Yiyuan Stone decompose would save you 23 minutes 58 seconds, at a cost of only 8568 additional coin. So that would be the better option provided you generate at least 358 coin per minute (~21k/hour) which almost anyone can do as long as they're not an extremely low level.

    Of course, there's still the comeback of the value of exp/spirit in that same time but again, that comes down to your exp rate and the value you place on exp.
  • Padixeric - Sanctuary
    Padixeric - Sanctuary Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    hmmm ...
    let's look at manufacturing...

    make lvl2 items (poleblade - leaf cutter - for example) yourself.
    you get 33% chance for a 2*.
    -> that'll get you 162 lvl1 stones
    -> 1* is still 12 lvl1 stones

    cost (leaf cutter):
    - time to get/gather mats (pig iron and sandstone)
    - 2 red jade (just buy it)

    so at 2 red jades = 2 * 140 = 280
    let's assume 1k for each iron and sand : 2k

    makes 2280 for 162 stones - would be a whopping 14.something coin/stone
    lets assume you make 3 and get one 2* : 6840 coins for 186 stones will still be 36.something coin per stone ...

    not big into statistics, i'll leave that to aazadan

    feel free to check with higher lvl stuff or other equipment ^^

    /edit:
    oh - and weapon seems to be better choice anyway unless pwdatabse gives wrong price (can't go into game atm) ... 960 (?) for 12 stones means an even 80coins/stone

    /edit 2: (funny idea)
    assume 3 items manufactured, one 2* : gives 186 stones, so at 80 coins per stone
    -> worth 14880
    red jade did cost 840
    so basically mats are worth 2340 coins ^^
    (14880-6x140)/6 = 2340
  • aazadan
    aazadan Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Thanks for the info with weapons. If doing it the way you're suggesting with crafting items, you would have a 67% chance for 12 stones and a 33% chance for 162 stones. That's an average of .67*12+.33*162 for 61.5 stones.
    Two red jade=280
    Sandstone=1k (though this could raise demand, so prices go up)
    Pig Iron=1k (same as above)

    That's 2280 coin for 61.5 stones which works out to 37.07 coin per stone and .9268 coin/stamina. That's a big improvement over the vendor bought options however that's not really a surprise that you can get stuff cheaper by crafting it though certainly something to keep in mind although it comes with a higher time cost.

    If you were to buy a Leaf Cutter off a vendor, you would get 12 stones per for 960 coin which is 80 coin/stone or 2 coin/stamina. That's a little better than the necks I had been using.

    Looking at things a bit more I'm finding that Rock Breaker is a slightly better weapon too
    Rock Breaker - 64.82 Yiyuan average, 1 pig iron, 1 sandstone, 2 red jade

    That would make things 35.17 coin per stone and .879 coin per stamina. Not sure there's anything cheaper than that.
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Level	Chi Stone    +Stamina
    1	YiYuan		40
    2	Liangyi		80
    3	Santsai		160
    4	Ssuhsiang	240
    5	Wuhsing		320
    6	Liuho		400
    7	Chihsing	480
    8	Pakua		560
    9	Chiukung	640
    10	Perfect		720
    
    Chi Stone	Crafting   Total
    Item Name	Level	Cost	Qty	Level	Level	  +Stamina  Ratio
    =================================================================
    Inamorato D.S.	   2	840	10	1	1	   400	      2.1
    Yin-Yang D.S.	   3	3300	39	1	2	   1560	     2.12
    Linked D.B.	   4	7100	34	2	2	   2720	     2.61
    Kan and Li	   5	13100	31	3	3	   4960	     2.64
    Harmony		   6	20700	31	4	3	   7440	     2.78
    Blades of F.G.	   7	30000	30	5	4	   9600	     3.13
    Wings of Prot.	   8	41000	29	6	4	   11600     3.53
    Tiger Helm	   2	460	6	1	1	   240	     1.92
    Helm of Elements  3	1500	18	1	2	   720	     2.08
    

    The first table is the amount of Stamina each stone will give your Genie.

    The second table is the amount of chi stones the cheapest sword of each level will give you, the level of the chi stone, the total amount of stamina gained and the ratio of Coin/Chi.

    From my estimates, if you have enough coin to waste, the Tiger Helm gives you the best Coin/Chi ratio at 1.92, but as someone else said, the higher level items, while having hiigher coin/chi ratios, will take less time to decompose and use. If you decompose items you pick up, I suggest repairing them first if you want the full amount of chi stones.

    It's faster and more efficient, if you are going to decompose weapons, to simply buy them from the NPC and then decompose them as opposed to crafting them, and then decomposing them. The reason being you have to take into account the amount the matts cost to buy from someone else/vendor, the time needed to gather the matts and craft the item.


    I actually had enough coin to simply buy the weapons from the Blacksmith and decompose them. The numbers for the individual chi stones came from the Chi Stones that dropped from the Snowmen during the Xmas event.

    BTW, decomposing a leaf cutter for 12 stones if bought from the vendor is actually 2.29 coin/chi, not 2 because the actual vendor price of a Leaf Cutter is 1100 coin. The PWI database has some inaccurate numbers for the buy price on some items.

    IMHO, if you have extra matts to burn, crafting the items for a chance at a ** can be beneficial at the cost of matts and extra time. If you don't use genies much, the most efficient means would be to simply repair the items that drop, and decompose those as you go, and to decompose **'s that you craft while making gear for leveling crafting/gear to use.
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