Balancing the wizard class

Wizkerel - Heavens Tear · April 2009

After playing this game for some time and reading a lot of the wizard forums I have come to conclude that the wizard is unbalanced. This has been said many times in numerous posts, but often in a blunt or undifferentiated manner. In my opinon there is only one thing that is the cause of the imbalance of this class, namely the low damage output. Therefore I think that there are two improvemnents that should be made to the wizard class;

1- Increase of damage by granting a larger magic damage increase by stat point spend on int after the int reaches 250. So for example increasing int by one stat point gives an X increase in dmg up until 250 int, and then it should give 2X dmg increase for each int point from 251 int and up.
2- An active blessing that reduces the agro caused by the Wizard. This skill would be nescesarry to allow a wizard to nuke bosses in a party without pulling agro.

By introducing these changes a number of imbalances
- Wizards would be of more use in FB's and TT runs because they can speed these runs up as a result of their higher dmg output.
- Soloing becomes less of a problem thanks to the increase in dmg
- Pure wizards would finally have a siginificant advantage over LA wizards
- Wizards will out damage Archers and Clerics, which is justified considering how squishy they are

I reached lvl 60 yesterday and I have always been a Pure wizard. I like it, and i wouldnt want to play any other class. I have died often, but it is exciting to play a wizard because I need to remain focussed all the time. However I do think that wizards should do more damage. I wonder how more experienced players think about the improvements to the wizard class I mentioned above.

kind regards
WizKerel

RedSpeller - Sanctuary · April 2009

Already a thread for this: Should a "Wizard Class Improvement Patch" were announced to be released...
^^

Calliope - Heavens Tear · April 2009

Magic *already* grants a larger increase as you get more of it, because the damage formula multiplies your Magic and your Weapon Damage together. So, as your Mag and Weapon Damage increase, your damage increases geometrically, rather than linearly.

Also, we already have a skill to reduce hate, it's called "squad with competent barbs and have venos pass them chi".

Ursa - Dreamweaver · April 2009

true, true.
for a wizz to reduce hate u need a skilled barb.
yesterday I died in a fb cause barb forgot to flesh realm the boss. total party wipe

Then in another FB I was close to wipe out again cause I crit 2 times in a row on SS and Ice Dragon ( my high-est crit to date, 22k). But the barb took back the aggro in no time.

When wizz crits at the first hits on a boss u need a good barb to save a wipe-out. As I'm going higher in lvl I realised I cannot jump in DD unless the barb has a shtload on aggro in him. If I crit everyone dies. I'm not doing fb's higher that 29 without a barb anymore. (19 and 29 are a breeze)

What wizz would need is a mana shield to reduce pdmg and not the some-how-usefull stone barrier. A mana shield that absorbs 40-60% dmg in MP loss instead of HP loss for about 10-15 secs (30 secs cool down) would make the wizz on par with Clerics/Barbs/Archers on PvP and more than wanted for bosses run.

Xhinzo - Harshlands · April 2009

Having played a BladeMaster increasing the power of a Wizard would be very unbalanced. Considering a Barbarian does even less damage that would be totally unfair. You must realise that 1) Magic damage does not miss and 2) Magic has a very nice range. Essentially in PvE a wizard is an very good damage dealer. With a 3* weapon and mp powder going I can farm very fast. My major problem is fighting archer type mobs but once again consider the problems a low level BM has versus magic mobs.

To me in PvE there is no significant imbalance except that Venomancers have a very easy time dungeons. On the other hand the argument can be made and substantiated that Wizards, axe BMs etc can do AoE parties.

The major problem I have with Wizards is not there power output but their survivability hence my continual suggestion to have a mana shield skill. Balance wise however we must be honest and realise that an archer, venomancer and cleric can all be killed just as easily as a wizard since they all suffer from the same problem: low HP due to a poor vit modifier.

The difference is that the survivability of an archer, veno and cleric are different to that of a wizard, may I dare say easier to work with!

What we must realise is that many of the arguments concerning wizard imbalance or lack of power are very one dimensional. They pick out one particular aspect and only see it that way e.g. Clerics can do more damage than wizards! Ok sure, mabey they can BUT unless its a 1v1 duel or a PK gank in most other instances such as TW, dungeon runs and guild PK battles on the PvP servers a cleric will be found healing since that is its primary role!

Also we must consider that wizards DO have a few skills that improve survivability. The problem is that as I have alluded to earlier, they require a bit more effort or skill in being used than the other mage/ranged classes. These are:
1) Morning Dew
2) Distance Shrink
3) Force of Will
4) Stone Barrier
In addition we can slow, stun and freeze enemies.

We know the inherrant problems with each of these skills but once we know how and when to use them a well played wizard can actually do a good job in PvP and PK.

HOWEVER there is one issue that I must raise. Charms! What an annoyance. To think people actually made an item like that in a game with such a beutiful PvP environment. Shame. They could have done better to simply give all classes a bit more HP and make mobs hit a bit harder than making something as stupid (no apologies) as charms.

Anyway lets get back to the issue. Survivability. I honestly believe that a good mana shield skill is all wizards need to be a bit more balanced with the other classes esp at the lower to mid levels.

Lareish - Harshlands · April 2009

There's a damage absorption pot starting at Apoth Lv 2 manufacturing skills. I haven't gathered enough mats yet to test it out on myself, though. Still using the Lv 1 HP regen pots right now. But an innate skill would be lovely

I learned early on about stealing aggro. I do most of my questing with my husband's Blademaster, and I have to make sure he doesn't just get the first hit, but that he takes the first decent chunk out of the mob's HP bar. Then I can let loose with my spells - at one point they were critting half the time and the mobs thought Ooo Tasty Squishy Mage. I don't pull as much aggro now, fortunately. I still outdamage him though so it's a risky balance if I'm too quick at stringing my skills together, but that's what my Life Powder is for.

I'm not high enough yet where I'm doing FB runs outside of my own Tabs, so I just get to play with the regular field mobs, mostly. My worst aggro deal lately was a heal-aggro incident. The werewolves were getting too smack happy so I healed a random player who was almost wiped and the mob decided it liked Fresh Mage better. That and pulling the extras when they're super-teaming my husband. He almost always nicks each of them (I see great promise in him as a tanker!), but every once in a while I get to play dancestep ahead of the mob XD Which is actually kind of fun but serves little purpose unless I hadn't taken a Life Powder that run...

I recommend everyone roll a Veno alt, get it to 17+, grab a Magmite, and go solo grind high-aggro paired mobs. It's a very good lesson for how tanking should and should NOT be done.

(Miss a mob tap, heal the pet, get some aggro. Yay!)

Ursa - Dreamweaver · April 2009

totally agree. Dmg wise I cannot complain. Yes , using basic skills probably an archer and cleric will get close and do a little bit more dps than a wizz to a non element. But we have 3 elements to controll, so in the majority of cases, we do the highest dmg. Then again, the 2 spark skills cand hardly be matched, and we get to update those mofos at every 3 lvls
At lvl 60 I was grinding at Ultrafin Protector. No other class can 2 shot those SoB (unbuffed), I helped a lot of barbs/archers/venos do their lvl 58 quest there cause they were getting pwned. I could easily tank 2-3 of them. That for me was the best example of using the right skill at the right time. Now I do foxwing, 3 shots, but with the water mastery at full for lvl and buffed I could do them in 2 shots again. I mean...what else to ask? Sure the wizz is lacking some stuff here and there, but for the most part we have a strong point for every mob in PVE. I would not change anything there as that would create a great imbalance in the game. Would just make the strong stronger.
A mana shield will get us the utter respect of all other classes and help us get a sure spot on every Zhen/TT/DT run.

Rinnve - Lost City · May 2009

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A mana shield will get us the utter respect of all other classes and help us get a sure spot on every Zhen/TT/DT run.

Mana shield? You already have it. Earth barrier allows you to have very nice pdef.

Amour - Lost City · May 2009

Cost is already a major factor as a wizard, and a mana shield would just make it cost more to pvp. Plume shell is essentially a physical mana shield, so that idea is a little unoriginal.

Blytz - Sanctuary · May 2009

Calliope - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also, we already have a skill to reduce hate, it's called "squad with competent barbs and have venos pass them chi".

There's a second skill as well, I call it "Run like hell when the archer gets aggro."

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2009

Rinnve - Lost City wrote: »

Mana shield? You already have it. Earth barrier allows you to have very nice pdef.

no we don't, That's a pdef increase buff.
Mana shield means lose MP points instead of HP points when hit. There's a good example of that thing in a lot of other games. Wizzies are squishy everywhere, that's by definition...but a mana shield would make this class really shine. I've talked about this in other posts in more detail.
The bad thing: There will not be any patch/improvement for any class. Ever. The game mechanics are fine from the imcome point of view for PW and their are not going to change one thing. All these theads about balancing classes are just a waste of time. The only improvements that will be added will be cash shop items to squeeze as much as possible out of players CC.

bellaberri · May 2009

fact remains that Wizards are meant to be squishy. I mean they are traditionally a robe wearer and that means squishy. The suggestions to wizard's survivability problem I'm hearing mostly are on how to beef up a wizzie's defense so they can have better survival rate. Wizard = squishy. That's the reality.

With that said, I do agree with the OP that something needs to be done with the Wizard class. They are too fragile to be of any good for anyone as it stands.

Here is my line of thoughts...
1) So to tweak any type of defense perhaps would alter and warp the idea of what the wizard should be (a powerful spell caster who is physically weak). Hince I can see why the developer would resist such a suggestion as a way to balance the wizard. I can see some non-wizzie players arguing...if you want better defense then play a fighting class then or a veno.

2) Wizard's offensive powers are good. No need to change.

3) So the best way to keep a wizard alive is using another line of spells...mind control spells. I'm talking fast casting aoe spells that would wipe hate/memories, aoe sleep/freeze that should be the longest lasting one out of all classes, and aoe stuns or root. With these kind of spell in the Wizard's arsenal, if a wizard is put in a tight spot, instead of dying, the wizard have a good chance of surviving the encounter by casting stun/root/freeze OR sleep and wipe hate/memory. To make it fair, the cast time can be short but the cooling time can be very long so this line will not make wizards overpower.

To me this makes perfect sense. It does not contridict the idea of what a Wizard is...since Wizards are master spell caster they should be able to have the ability to control mind/alter behavior. Also, this will make wizards very desirable in FBs because they can crowd control or be the best DD who can now DD without fear of commiting suicide since they can wipe hate/memory after each masive spell attack.

/thoughts

Rinnve - Lost City · May 2009

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Wizzies are squishy everywhere, that's by definition...

The more level are you, the less squishy you became.
85 with 80HH +2 equip full-buffed: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=842229f8055e3736
65% reduction of p.damage, 4500hp. Not bad, eh?
90 with 90HH +4 equip full-buffed: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=969fc640187d79a0
68% reduction of p.damage, 5700hp. Even better. Possible to kill, of course, but squishy? No way.

Chocooo - Lost City · May 2009

Vit build? At level 85+?
You've got to be kidding.
Squishy? No.
Weak? Hell Yes.

Amour - Lost City · May 2009

Chocooo - Lost City wrote: »

Vit build? At level 85+?
You've got to be kidding.
Squishy? No.
Weak? Hell Yes.

Might as well be LA for the crit rate... I do more damage than that.

Haiz - Lost City · May 2009

Here's an example of a mage done right. This is only +5 90HH with 3 socket g7 HP/Pdef stones along with a +5 necklace and a +3 belt. Could easily push pdef past 5k self-buffed if I upgraded belt a little. I just don't care much for having a lot of pdef, I prefer working on HP.

At 99 I'll gain much more HP with a new weapon and I'm going to upgrade cape and maybe even my belt more. Overall I've done this all with grinding and salary I get from my guild. When I'm buffed stats are nice enough to tank the RQ guild in TW for quite a while.

Every decent mage will have more pdef than an aracher, the only thing that hurts is the lack of HP.

Rinnve - Lost City · May 2009

Chocooo - Lost City wrote: »

Squishy? No.
Weak? Hell Yes.

90 full mag with same equipment, just to test dmg difference.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=22197c051aec2137

Average matk is 1.5k higher which gives additional 380 dmg per hit in pvp against 0% dmg reduction. Vit's damage from gush is 1.8k against 0% mdef, so if it is weak then full int's 2.2k is weak as well.

Chili - Dreamweaver · May 2009

Rinnve - Lost City wrote: »

90 full mag with same equipment, just to test dmg difference.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=22197c051aec2137

Average matk is 1.5k higher which gives additional 380 dmg per hit in pvp against 0% dmg reduction. Vit's damage from gush is 1.8k against 0% mdef, so if it is weak then full int's 2.2k is weak as well.

why don't you refine the wpn and put shards in it? b:surrender

anyways no matter of the targets armor, if you have 20% less m.attack you will do 20% less damage (roughly only, since skills are not only mattack based, but mainly). with vit you get bit more survivability but lose damage. in the end it is totally personal preference what you chose. i myself rather do more damage.

Rinnve - Lost City · May 2009

Chili - Dreamweaver wrote: »

anyways no matter of the targets armor, if you have 20% less m.attack you will do 20% less damage (roughly only, since skills are not only mattack based, but mainly).

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13639482.png

This is for 90 vit/pure mentioned earlier.

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=100b.png

This is for same wizards, but 100 level and sinranbansho (other equipment the same).

Despite constant ~30% difference in matk, actual damage difference is lower; moreover, it decreases with increase of spell power: from ~20% with gush to ~10% with ice dragon. Even with ultimate weapon relative damage difference is not really high, though end-game wizard with good equipment has enough survivability to make full mag build viable.

Chili - Dreamweaver · May 2009

Rinnve - Lost City wrote: »

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13639482.png

This is for 90 vit/pure mentioned earlier.

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=100b.png

This is for same wizards, but 100 level and sinranbansho (other equipment the same).

Despite constant ~30% difference in matk, actual damage difference is lower; moreover, it decreases with increase of spell power: from ~20% with gush to ~10% with ice dragon. Even with ultimate weapon relative damage difference is not really high, though end-game wizard with good equipment has enough survivability to make full mag build viable.

hmm i watched the tables and the numbers seem a bit weird, are those with lvl1 sandstorm and dragon? well then yes ofcourse the difference will be smaller since lvl1 skills have a low m.attack multiplier and high additional damage. if you could please do it with lvl10 skills. i'm pretty sure dmg difference should stay same...probably around 20%.

Rinnve - Lost City · May 2009

Chili - Dreamweaver wrote: »

hmm i watched the tables and the numbers seem a bit weird, are those with lvl1 sandstorm and dragon?

10lvl of course. With 11lvl difference will be even lower due to higher fixed part of spells.

Chili - Dreamweaver wrote: »

since lvl1 skills have a low m.attack multiplier and high additional damage.

Oh, I see. This is the source of your confusion. There is no m.attack multiplier, it's weapon attack multiplier. Basically, all spells deal damage = base matk + X% * weap.atk + some fixed part. Raising int affects only matk, so for more powerful spells with higher weapon multiplier and higher fixed part difference in damage is lower.

mbrunestud · May 2009

i'd just like to have regen rates not reduced in combat...its getting inefficient sitting around, and pots my lvl are not cutting it v.v

Ladywicca - Sanctuary · May 2009

As u start the game u chose a race/class that u want to play. Most ppl will pick a barb or bm to be a tank so i dont know what u fuzzing about the matter u can die time to times.
I dont think the skills are unbalanced of a mage, they hit hard enough, you even kan kill all the nonranged mobs without getting hit. Fod doing that u will only need a Mag (8 points) vit(1 point), str (1point) build and the spells Force of Will and phoenix. A stone shield is even unnesecary, i prefere the ice shield because of the fast mp recovery.
When you hit lvl60 and higher u will even be advanced to be a mage because all the mobs start to hit magical attacks on you, which u can absorb most of the time. Again the stone shield is a not done for me, only when u will grind the earth types.

You can add some Hp shards for extra hp, and refine your weapons for extra damage.

The only disadvantage is the gigantic mp drains which makes grinding hard. Else i like playing my mage account. The hard grinding makes it fun for me, while veno grinding is more boring me b:chuckle

Balancing the wizard class

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