Barbs builds at 89+

Foulcault - Heavens Tear
Foulcault - Heavens Tear Posts: 164 Arc User
edited May 2009 in Barbarian
Question for you barbs of the higher levels. I read the guide by Dai and wonder as I progress through the levels if higher levels barbs are doing the all offense, all defense, or balance at end game? I'm asking this cause I have gone primary tanker and hitting the humanoid skills when able. I'm not noticing nearly as many tigers at these higher stages and more humanoids. Is everyone going humanoid and then demon to be total offense or just waiting out to be be balanced build and using tiger form when needed (like bosses, fb, hh, etc)?
Post edited by Foulcault - Heavens Tear on

Comments

  • Xxwarxx - Lost City
    Xxwarxx - Lost City Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Foulcault - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Question for you barbs of the higher levels. I read the guide by Dai and wonder as I progress through the levels if higher levels barbs are doing the all offense, all defense, or balance at end game? I'm asking this cause I have gone primary tanker and hitting the humanoid skills when able. I'm not noticing nearly as many tigers at these higher stages and more humanoids. Is everyone going humanoid and then demon to be total offense or just waiting out to be be balanced build and using tiger form when needed (like bosses, fb, hh, etc)?


    Dude, Barbarians have all the defence and HP they need dude. Therefore if your talking about balancing then Demon is the way to go. If you want to go pure defence and not be too great at KILLING anyone then go sage and fail at PvP =P. Demon Barbarians after 99 can basically 1v1 ANY class. Just depends on what apoth pots Barbs have and what pots the other person has. Also depends on reaction speeds and timing. Sage can tank the **** out of basically anything but the 5 seconds of nothing but criticals you get from the demon sunder.
    Forsakenx gunna make mine so be patient =)b:kiss
  • LloydAsplund - Sanctuary
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary Posts: 3,899 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Hm, what Im wondering is, is sage Armageddon weaker than level 10 Armageddon? Asking this because it only uses 35% of hp/mp not 50%.
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  • Foulcault - Heavens Tear
    Foulcault - Heavens Tear Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Dude, well that's what I am trying to figure out. Are barbs at 89+ balancing out or are they going full offense or defense? I figured tanker sage would be lol but whats the more popular option at 89? Is it tanker demon or one of the other combos.
  • Xxwarxx - Lost City
    Xxwarxx - Lost City Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Foulcault - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Dude, well that's what I am trying to figure out. Are barbs at 89+ balancing out or are they going full offense or defense? I figured tanker sage would be lol but whats the more popular option at 89? Is it tanker demon or one of the other combos.

    The Sage Perditon DOES do less damage. The most popular is Demon because Barbs are like Kings of PWI after 100+ if theyre demon. Even Sages rule most other classes at 100+. Demon in my opinion is the best, more crit = more serkxcrit = more instakills. Also at 99 you can go tiger and sunder, then chi pot and use Perdition for an auto crit perdition that does 10% more normal damage. Thats about a 30k hit on everyone that gets hit.
    Forsakenx gunna make mine so be patient =)b:kiss
  • DarkRings - Sanctuary
    DarkRings - Sanctuary Posts: 168 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Foulcault - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'm asking this cause I have gone primary tanker and hitting the humanoid skills when able.
    (like bosses, fb, hh, etc)?
    Sage is for you, enough Str x Dex for equips, all vits. :P
  • Hazardus - Heavens Tear
    Hazardus - Heavens Tear Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I'm a tanker build but I still haven't decided on which path I'll be taking.

    Demon for PvP, Sage for PvE. Since I'm on a PvE server the only times I really ever have to PK someone is when I'm in the cube I might go sage.
    Demon does give some crazy scary crit rates, and the full damage in tiger form is nice, but the sage path also increases damage (not as much as demon though).

    However, acquiring demon/sage skills is another problem of its own.

    The most useful demon skill (imho), is trueform which is relatively easily available and learnt at 89. Sage trueform will add 10% more HP, but thats probably just gonna be another 1.5-2k HP increase for me.

    More useful sage skills like shapeshifting intensity and axe/hammer mastery are harder to get and learnt only at later levels.

    I think lvl 90+ a demon barb would be awesome but lvl100+ a sage barb would be even more so.
    When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
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  • Erado - Heavens Tear
    Erado - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    i think the posters before me named it all.

    Demon is best if you care about PvP, if you have a tank build and focus on PvE though sage is the way to go.
    so it depends on personal preference mostly, most ppl ive seen or talked to pick sage though, also for its improved chi gain.
  • Bolinhas - Lost City
    Bolinhas - Lost City Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Yep, once again I got to agree with Hazardus (damn Tiger, he's always right)

    You got to think what you like to do in the game: is it the team play and tanking or the PvP side of it? By level 89 you should have a better point of view. (The Demon Roar is unbelieavable).

    I don't believe any class (maybe except the mage, because of his ultra-high damage output) can bring down a Barb with a hiero on. It's just impossible. The other day I saw in on of these forums a level 100 Barb with 30k HP. Now that's what I'm aiming for now, wish me luck b:laugh

    I know I'm still far away form those choices Erado has probably taken and Hazardus is already thinking about, but I can't help asking myself.

    Sage will be my way b:victory
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Neltharius - Heavens Tear
    Neltharius - Heavens Tear Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Recently, I've been trying to educate myself more on barbs since i just got one about 2 weeks ago. So far I'm loving it. Contrary to popular belief, they're not such slow levelers. I'm level 51 in 13 days and I consider myself a casual player.
    Anyway, from all the reading I've done, Sage Perdition only consumes 35% of your mana/HP pool, however, it still does damage as if it consumed 50%
    Meaning you just did the same amount of damage but saved yourself 15% HP
    Also, Sage increases HP in tiger form, meaning you're doing 10% damage with perdition than a barb who went demon. The famous 31k barb in PW-MY went sage and can pretty much 1 hit any class (Including some other barbs, too)
    Demon is an amazing path to go if you're BM, Archer, and Wizard. Also for FAC Clerics. However, the point for a barb is not to out-damage their opponent. It is to out-tank them. Try taking down a Sage Barb. You'll be dead long before you're close to it.
  • CornHilario - Heavens Tear
    CornHilario - Heavens Tear Posts: 647 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    LloydAsplund - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hm, what Im wondering is, is sage Armageddon weaker than level 10 Armageddon? Asking this because it only uses 35% of hp/mp not 50%.

    if the cost is less, i think yeah. but at least better survival?
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  • Hazardus - Heavens Tear
    Hazardus - Heavens Tear Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Bolinhas - Lost City wrote: »
    Yep, once again I got to agree with Hazardus (damn Tiger, he's always right)

    Awww.....thats nice of you to say...thankyou! b:cute
    Neltharius - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Meaning you just did the same amount of damage but saved yourself 15% HP

    Copy paste from ectaomb's:

    Sage Perdition:
    Consume all ones Chi, and trade half of all HP and mana for a massive attack to all targets in a range of 12 meters from the caster. Inflicts 5000 physical damage. Each point of HP and mana consumed in casting adds an additional 4.0 damage.
    Sage version reduces HP and MP cost to 35% of your current total.

    Demon Perdition:
    Consume all ones Chi, and trade half of all HP and mana for a massive attack to all targets in a range of 12 meters from the caster. Inflicts 5000 physical damage. Each point of HP and mana consumed in casting adds an additional 4.0 damage.
    Demon version does 10% extra damage.

    Reading those descriptions I don't think the sage version does the same damage. I think it would do the same or maybe even less damage than the lvl10 perdition.
    The sage version perhaps simply gives you the option to reduce your damage output and HP consumption from the skill.

    EDIT: Whoops, I had posted some utter nonsense here, lol, forgot periditon was a humanoid skill basically. b:embarrass Now deleted. Thanks Xxwarxx.

    So, Can a barb with sage perdition please answer this? b:thanks
    When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Nocturne mature HT guild - we invite people, not levels.
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=760842
  • Xxwarxx - Lost City
    Xxwarxx - Lost City Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Neltharius - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Anyway, from all the reading I've done, Sage Perdition only consumes 35% of your mana/HP pool, however, it still does damage as if it consumed 50%
    Meaning you just did the same amount of damage but saved yourself 15% HP
    Also, Sage increases HP in tiger form, meaning you're doing 10% damage with perdition than a barb who went demon. The famous 31k barb in PW-MY went sage and can pretty much 1 hit any class (Including some other barbs, too)

    The first one, 10% more hp in tiger form? PERDITION IS A HUMANOID SKILL

    For the second, he couldn't take down another WB 1v1. I know because I've watched him attempt to do it. He also can't 1shot any class except Mage and Archer and Cleric. If the veno isn't heavy then yes he can get them too. To oneshot LA's it takes a serk crit and anyone can do that if they're lucky enough.
    Forsakenx gunna make mine so be patient =)b:kiss
  • maroc
    maroc Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    well i think, you can do both sides:
    you are a tank build; so you can go on demon path to get a balanced Human form. Or you choose sage, than you get a clerics-favorite-tank-all-away-Tank ^^

    because then you have 10% more HP in tiger form,double physical defence and some nice other stuff, like MP regeneration as well ^^

    so on the one hand you win with sage because you have a bit higher lifeline or on the the other hand you win with demon, because you have a higher crit-rate.
  • Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear
    Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Well, I'm not remotely close to 90 yet but this thread got me thinking again. I was planning to go Sage but now leaning towards Demon. I'm mostly PvE and rarely PvP.
    But I am assuming that all the skill books are easily available drop-wise and infinite coins cause we'd always make enough money eventually.
    So what I'm seeing so far is the following...

    Demon Pros

    BO - Beastial Onslaught
    Demon gives +35% crit

    Mastery
    Demon gives +2% crit

    Shapeshifting Intesify
    Demon gives +2% crit

    Beast King
    Demon gives 50% more chi. (spammable flesh ream?)

    True Form
    Demon removes the damage penalty

    Sunder
    Demon gives 100% crit for 5seconds. (that's 4 crits at full damage because of Demon True Form)

    Sage Pros

    Shapeshifting Intesify
    Sage gives 60% more pdef than lvl10

    Penetrate Armor
    Sage decrease target's pdef by 45%

    Blood Bath+True Form
    Both combined would give 16% more hp

    Sunder
    Recover 1466 more hp than lvl10

    Mastery
    40% more dmg

    Strength of Titans
    20% more dmg

    My Conclusions

    So I can get almost 50% crit with Demon Barb (skills+ring+60dex+wep)!?

    The problem with Sage for me during PvE is that they're mostly pdef and hp boosting. And in TT and instances, I would be with a cleric. And leveling up would increase my HP pool anyways. And Sage Mastery and Str of Titans would be almost canceled out by Demon True Form . Sage Beast King is an extra 30min when I can always recast. Regen isnt important because of easily bought HP/MP pots.
    Just seems to me that Demon is good for PvE and PvP.

    Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing how Sage is better than Demon in the long run. The only thing that would persuade me to go Sage now is if the drop-rates for the Demon books are considerable lower than the Sage books.
  • Erado - Heavens Tear
    Erado - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    note that aside from stomp, garotte and tigerform all of the skills are VERY hard to get, aside from the fact they cost 1 mil sp and 1 mil coins per skill to learn.

    that being said, as a tank build you CANNOT have enough hp or defense really. so sage is always better for a pve barbarian, mostly because of the extra hp, and also important, the sage chi skill that demons do not get.

    try tanking bosses like ape boss in 2-3, or belial or so, and you will know what i mean.
  • Hazardus - Heavens Tear
    Hazardus - Heavens Tear Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Erado - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    note that aside from stomp, garotte and tigerform all of the skills are VERY hard to get

    Precisely. And amongst them the greatest benefit goes to a demon from trueform. Sage gets 10% more HP, but that doesnt compare to increasing your weapon damage by 50%.
    But I still think when one got all skills....the sage would turn out with almost as much damage per attack as demon and more survivability.

    Demon has a lot of increased crits+full damage in tigerform, but sage gets better attack buffs from mastery and poison fang.
    When the going gets tough; Get a tank!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Nocturne mature HT guild - we invite people, not levels.
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=760842
  • Neltharius - Heavens Tear
    Neltharius - Heavens Tear Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    OK guys.
    Took a while, but i finally figured it out.
    I had to make an account to be able to log into PW-MY-EN to clarify this

    Sage Perdition does not lose any damage, it keeps doing the same damage as if it lost all 50% HP and 50% MP, however, it only consumes up 35%
    Also, it DOES become better.
    When you choose demon and sage, you don't only have the abilities to choose different skills, but it also adds a set of passive abilities. Some of the passives that Sage gets are: 1. 10% more HP in general (meaning also in humanoid form) and 2. Higher base attack damage.
    So, yes, it can not land those hard crit hits like a demon, but it CAN hit at a higher constant damage.

    I repeat, Demon is a great path to take when you're a damage dealer, but when it comes to Barbs, Sage is the way to go.
  • Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear
    Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Neltharius - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    When you choose demon and sage, you don't only have the abilities to choose different skills, but it also adds a set of passive abilities. Some of the passives that Sage gets are:
    1. 10% more HP in general (meaning also in humanoid form) and
    2. Higher base attack damage.
    So, yes, it can not land those hard crit hits like a demon, but it CAN hit at a higher constant damage.

    I repeat, Demon is a great path to take when you're a damage dealer, but when it comes to Barbs, Sage is the way to go.

    I cant seem to find the thread for it over at PW-MY.
    Can you please post linky? Would really like to know their passive bonuses.
    Thanks!
  • Starang - Lost City
    Starang - Lost City Posts: 460 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    ShapeShifting Intensify Level 10

    Equipment gives Gains 60% extra physical defense in tiger form.

    Sage version always increases physical defense gain to 120%.
    Demon version gives a critical hit rate increase of 2%.

    Meaning you will get 60% more extra physical defense with sage skill.

    Perdition Level 10

    Consume all ones Chi, and trade half of all HP and mana for a massive attack to all targets in a range of 12 meters from the caster. Inflicts 4000 physical damage. Each point of HP and mana consumed in casting adds an additional 4.0 damage.

    Requires 2 Spark.

    Sage version reduces HP and MP cost to 35% of your current total.
    Demon version does 10% extra damage.

    Meaning your HP Hiero won't tick when you cast sage perdition and yes it also does more damage as every sage/demon skill does compared to lvl10.

    Strength of the Titans Level 10

    A raging roar renders you and squad members more powerful. Physical damage increases by 30% of weapon attack. Lasts 30 minutes.

    Sage version always increases damage by 50% of weapon attack.
    Demon version increases critical hit rate by 5% for 1 minute.

    This is pretty self explanatory.

    Blood Bath Level 10

    Reduces maximum HP and current HP by 16% to increase accuracy by 200% for 10 minutes.

    Sage version reduces maximum HP by only 10%.
    Demon version increases accuracy by 300%.

    Sage version lets you have more HP when using Blood Bath and demon version takes off the same amount of HP as lv10 Blood Path but it gives you more accuracy. (which barbarians need in pvp)

    True Form Level 3

    Shape shift into a white tiger. Maximum HP increases by 30%, movement speed increases by 50% but attacks inflict 50% less weapon damage.

    Sage version always increases maximum HP by 40%.
    Demon version lets tiger form attacks do full damage.

    Simple.

    All in all, both have their pros and cons. Acquiring demon/sage books other than the ones that drop in FB89 are really really hard to get. Lv99 skills you can get from cube starting at lv90. If you finish cube, you will get page of fate. Collect 30 of these and you can try to craft a lv99 skill book which will be random from 6 skills. Lv92+ skill books drop from last boss in FB99 or from old book pages what you can get from Godless Valley or from cube with cube credits starting from lv96. And no, demon nor sage have any kind of "passive skill" that gives you automatically 10% more hp or attack power.
  • Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear
    Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    I read this somewhere and wasnt able to find it again.
    There's suppose to be a skill that adds 50chi every 60seconds.
    Anyone know which skill this is?
  • Erado - Heavens Tear
    Erado - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    yes im not sure of the name right now (not logged in) but its a sage only skill.

    its called master li's technique or something like it, and indeed, it gives 50 chi with no mp cost with a cooldown of 60 seconds
  • Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear
    Chappy_Happy - Heavens Tear Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Erado - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    yes im not sure of the name right now (not logged in) but its a sage only skill.

    its called master li's technique or something like it, and indeed, it gives 50 chi with no mp cost with a cooldown of 60 seconds

    I'm looking at http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php and cant seem to find this skill.

    And what is the demon version of their exclusive skills?
  • Erado - Heavens Tear
    Erado - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Indeed, i have never seen it on ecatomb before either... no idea why
    I was correct on the name though, Master Li's Technique.

    As for demon only skill? cant tell you for sure since i am sage, but i didnt hear about or see anyone use any such skill so far.
  • Arravis - Lost City
    Arravis - Lost City Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    The demon skill reduces a target's chi by 50. You can use this on mobs, but it's only really worth anything in PVP.
  • Foulcault - Heavens Tear
    Foulcault - Heavens Tear Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    Master Li's Technique
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=233332
    Special skills, which are gained after finishing cultivation (0 spirit, 0 coins)
    Master Li's technique - gives 50 chi instantly. Cooldown is 60 secs[/COLOR]
    Mo Zun's Taunt - takes away 50chi from enemy (you don't get extra chi). Cooldown is 30 sec

    Stole from a venomancer thread. I googled "Master Li's Technique" if anyone was to replicate.

    Seems reading the thread that it is a passive skill of the fairy? Hence why no name in ecatomb?
  • Erado - Heavens Tear
    Erado - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited May 2009
    its not a passive skill, you will have to cast it manually.
    You have to learn it at the sage/demon trainer of your class, after you completed the 89 cultivation quests, but indeed doesnt cost any sp or coins.

    the 89 fairy doesnt do anything at all really, aside from looking pretty.

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