Waste of money leveling sutra

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Complicate - Lost City
Complicate - Lost City Posts: 31 Arc User
edited May 2009 in Blademaster
I did the numbers for diamond sutra comparing level 1 through 10, and I determined that the cost efficiency for extra HP for MP actually decreases as you level it. Most of the HP you get from this skill comes from the 20% not the added bonus HP.

In a nutshell, the more you level diamond sutra, the more mp you spend for less HP. Furthermore, the sage/demon skills make it seemingly worse if you don't include the added benefits.

So what's the word, level it for a slight survivability or keep it at level 1?
Post edited by Complicate - Lost City on

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  • Lyndura - Lost City
    Lyndura - Lost City Posts: 829 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Most people leave it at level 5 then level it again when there is spare money/spirit.

    I myself left it at level 5.
  • Sinense - Sanctuary
    Sinense - Sanctuary Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    I believe most of your skills lose efficiency when you level them. If you want ultimate efficiency, I think you should leave all your skills on level 1. And you can get infinite efficiency if you never use your skills.

    Except, of course, when you have full mp, you are wasting your mana regen. And if you use high level potions, you are probably wasting some of them if you wound up with full mana after using them. Also, your "efficient" skills are just efficient in mana -- leveled skills get stuff done faster and in battle time usually matters.

    Does this help you any?
  • Complicate - Lost City
    Complicate - Lost City Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Sinense - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I believe most of your skills lose efficiency when you level them. If you want ultimate efficiency, I think you should leave all your skills on level 1. And you can get infinite efficiency if you never use your skills.

    Except, of course, when you have full mp, you are wasting your mana regen. And if you use high level potions, you are probably wasting some of them if you wound up with full mana after using them. Also, your "efficient" skills are just efficient in mana -- leveled skills get stuff done faster and in battle time usually matters.

    Does this help you any?

    The problem is that a leveled sutra doesn't make grinding faster, it just adds an extra bit of survivability. Another problem is that (for pot users) one may not always have the mana to cast the skill at critical times; 300 MP is a lot of mana to a BM, and that mana might better be spent on actually attacking. The extra HP is useless if you consider this.

    Otherwise, leveled skills do lead to more efficiency in the sense that you kill a mob quicker so you're right about that. However I left all of my aoe skills at 1 so far because grinding is extremely cheap this way, and meteor rush actually saves money and hits, enabling somewhat inexpensive grinding.
  • Averian - Lost City
    Averian - Lost City Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Well personally I try to max it asap cause the healing skill is like using a potion and added on to the pots effect if you use one, your regenaration is really amazing.
  • dekciw
    dekciw Posts: 954 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    You should only level it according to your max hp, personally mine is at 7 but I have 9k hp.
    ZzXVdr5.png
  • Complicate - Lost City
    Complicate - Lost City Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    dekciw wrote: »
    You should only level it according to your max hp, personally mine is at 7 but I have 9k hp.

    okie b:victory
    Averian - Lost City wrote: »
    Well personally I try to max it asap cause the healing skill is like using a potion and added on to the pots effect if you use one, your regenaration is really amazing.

    Actually the numbers say that it's cheaper to simply use a pot. The HP/MP ratio per level is always a multiple of 50. However if you add the 20% in, you're actually losing money. It would depend, as dekciw says, on your maximum HP, whether to keep it leveled.
  • nocturnalbastard
    nocturnalbastard Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    You don't need to max it asap, just level it accordingly. As for the cost effectiveness? If you only plan on leaving it at lvl1, just forget about it and don't buy it in the first place, cause then you'll never have to worry about it. :P

    Level 1 only gives you 250hp over 15 seconds, level 10 gives you 1600. Sorry, that's a significant difference while waiting for your pots to cool down, IMO.

    Sometimes you need the extra healing of sutra, and the higher the level you get, the more healing you might need in an emergency, plus the extra healing over time can really help in a bad situation, but if you're someone who always has a charm, I can see how you wouldn't like it.

    I'm lvl 75, and my sutra is at lvl 8 and it's good for now. Just level it when you feel you're not getting enough healing from it.
  • Briegg - Sanctuary
    Briegg - Sanctuary Posts: 584 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    i think my sutra's at like 7 i think

    but it's one of the most useful skills i have
    with it when grinding
    i only have to use an hp pot maybe every 4 mobs
    but also mobs drop hp and mp pots
    so i rarely have to buy pots at all

    i usually only buy pots 30 at a time
    and the last time i had to buy mp pots was like a month ago
    and hp pots maybe like a week ago
    whether or not the efficiency goes down

    it's still a useful skill
  • Problmatik - Sanctuary
    Problmatik - Sanctuary Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Ummm...Life Powders/HP Charm FTW?

    Life Powders through lvl 55ish? they always helped me keep up my Hp even against magic mobs...as i left my diamond sutra at lvl 3...and then when you can make the Life Powders that give 100HP recovery..i think lvl 4 apothecary...saves you so much money considering when you grind/farm items you stop by and pick up herbs..

    Even still...i find takin like an hour and a half outta my grind/quest time to just go around and pick up herbs to be most beneficial to my money/spi not buying pots or diamond sutra lvls...

    A bit more tideous than pots/sutra, just by needing to farm herbs...but i find its alot better to have Life Powders(50HP recov) and the ones taht give 100HP recov in hand with few low pots instead of wasting spark for sutra and buying pots...This way is alot better in my opinion..but totally up to you

    And HP Charms....if you buy like one gold charm..450k unless its changed...that hp charm will last you so much longer if you use the Powders..like i said..more tideous but saves you money/spi...and it makes your HP Charm, normally your excuse to draw aggro out the ****, look like a simple insurance card for incase you get mobbed by more mobs than your used to...
  • Complicate - Lost City
    Complicate - Lost City Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Here is my information: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=r87C01m3kIvO6LqvcHEmHFw

    Assuming that you stop at 10,000 HP (endgame), it will take 3 level 8 sutras (780 MP) to fully heal versus 5 level 1 sutras (250 MP). Obviously this does not account for its value in PVP, but in PVE it is severely inefficient. I think I am content having it at level 2 for now, I will see if the numbers make a difference at later levels.
  • nocturnalbastard
    nocturnalbastard Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Complicate - Lost City wrote: »
    Here is my information: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=r87C01m3kIvO6LqvcHEmHFw

    Assuming that you stop at 10,000 HP (endgame), it will take 3 level 8 sutras (780 MP) to fully heal versus 5 level 1 sutras (250 MP). Obviously this does not account for its value in PVP, but in PVE it is severely inefficient. I think I am content having it at level 2 for now, I will see if the numbers make a difference at later levels.

    Sorry, that's kinda useless to me, IMO. You're mistaking the pure numbers for the actual usefulness of the skill itself. A lot of times I'll hit Sutra at 80% or more before I'm going to AoE grind multiple mobs because the healing over time will benefit me while I'm taking damage.

    250HP or 1600HP over time can mean life or death. And it can also be combined with remedies or pots.

    And yes, updating this skill has provided me with the ability to take a greater amount of damage over time than had I not levelled the skill.
  • Armegedon - Lost City
    Armegedon - Lost City Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    uhhh.... Sutra is one of the Blademaster key skills, you level it to 10 then get it to sage/demon right away...
  • nocturnalbastard
    nocturnalbastard Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    Armegedon - Lost City wrote: »
    uhhh.... Sutra is one of the Blademaster key skills, you level it to 10 then get it to sage/demon right away...

    Yeah, the Demon version gives you +10% crit for 15 seconds... the Sage just gives you 20% chance to recover an additional 50% HP instead.
  • Xenaaah - Heavens Tear
    Xenaaah - Heavens Tear Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    I use life powder for the big tough mobs. Leveling sutra for the amount of max HP you have is a good idea. If you don't wanna use regular HP pots or life powder, you could use the mana form of life powder and then use sutra to heal you that way.
  • KhaosShadow - Sanctuary
    KhaosShadow - Sanctuary Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    It really depends on your play style how useful it is, and what you plan on using it for.

    If you always have a mp charm equipped then 300 mp isn't a big deal at all. And while aoe grinding having higher levels is really useful. Before I actually started using sutra and timing it well i'd go threw 250k of my hp charm in 1 hour. With timing sutra well I go threw 100k of my hp charm. If I used sutra 100 times that'd be 30k mp, which is 1/30 of an mp charm to save 1/4 of my hp charm. Also once you get higher level these little expenses don't really matter. You gain money fast enough that you don't notice if your skills are a little less efficient concerning $.
  • nocturnalbastard
    nocturnalbastard Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    KhaosShadow - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It really depends on your play style how useful it is, and what you plan on using it for.

    If you always have a mp charm equipped then 300 mp isn't a big deal at all. And while aoe grinding having higher levels is really useful. Before I actually started using sutra and timing it well i'd go threw 250k of my hp charm in 1 hour. With timing sutra well I go threw 100k of my hp charm. If I used sutra 100 times that'd be 30k mp, which is 1/30 of an mp charm to save 1/4 of my hp charm. Also once you get higher level these little expenses don't really matter. You gain money fast enough that you don't notice if your skills are a little less efficient concerning $.

    A practical example of how a properly levelled Sutra is worthwhile.
  • Complicate - Lost City
    Complicate - Lost City Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    KhaosShadow - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It really depends on your play style how useful it is, and what you plan on using it for.

    If you always have a mp charm equipped then 300 mp isn't a big deal at all. And while aoe grinding having higher levels is really useful. Before I actually started using sutra and timing it well i'd go threw 250k of my hp charm in 1 hour. With timing sutra well I go threw 100k of my hp charm. If I used sutra 100 times that'd be 30k mp, which is 1/30 of an mp charm to save 1/4 of my hp charm. Also once you get higher level these little expenses don't really matter. You gain money fast enough that you don't notice if your skills are a little less efficient concerning $.

    I can see how that would be true. I'm thinking I'm only going to start leveling this once I have spirit and start using charms...

    BTW, does anyone have the sage/demon sutra yet?

    Thx for responses everyone.
  • Axemanek - Heavens Tear
    Axemanek - Heavens Tear Posts: 588 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    I love sutra, it is truly a life-saver in AoE grinding
    I Want To Eat Estasi & Send Her Into Extasy!! b:victory

    May The Force Not Be With You!
  • mortie
    mortie Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2009
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    The main reason for lvling sutra for me is that it costs a spark, and having to cast it less often means more sparks for faster killing.

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