Why Pure Mag/Nuking is stupid

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
edited April 2009 in Venomancer
This is my opinion on why nuking is stupid, and how people should learn to put a small distance between attacks :|. Used 7x kowlin with level 5 FR and level 3 bash. 321 mag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmdsbQNMs1k

1st segment, distance between attacks
2nd segment, nuking
Post edited by Tearvalerin - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Daerys - Sanctuary
    Daerys - Sanctuary Posts: 1,022 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Without even bothering to look at the vid I already know your problem: First it's a Kowlin, not the best aggro pet by far. Secondly Bash is only level 3, and FR is not instant aggro so relying on it requires waiting out of simple mechanics. Waiting more than a couple seconds for Bash to land is completely unnecessary with a pet that can put out some damage, not counting heavy refining of course.
  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Daerys - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Without even bothering to look at the vid I already know your problem: First it's a Kowlin, not the best aggro pet by far. Secondly Bash is only level 3, and FR is not instant aggro so relying on it requires waiting out of simple mechanics. Waiting more than a couple seconds for Bash to land is completely unnecessary with a pet that can put out some damage, not counting heavy refining of course.

    I did bother to look at the vid, and... Bull's eye.b:laugh

    Why not use a real grinding pet (like a golem) and attack continuously like everyone else. But hey, if you want to grind slowly, that's your choice.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    same thing happens with my herc, why bother >_>; playing bazooka just leads to aggro stealing.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Daerys - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Without even bothering to look at the vid I already know your problem: First it's a Kowlin, not the best aggro pet by far. Secondly Bash is only level 3, and FR is not instant aggro so relying on it requires waiting out of simple mechanics. Waiting more than a couple seconds for Bash to land is completely unnecessary with a pet that can put out some damage, not counting heavy refining of course.
    Kowlin is 2218 attack at level 90 with 0.8 attacks/sec. That gives it 1774 DPS.
    Golem is 3240 attack at level 90 with 0.6 attacks/sec. That gives it 1944 DPS.

    Most people only put Bash on their golem. The kowlin has both Bash + Flesh Ream. We're still trying to figure out how pet skills interleave with regular attacks, but assuming they overlay on top of them with a 1.25 sec cast time:

    Kowlin Bash 3 = 2218*1.7 = 3771 every 9.25 sec ==> 408 DPS
    Kowlin Flesh Ream 5 = 2218*3 = 6654 every 16.25 sec ==> 409 DPS
    Kowlin total = 2591 DPS

    Golem Bash 5 = 3240*2 = 6480 every 9.25 sec ==> 701
    Golem total = 2645 DPS

    The two are practically identical in terms of the damage they do (DPS).

    And from my testing, both Flesh Ream and Bash generate the same amount of aggro, just FR is every 16 sec while Bash is every 9 sec. So I suspect the kowlin (with both Bash and FR) pulls considerably more aggro than a golem with just Bash. Easy way to test would be to have it and a golem with Bash 5 fight the same mob, and see which one can pull aggro off the other.

    Edit: I should note that if you manually cycle the golem's Sandblow skill, it will generate more aggro too. Most people don't bother level that up though.
  • Daerys - Sanctuary
    Daerys - Sanctuary Posts: 1,022 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    You're right somewhat Solandri. In the long run the Kowlin probably does have a bit better aggro potential, but for regular mobs you need that big Bash to grab aggro quick and hold it just long enough for it to die.
  • Mothergoose - Sanctuary
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary Posts: 1,320 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    same thing happens with my herc, why bother >_>; playing bazooka just leads to aggro stealing.

    Silly question, but did you forgot to replace pounce with bash and level it up?
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Kowlin is 2218 attack at level 90 with 0.8 attacks/sec. That gives it 1774 DPS.
    Golem is 3240 attack at level 90 with 0.6 attacks/sec. That gives it 1944 DPS.

    Most people only put Bash on their golem. The kowlin has both Bash + Flesh Ream. We're still trying to figure out how pet skills interleave with regular attacks, but assuming they overlay on top of them with a 1.25 sec cast time:

    Kowlin Bash 3 = 2218*1.7 = 3771 every 9.25 sec ==> 408 DPS
    Kowlin Flesh Ream 5 = 2218*3 = 6654 every 16.25 sec ==> 409 DPS
    Kowlin total = 2591 DPS

    Golem Bash 5 = 3240*2 = 6480 every 9.25 sec ==> 701
    Golem total = 2645 DPS

    The two are practically identical in terms of the damage they do (DPS).

    And from my testing, both Flesh Ream and Bash generate the same amount of aggro, just FR is every 16 sec while Bash is every 9 sec. So I suspect the kowlin (with both Bash and FR) pulls considerably more aggro than a golem with just Bash. Easy way to test would be to have it and a golem with Bash 5 fight the same mob, and see which one can pull aggro off the other.

    Edit: I should note that if you manually cycle the golem's Sandblow skill, it will generate more aggro too. Most people don't bother level that up though.

    It doesn't work that way while grinding. Bash's spike damage is what gets aggro in reality. DPS don't truly matter, since the mob dies in a couple of shots anyway. Golem's high dmg per shot with low attack speed also means Bash's dmg spike is quite high. All the pure venos leave bash on auto with golem and grinds. It's just too proven to argue against.
  • Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary
    Surfer_Rosa - Sanctuary Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    I agree with Solandri as i've found in my own experience that pets with significantly less dps output than Kowlin can still be effective at holding aggro. As for the nuking thing, it is something of a debate wether grinding on mobs higher level than you it's actually worth it. Mobs my level i can handle with 1 click, and lvl 3 Flesh Ream on both my land pets (neither of which has high attack numbers) is usually enough to hold aggro just enough time to kill the mob. Tearvalerin's strategy of sending a pet in and waiting for a sec or two is actually very effective when dealing with higher level mobs or increased life, etc and i think the real point to debate here is not what the better approach is (this is a strategy that is useful in certain contexts) but what is more efficient as a long term strategy for grinding. So in short i wouldn't agree with pure mag/nuking being stupid.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Mothergoose - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It doesn't work that way while grinding. Bash's spike damage is what gets aggro in reality. DPS don't truly matter, since the mob dies in a couple of shots anyway. Golem's high dmg per shot with low attack speed also means Bash's dmg spike is quite high. All the pure venos leave bash on auto with golem and grinds. It's just too proven to argue against.
    See this thread where I did some tests on this.

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=259391

    The skills themselves seem to generate aggro on top of the damage. That is, if a golem hits with Bash for 2k damage and does no more attacks, someone else needs to do about 5k-7k damage to pull aggro off it, not 2k+1. The aggro from the skill surpasses the damage from the skill attack. The same holds for Flesh Ream. I suspect a kowlin Flesh Ream followed by a Bash could easily overcome the additional damage of a golem's Bash. (Edit: This is kind of a moot point for the video though, because in the second case he didn't even use the kowlin's Bash.)

    The tests I ran with my cub afterwards seem to substantiate this. Using a combo of Flesh Ream + Bash, even with the cub's low damage it was able to hold aggro through almost all the nuking I was able to do.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    This is my opinion on why nuking is stupid, and how people should learn to put a small distance between attacks :|. Used 7x kowlin with level 5 FR and level 3 bash. 321 mag.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmdsbQNMs1k

    1st segment, distance between attacks
    2nd segment, nuking


    Hold on wtf??? You didnt even use bash the 2nd time??? And I have noticed noxious gas lures mobs even if you get a herc to hit 1st. It has a higher aggro than most skills.

    USE BASH. IT HAS A HIGHER AGGRO COUNTER THAN MOST SKILLS. AGGRO ISN'T ALL ABOUT DAMAGE.

    But I think you know this. Why are you trying to slant this video to your view?

    -edit- I can nuke nonstop and WILL NOT draw aggro. Lvl 4 bash which I have on herc and sawfly. Do I need to make a vid? ;o
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_oV1nHKIEM

    herc, bash, wut? still same result. lit youre coocoo.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Lvl 3 bash right? And what is making you use noxious gas first? That skill is like an aggro grabber.

    Like I said...I will make a vid.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    yes it did O_o; in the end i take a hit for 584. And I use noxious because its one of my highest damaging skills ;P/fills chi like crazy

    it stunned from lucky.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmCMInCf1xo


    Here it is...should be up by now. Sorry about the quality. I don't know how to get it better. b:sad

    If you can see...the one in the beggining kinda comes but the herc catches it right away with a normal attack. These are the lv 75 bunnies that I kill in 3 nukes.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    lol i have like 950~ more matk than you do.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    lol i have like 950~ more matk than you do.

    Yeah it was wrong. Max attack was 4414 and I had 4144 on the description. It's fixed now.

    But I'm using a TT70 weapon. Wanna do it again when I have TT80?

    *Yawn* And I can go to higher mobs to show u how it doesn't steal either.
  • mbnmbn
    mbnmbn Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    1 little thing...Tearvalerin, you attacked earth mobs. Earth take more dmg vs wood so it's harder to manage aggro.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    mbnmbn wrote: »
    1 little thing...Tearvalerin, you attacked earth mobs. Earth take more dmg vs wood so it's harder to manage aggro.

    Oh yeah...Didnt realize that. Things like Luminoc Architech have killed me because I didn't delay when attacking them. I hit luminoc like 8k each hit.

    With earth bosses and earth mobs in dungeons you DO have to pause a bit to keep aggro. So I guess Tear is right in that situation. ;o

    But normal grinding on an earth mobs is no problem. They die faster than the bunnies.
  • MystiMonk - Sanctuary
    MystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    I use more of pure mag nuking build if you want to call it that.I do use a golem though.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • LadyWench - Heavens Tear
    LadyWench - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary wrote: »
    This is my opinion on why nuking is stupid, and how people should learn to put a small distance between attacks :|. Used 7x kowlin with level 5 FR and level 3 bash. 321 mag.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmdsbQNMs1k

    1st segment, distance between attacks
    2nd segment, nuking


    a difference i note between the two sections is that in the 2nd instance you didn't attack after your pet had aggro like in the first instance. the attack seemed to coincide or occur marginally after, using an aggro skill, followed by another attack that causes high damage also.
    but i do appreciate some of your guides, and hope to be putting your tt advice to use soon. :)
  • Joria - Sanctuary
    Joria - Sanctuary Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    If you don't wanna pull aggro you might wanna start a little soft on the damage :P

    Send the pet manually and let it bash before you cast, or time it so you are halfway through your first spell when the bash hits. But of course add flesh reams and other threat building attacks your pet might have :P

    Start with Ironwood Scarab, then cast Noxious, that way the pet gets a little extra threat through the pDef debuff, and the longer cast time on Noxious is a better alternative than waiting a few seconds. Follow up with Venomous and Ironwood again if needed.

    If you cast the spells in that order the Ironwood Scarab will be ready just as you finish casting the Venomous Scarab :) I don't have any -channeling gear yet, but I assume it will stay fairly sameish.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    In case you do not know, there is a pet skill that costs 150k and that does nothing but steal/get aggro..... ROAR is your friend (specialy if you are a nuker or have a pet with low damage/low skills)
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Yeah roar is the best thing to keep aggro. I wouldd have gotten that but it does no damage. ;o

    I don't have these problems that Tear is talking about though. I kill the mobs too quickly, even higher lvl mobs. Maybe if he didn't put those points into vit he wouldn't have these problems either. b:laugh
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    I am with you, on my main pets I dont use Roar... My golem has 3 attack skills and Threaten b:laugh

    But on low damage/low level pets I usualy throw Roar in since it gives me peace of mind not having to worry about stealing aggro from pet.
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Tearvalerin - Sanctuary
    Tearvalerin - Sanctuary Posts: 3,787 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    Yeah roar is the best thing to keep aggro. I wouldd have gotten that but it does no damage. ;o

    I don't have these problems that Tear is talking about though. I kill the mobs too quickly, even higher lvl mobs. Maybe if he didn't put those points into vit he wouldn't have these problems either. b:laugh

    i have a lot of magic ;P. with my TT80 wep, gloves, and new rings itll be ~335
    not to mention my wheel of life is +7 >_>; my problem is if i -try- to kill too fast i end up getting hurt lol
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I am with you, on my main pets I dont use Roar... My golem has 3 attack skills and Threaten b:laugh

    That setup works beautifully. Using that, my pet can keep aggro even from nukers. Just have to make sure you cycle through all your skills, and keep doing it. I've actually kept aggro off of Barbs in TT runs doing that. I think the cleric felt awkward... Healing a Barb that wasn't taking any damage. b:chuckle
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Roar is worse than Bash and Flesh Ream for keeping aggro. It seems to give the same aggro as those skills, but does no damage. The extra damage from Flesh Ream means FR > Roar for keeping aggro. And Bash's 8 sec cooldown vs. 15 sec for Roar means Bash > Roar.

    What Roar is good for is taking back aggro when you have nuked so much that a single Bash or FR from your pet couldn't take back aggro. Roar will always <i>give back</i> aggro to your pet, but it's not the best for <i>keeping<i/> aggro.
  • IceJazmin - Heavens Tear
    IceJazmin - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,206 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Roar is worse than Bash and Flesh Ream for keeping aggro. It seems to give the same aggro as those skills, but does no damage. The extra damage from Flesh Ream means FR > Roar for keeping aggro. And Bash's 8 sec cooldown vs. 15 sec for Roar means Bash > Roar.

    What Roar is good for is taking back aggro when you have nuked so much that a single Bash or FR from your pet couldn't take back aggro. Roar will always <i>give back</i> aggro to your pet, but it's not the best for <i>keeping<i/> aggro.

    I dont auto-use the Roar skill, than select it when my pet looses aggro so he gets it back. It is way safer and faster than any other skill to get the aggro back on the pet. If I hit a critical on the mob, I also use roar rigth after it, since roar resets the hate level of everyone on the mob, so that huge critical will not count towards his hate for me.

    I saw your other post on the skill aggro holding, and it seems to be spot on. I was not sure if Roar was better or worse at holding aggro, since it resets the hate level of the mob, I was suspecting that using a skill that builds up the hate would be better at holding aggro, but I never got to test it to be sure, so I was glad to see your post :)
    Too often we loose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that mother#$@%#^! upside the head.
  • Chalkara - Lost City
    Chalkara - Lost City Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    ok im a light veno, so i dont hit as hard as you guys, but have you tryed using lucky scarub 1st? that few seconds of stun will let you pet get in bash and another hit after and lucky is also a fairly hard hiting spell and my herc holds aggro though everything unless i do a double crit with iron and any other skill
  • Miabi - Lost City
    Miabi - Lost City Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    i can steal aggro from golem if i nuke too fast, too, and i'm a heavy veno
  • Toxic - Dreamweaver
    Toxic - Dreamweaver Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited April 2009
    1st battle: You had your pet use flesh ream and bash right away at the beginning of the fight. You used Ironwood>Venomous>Venomous

    2nd battle: Your pet ONLY used flesh ream, and you started off with noxious gas.

    Why not use exactly the same skills in the 2 battles, then I'll believe it. :/

    edit: Okay, saw the second video now, missed it first time through. I don't know what my magic is right now since game is down, but I know as long as Herc is using Bash, I rarely ever pull aggro even nuking all out.
    <3 Tapout <3

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