Noob Questions for an unusual PvE Veno Build
ariastama
Posts: 4 Arc User
I'm toying around with a highly unusual veno build. I have no idea if it will work. It might fail miserably when I get into higher levels.
But I'm OK with that. I'm creating this character more to experiment and have fun. So please refrain from flames about what an idiot I am, or how stupid my build is, or how I fail at life, or whatever. I'm just trying out something crazy to see how it goes. And if it does fail, I'll simply restat later.
Basically, I'm trying to create a pure melee fox. I'm around level 30 now, and I've been approximately adding 2.5 STR, .5 DEX, 1.5 MAG, and .5 VIT every level (I've adjusted this a little so that I could equip the fb19 weapon). In short, I want to equip the latest heavy and arcane armor, and I'm putting the rest of my points into vitality.
(As an aside, I am aware that there is a thread stickied at the top of the forum that discusses melee venos. I've read it, and it seems uberhelpful. But since I'm PvE, and because I'm interested in a purely melee veno as opposed to a hybrid, a new thread seemed appropriate.)
OK now that my long introduction is out of the way, to my question.
My question is about how pet aggression works. In short, How does it work?
Is it related to damage per second? Right now, I'm using a varicose scorpion. It's high damage and decent evasion for when I use befuddling mist is my justification for using this pet, though if you can think of a better pet to use, please suggest it. I've crunched the numbers, and right now, my scorpion is doing more damage per second than my fox. If my math is right, when I get the full bonus from melee mastery in the later levels (and possibly some physical attack bonuses from equipment), I think I'll be able to get more DPS than my pet.
I'd rather have more aggresion than my pet for a few reasons. I'll be able to put bramble on myself, so I'll be able to get extra damage in that way. Also, since my defense will be so high, I won't mind taking hits. Since I'll eventually have leech a higher level of metabolic boost, I don't think it'll be a big problem for me to lose HP from taking hits. Lastly, since my magic attack will be so low, my pet heal will be really crappy, so I won't want to waste a lot of time healing my pet all of the time. In fact, I anticipate that I may have trouble keeping my pet alive at higher levels if it keeps drawing aggro.
Does Bash help take aggression? If it does, then that's obviously a bad thing for me. If it does, what pet skill would be best for my type of build?
OK, so if you tell me I'm an idiot and should restate as a pure magic veno, I'm going to ignore you, but if you have any information on how I could tweak this character to make it work better, I'd greatly appreciate it.
But I'm OK with that. I'm creating this character more to experiment and have fun. So please refrain from flames about what an idiot I am, or how stupid my build is, or how I fail at life, or whatever. I'm just trying out something crazy to see how it goes. And if it does fail, I'll simply restat later.
Basically, I'm trying to create a pure melee fox. I'm around level 30 now, and I've been approximately adding 2.5 STR, .5 DEX, 1.5 MAG, and .5 VIT every level (I've adjusted this a little so that I could equip the fb19 weapon). In short, I want to equip the latest heavy and arcane armor, and I'm putting the rest of my points into vitality.
(As an aside, I am aware that there is a thread stickied at the top of the forum that discusses melee venos. I've read it, and it seems uberhelpful. But since I'm PvE, and because I'm interested in a purely melee veno as opposed to a hybrid, a new thread seemed appropriate.)
OK now that my long introduction is out of the way, to my question.
My question is about how pet aggression works. In short, How does it work?
Is it related to damage per second? Right now, I'm using a varicose scorpion. It's high damage and decent evasion for when I use befuddling mist is my justification for using this pet, though if you can think of a better pet to use, please suggest it. I've crunched the numbers, and right now, my scorpion is doing more damage per second than my fox. If my math is right, when I get the full bonus from melee mastery in the later levels (and possibly some physical attack bonuses from equipment), I think I'll be able to get more DPS than my pet.
I'd rather have more aggresion than my pet for a few reasons. I'll be able to put bramble on myself, so I'll be able to get extra damage in that way. Also, since my defense will be so high, I won't mind taking hits. Since I'll eventually have leech a higher level of metabolic boost, I don't think it'll be a big problem for me to lose HP from taking hits. Lastly, since my magic attack will be so low, my pet heal will be really crappy, so I won't want to waste a lot of time healing my pet all of the time. In fact, I anticipate that I may have trouble keeping my pet alive at higher levels if it keeps drawing aggro.
Does Bash help take aggression? If it does, then that's obviously a bad thing for me. If it does, what pet skill would be best for my type of build?
OK, so if you tell me I'm an idiot and should restate as a pure magic veno, I'm going to ignore you, but if you have any information on how I could tweak this character to make it work better, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Post edited by ariastama on
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Comments
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Usually venos do not use the heavy build for a couple of reasons.First being that even with heavy armor and what not, you still can't tank. I'm sure you have realized that fox form uses magic weapons. Since you need stats on magic to use high level weapons, pumping stats into strength in order to use heavy armor will result in you using weapons that are much lower than you so either way you won't be able to pull aggro. However, some venos use light armor so you might wanna experiment with that. IF THIS IS A HOUSE OF PANCAKES, WHY CAN'T I EAT THE WALLS?0
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From the info I've been able to gather, heavy is really only useful 90+ in TW. LA should suit you fine as a melee build and you will still be able to use best magic weapons. 1str, 1dex, 3 magic per level.
I haven't actually done the math, but isn't mixing HA and AA about the same as just using LA? Seems like it would be.0 -
You will not be able to equip both the latest heavy armor and the latest arcane armor. To have both of them would require 2.5 str 2.5 mag .5 dex every level, overextending your stats. Stick with the latest heavy armor and just let arcane lag behind. Eventually when you start refining your equipment it's going to be superfluous to have an additional set of arcane armor when the hp bonus from your heavy will outweigh any additional magic bonus the arcane adds.
Pet aggression works on dps yes, and skills like bash or any offensive skill will add to the aggro. No one really knows the exact formula, but for example if your pet uses a level 5 bash at the start of the battle it's basically going to take aggro away from you unless you're doing a **** ton more dps than it is.
Easiest thing to do is just start the battle yourself, and when you've got it down a fourth of the way or so send in your pet with attack skills off for support damage. Skills you probably want to look into would be any buff skills you might get your hands on (very rare, don't count on getting these), the reduce damage (tough I think it was called? It's called crustaceous in my version.) Embrave (it only heals 12% of the pets hp at max level, but since you can spam it every 10 seconds it will at least save you the trouble of using your own weak heal).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
You will not be able to equip both the latest heavy armor and the latest arcane armor. To have both of them would require 2.5 str 2.5 mag .5 dex every level, overextending your stats. Stick with the latest heavy armor and just let arcane lag behind. Eventually when you start refining your equipment it's going to be superfluous to have an additional set of arcane armor when the hp bonus from your heavy will outweigh any additional magic bonus the arcane adds.
Pet aggression works on dps yes, and skills like bash or any offensive skill will add to the aggro. No one really knows the exact formula, but for example if your pet uses a level 5 bash at the start of the battle it's basically going to take aggro away from you unless you're doing a **** ton more dps than it is.
Easiest thing to do is just start the battle yourself, and when you've got it down a fourth of the way or so send in your pet with attack skills off for support damage. Skills you probably want to look into would be any buff skills you might get your hands on (very rare, don't count on getting these), the reduce damage (tough I think it was called? It's called crustaceous in my version.) Embrave (it only heals 12% of the pets hp at max level, but since you can spam it every 10 seconds it will at least save you the trouble of using your own weak heal).
Crustaceous = Tough
Embrave = Boost[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
You will not be able to equip both the latest heavy armor and the latest arcane armor. To have both of them would require 2.5 str 2.5 mag .5 dex every level, overextending your stats. Stick with the latest heavy armor and just let arcane lag behind. Eventually when you start refining your equipment it's going to be superfluous to have an additional set of arcane armor when the hp bonus from your heavy will outweigh any additional magic bonus the arcane adds.
Pet aggression works on dps yes, and skills like bash or any offensive skill will add to the aggro. No one really knows the exact formula, but for example if your pet uses a level 5 bash at the start of the battle it's basically going to take aggro away from you unless you're doing a **** ton more dps than it is.
Easiest thing to do is just start the battle yourself, and when you've got it down a fourth of the way or so send in your pet with attack skills off for support damage. Skills you probably want to look into would be any buff skills you might get your hands on (very rare, don't count on getting these), the reduce damage (tough I think it was called? It's called crustaceous in my version.) Embrave (it only heals 12% of the pets hp at max level, but since you can spam it every 10 seconds it will at least save you the trouble of using your own weak heal).
Thanks for the advice on pet abilities. And you might be right on scapping arcane entirely in favor of heavy armor. But I've double and triple and quadruple checked after reading your post, and I'm absolutely positive that you only need 1.5 MAG and .5 STR in order to wear arcane armor, so I would be able to wear both if I chose to do so and still have .5 points to spare.0 -
Thanks for the advice on pet abilities. And you might be right on scapping arcane entirely in favor of heavy armor. But I've double and triple and quadruple checked after reading your post, and I'm absolutely positive that you only need 1.5 MAG and .5 STR in order to wear arcane armor, so I would be able to wear both if I chose to do so and still have .5 points to spare.
The level 30 Rank 2 piece Of the Tamer set doesn't have Magic stat requirements, and beyond that, unless I'm way off, Rank based armor doesn't have stat reqs.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Ok you realize people have ALREADY tried stuff like this and failed miserably? Theres like 50 million previous versions of this game. I think if it was a viable build then it would have dropped down to this version.
But if you wanna waste your time and money for something thats already been tested and proven to be garbage...go ahead. =/0 -
Literature - Harshlands wrote: »Ok you realize people have ALREADY tried stuff like this and failed miserably? Theres like 50 million previous versions of this game. I think if it was a viable build then it would have dropped down to this version.
But if you wanna waste your time and money for something thats already been tested and proven to be garbage...go ahead. =/
Oh wow, Lit proves how much fail she is capable of yet again.
Please, Lit, stop trolling in here, and if you really have nothing of value to contribute to a thread in this section, please go back to the General forums.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Literature, read whole thread before you post
*points to the quote bellow*
There are some ppl who actually want to try out their own strategy, not to blindly follow others.But I'm OK with that. I'm creating this character more to experiment and have fun. So please refrain from flames about what an idiot I am, or how stupid my build is, or how I fail at life, or whatever. I'm just trying out something crazy to see how it goes. And if it does fail, I'll simply restat later.
ariastama, good luck with your built. I wonder how it will turn out and what kind of role you could take in squads...0 -
Keep going with your build. I am a full Fox Form Veno and I am far more survivable than Mage Venos and easily as deadly if not more because I hit more often and quite hard.
As for Pets I am not sure what keeps Aggro on them but from what I am told it is pure damage however there is a skill called "Roar" I believe that automatically grabs Aggro. This is cheap, 150K and can get the enemy off you in a tight situation.
If you use Apothecary Powders and Soul Transfusion wisely you can easily tank Damage (Short of Bosses that is for your pet) and you and your pet can attack and kill different targets at the same time if you wish. I can survive 3 monsters 5 levels my superior on me without my pet even out. You just have to be quick and attentive to your HP/MP. You will need to use Magic Weapons so you will need Magic and it will help you with an extra MP tank for HP when needed and you can ware a few pieces of Arcane armor to get yourself some good resists all around.0 -
Hrmm look at all the nubs jumping all over me. If you read the thread he says "if it fails I'll just reset". It WILL fail because it has been PROVEN to fail in the past. You are doing nothing new.
But like I said, if you wanna waste your time and money, who can stop you? b:laugh0 -
Literature - Harshlands wrote: »Hrmm look at all the nubs jumping all over me. If you read the thread he says "if it fails I'll just reset". It WILL fail because it has been PROVEN to fail in the past. You are doing nothing new.
But like I said, if you wanna waste your time and money, who can stop you? b:laugh
I see Lit has once again failed to post anything constructive or useful. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Literature - Harshlands wrote: »Hrmm look at all the nubs jumping all over me. If you read the thread he says "if it fails I'll just reset". It WILL fail because it has been PROVEN to fail in the past. You are doing nothing new.
But like I said, if you wanna waste your time and money, who can stop you? b:laugh
Thank you for your input. Your constructive criticism is appreciated. I will take your comments under advisement.0 -
Thank you for your input. Your constructive criticism is appreciated. I will take your comments under advisement.
Please don't take anything Lit says under advisement. This does seem interesting and think if u have fun with it its all good.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm just a vagabond with flowers for Algernon...0 -
Oh, you're right. I had assumed it would have similar stat requirements to heavy armor except favored towards mag/str rather than str/dex. I still stand by my point of refining, but there's no harm in you keeping two sets until you reach a high enough level where it becomes worth refining your armor.Thanks for the advice on pet abilities. And you might be right on scapping arcane entirely in favor of heavy armor. But I've double and triple and quadruple checked after reading your post, and I'm absolutely positive that you only need 1.5 MAG and .5 STR in order to wear arcane armor, so I would be able to wear both if I chose to do so and still have .5 points to spare.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I felt like I should post an update on my build so far.
I'm level 45 as of this post, and I just soloed the Elven fb19. Yeah, not terribly impressive, right? This final boss should be easy for a veno at my level.
Except that I did it without a pet. I'm pretty sure this isn't possible for a pure magic veno at my level.
I soloed most of dungeon and the boss himself sans pet, but I did use a pet a few times, I'll confess. I was too intimidated to attack the boss while he was surrounded by his three or four mobs, so I lured them away and finished them off individually. One cactopod didn't seem to want to be lured, so I instead lured the boss to a safer area and finished him off here without a pet. So I only used my pet to lure mobs away, and I only did so at the very end. And in case you were wondering, no Guardian Charm was used.
I'm not trying to claim that this is the best veno build. I'm just saying that, so far, it seems viable, and seems to be capable of doing things that a pure mage veno can't do. For example, pure mage venos are often afraid of AoE attacks. I think this build will be able to stand them pretty well.
I know a few of you feel that full foxform venos are complete failures. Do they fail at higher levels? Right now, my fox is strong enough to take on mobs my level without a pet, so I'd say that it's viable so far.
A few thoughts on this build and my experiences with it.
* Levels 9-28 were very awkward. There aren't a lot of foxform skills, and I was very pet dependent. Luckily, my pet was strong enough to take on these mobs without me.
* At level 29, I gained Soul Transfusion and the second level of Foxform. This made the game a lot easier for me.
* At level 39, I gained Leech. This is by far my favorite ability, and it is at this level that I think this build really seems to be coming into its own.
* I feel augmented by my pet rather than dependent on it. Often, my pet and I can take on three or four mobs at my level, though this typically burns through my mana due to skill spamming. In contrast, when attacked by two mobs, the mage veno finds herself temporarily running for cover.
* I'm pretty good about saving coin, but I decided to splurge and get a level 22 mirage sword, and I'm still using it. I'm not sure if using legendary weapons is considered cheating when soloing final bosses. Because of my low magic, I don't need to upgrade my weapons very often.
* Repairs on my weapon are annoying. Magic weapons have the endurance to cast spells. They don't have the endurance to withstand continual thwapping. I have to repair my weapon frequently.
* Potions are largely unnecessary. I only use them in emergencies. Another poster mentioned apothecary skills, and I think this is good advice. I'm level 3 right now, and while I have manufactured several items, I haven't experimented with them much. I used Life Powder when I was fighting water mobs without a pet though, and this made me one very tough fox.
* Even though I have to make a lot of repairs, I don't need to spend money on pots or charms. Therefore, making money with this build is easy so far.
* As long as I wear the right armor, I'm very difficult to kill and very durable. Physical mobs are a joke. I equip heavy armor, and with the defense bonus of foxform, their hits hardly hurt me at all. Magic mobs aren't much of a threat, because I'll just wear arcane, which blocks out a lot of the damage.
* I'm vulnerable if I don't equip the right armor. I'm kind of squishy against strong magic mobs if I only have heavy armor, and very squishy against phsyical mobs if I only have arcane armor.
* Mobs that have strong physical and magical attacks can be a problem, as I cannot gear up for one type of attack. A mix of the two seems best, but these mobs are still the most troublesome to fight.
* I don't solo as quickly as a pure mage veno, but I still feel like I'm pretty fast with this character.
* With the exception of Leech, I usually only use special attacks in an emergency, like if my pet and I are being attacked by four mobs, and I have to kill them as soon as possible. Special attacks drain mana quickly, and I like to use my mana bar as a second HP bar with Soul Transfusion.
* When I do spam special attacks, I can do a lot of damage in a hurry. I tried Focus Powder once while questing mobs, and I became a furry whirlwind of damage.
* My pet heal is weak, but not as weak as I anticipated. I have to cast it three or four times to regain full HP in my pet. So it's annoying at times, but not completely useless
* If I leave Bash (the pet skill) on, my pet will usually keep aggro. If I turn it off (by right clicking), I usually have aggro since I outdamage my pet. I switch back and forth between leaving Bash on and off, largely depending on our relative HP and the situation.
* I experimented using a Varicose Scorpion for a while, but abandoned this for a Magmite. I don't know why I considered using anything other than a Magmite.
* I don't think of this character as being superior or inferior to Barbarians or Blademasters. I prefer to think of it as a third melee character.
* I'll never be able to tank for a party with this character, as I have no skills to draw aggro. However, I believe a duo with a healing cleric could be very powerful against strong baddies.
That's it so far. If this continues to go well, I'm planning on writing a guide on this build once I get to level 65-70, and I believe I can mathematically justify the build that I am following so far. I'll update again when I get close to 60.0 -
ooo...What cactopods are in the elven FB 19? Are they tameable? b:victory[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Why not use a pet with less attack and more evasion/regeneration?
Centipexes have the best evasion and hp regen. Less attack means they might not draw agro so much.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Thank for the update, ariastama. Very interesting to read and think about.0
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I know a few of you feel that full foxform venos are complete failures. Do they fail at higher levels?
Those who say that knows nothing about heavy armored foxform venos.
Here is the stats for a level 9x heavy veno :
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1KysX0
(most likely fully buffed by others tho)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Brit for the sig b:laugh0 -
Appreciate the update. I've been playing around more with fox form, and it's fun.
Yeah, the first couple times I hit the Cube room 6 (the one with the beholder-like AOE boss), I blew tons of powders, potions, and mantou fighting it in mage form. Then I had one of those "Duh!" moments and did it in fox form. Leech makes the AOE damage a breeze to tank.it seems viable, and seems to be capable of doing things that a pure mage veno can't do. For example, pure mage venos are often afraid of AoE attacks. I think this build will be able to stand them pretty well.
Mirage sword is nice, but low level. I've been killing Qingzi trying to get an Order of the Stars, which is really rare (I've only ever seen two on auction). I've gotten two of the handaxes of demonic roar (also very rare), but no OotS yet.* I'm pretty good about saving coin, but I decided to splurge and get a level 22 mirage sword, and I'm still using it. I'm not sure if using legendary weapons is considered cheating when soloing final bosses. Because of my low magic, I don't need to upgrade my weapons very often.
* Repairs on my weapon are annoying. Magic weapons have the endurance to cast spells. They don't have the endurance to withstand continual thwapping. I have to repair my weapon frequently.
I started using fox form extensively in my 50s, using both a Wheel of Fate (glaive) and an Ancient Arbor (sword). I didn't take measurements, but I could swear the glaive needed a lot more repair when I used it in melee. So in terms of good weapons, an Order of the Stars is probably going to be your best bet for a long time (the Ancient Arbor has a 180 int requirement, 3x the level requirement).0 -
note that this is not a pve build, in my opinion
GREAT for PVP(idk bout pk-ing), i have a build like this
also i would use a pet like magmite or ant becase they got more defense so u dont have to heal as often0 -
Quicky update. This is actually ariastima, the originaly poster. I finally figured out how to make an avatar, woo!
I'm level 59 as of this post. Obviously, if you look at the date of my original post, you can see that leveling isn't a problem for this character at all. So much for all the nay-sayers out there who think melee venos don't work. >.> The build continues to work great. I half expected it to be a complete fail, so I'm relieved.
Also, I think I'm going to write a guide on this build once I reach level 70. I'm waiting until then only because it doesn't seem to me like anyone under level 70 should write a guide. =p
I don't have much to add that I haven't said already. Not a lot of info is out there on pure melee venos, so I'll try to get to 70 ASAP and get a guide out there for all of you who may be interested. Later!0 -
You should consider using a Shadou Cub, while its phys def is not as high as the cmag, it does have considerably more magic def and still very decent hp/regen. Also because of its lower damage and its four starting skills not including Bash, it will not pull aggro of the enemy you are attacking. If you do use the Shadou you may want to considering replacing two of the ss with Consume and Boost, perhaps also adding Penetrate while just keeping the Pierce. Also it is worth noting the Shadou's smaller stature will eliminate a lot of shift+clicking.
*Yes, I know that a Shadou with starting lv of 20 will take some time to build up, but I think it would be a very good investment in the long run.0
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