hercules with claw

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Lolas - Heavens Tear
Lolas - Heavens Tear Posts: 43 Arc User
edited April 2009 in General Discussion
I always looked forward to getting claw on my hercules. Well I finally got it, and thought I would post how it works, for others thinking of getting it.

I knew losing bash, I would lose a little bit of aggro control. But figured that the extra 30% damage would at least help with a little of the aggro. Well I thought drastically wrong :( I've taken aggro more times in the few days without bash, than i did in the 3 months before. Against single targets with bash. I just let the herc bash 1 time, then I could nuke as much as i wanted. Against multiples. I could bash each one once, then cast AOE without taking aggro to often. Now against single targets I have to wait longer, and cast less not to get aggro. With multiple mobs, I now take aggro more often than not.

On the positive side. When I don't steal aggro, the fights are noticeably faster. Especially boss fights. Against bosses you are usualy just healing. So the extra dps helps a lot against them.

If we could just take the skill off and sell it, I would in a second. But I spent over 5 million on claw, and upgrades. And it would take another million to get bash back, and upgraded. I hate the thought of wasting that much money, so I'm going to keep claw for now, and try to adjust my play style to it. But I fully expect that I will end up changing back.

I wouldn't suggest anyone getting claw for their hercules.
Post edited by Lolas - Heavens Tear on

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  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    If you take low damage and add 30% to it you still have low damage.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Obsessed - Heavens Tear
    Obsessed - Heavens Tear Posts: 670 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    I was gonna get claw for my scorpion, bu tdidnt have the 4mil at the time, guess you're the one who got the skill. What Zoe said is so true lol.
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Ahh I'm feelin kinda sorry for the OP. Thats alot of money.

    Suddenly, the small mistakes I have made with my char don't look so bad. b:laugh

    -edit- Zoe how do you have so much attack?
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you take low damage and add 30% to it you still have low damage.

    Doesn't matter, Zoe, a Herc with Claw will do more damage than a herc with Bash.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Lolas - Heavens Tear
    Lolas - Heavens Tear Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you take low damage and add 30% to it you still have low damage.

    Yea, I wasn't expecting to turn the hercules into a phoenix. I knew he still wouldn't have great damage. But I figured he would have more dps than with bash. And I think I was right. What I did wrong, was to vastly undervalue the aggro control of bash.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    Ahh I'm feelin kinda sorry for the OP. Thats alot of money.

    Suddenly, the small mistakes I have made with my char don't look so bad. b:laugh

    -edit- Zoe how do you have so much attack?

    I'm a sage veno, I'm sure you know what that means.b:laugh
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Doesn't matter, Zoe, a Herc with Claw will do more damage than a herc with Bash.

    Damage is worthless if it can't hold agro. A phoenix has the damage output to get agro without even using any skills. A hercules does not and claw will not change that as already stated.

    Edit: Something to add, even with level 5 bash I steal agro from my herc often now ever since I got sage venomous scarab. It just needs to hit harder.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'm a sage veno, I'm sure you know what that means.b:laugh

    lol I don't. b:shocked
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Literature - Harshlands wrote: »
    lol I don't. b:shocked

    I have this:

    Celestial Eruption

    Discharge three spark to recover 20% of your maximum mp, acquire 900% extra magic attack, and 500% weapon attack for 15 seconds.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Literature - Harshlands
    Literature - Harshlands Posts: 822 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I have this:

    Celestial Eruption

    Discharge three spark to recover 20% of your maximum mp, acquire 900% extra magic attack, and 500% weapon attack for 15 seconds.

    lol thats pro. I wonder what you would hit for with that + amp + crit. Highest I've done is 22k with that combo. I used the 400% spark ofc.
  • Energize - Heavens Tear
    Energize - Heavens Tear Posts: 217 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Thanks a lot for this information. I was contemplating doing the same with my herc but I guess I won't be doing that anymore.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    GaliNaab here, your neighbourhood friendly male venomancer.
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Damage is worthless if it can't hold agro. A phoenix has the damage output to get agro without even using any skills. A hercules does not and claw will not change that as already stated.

    Holding aggro wasn't my point.

    That it would do more damage with claw than with Bash was my point. Besides, the OP stated quite clearly that the herc wasn't holding aggro with claw like it did with bash making additional commentary on claw being able to or not able to hold aggro pointless.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • redonyou
    redonyou Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    I also have claw on my herc. What you need to realize bash is frontloaded damage and it takes claw 4 swings to overtake the damage of bash.

    So your herc with claw will start off a little slower on grabbing agro but should over time should do more damage and do hold it better. You just can't pull with ironwood and have him swing once as the mob is inc to pull it off of you. What I do is click pet attack and right as he's getting in the first swing I'll start casting ironwood.

    On a lower level herc leveling up I would definately prefer bash. Over the course of leveling being comfortable knowing he'll grab agro on that first hit, plus the fights more often than not not lasting more than 20 seconds I'd say bash would be better.

    At level 80 however, especially when you also have a phoenix for grinding, I'd take claw. The biggest use for herc then is tanking bosses and doing HH runs etc, where waiting for him to get 3 swings to overtake the damage of bash isn't really a big deal.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited April 2009
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    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you take low damage and add 30% to it you still have low damage.
    The herc does more damage than the golem. In fact aside from the phoenix, I suspect it's the highest DPS pet you can get.

    There's a thread on the veno forum where we hashed out the numbers. Bash on a herc or golem ends up adding about 14%-15% extra DPS over using no skills. So Claw's 30% should easily exceed that.
    redonyou wrote: »
    I also have claw on my herc. What you need to realize bash is frontloaded damage and it takes claw 4 swings to overtake the damage of bash.

    So your herc with claw will start off a little slower on grabbing agro but should over time should do more damage and do hold it better.

    I really don't think that's it. If you add up your golem's damage and compare to your spell damage, you'll see that your spells easily outdamage the golem. e.g. My golem does about 1200 every 1.67 sec, over 1500 with Bash. That's about 756 DPS. But my spells do about 5000 (ironwood) and 3000 (venomous) every 1.5 to 2.5 sec. It's about 1600 DPS. I outdamage the golem 2:1, yet the golem manages to hold aggro.

    I'm fairly certain that there's a separate but hidden aggro counter. Doing damage adds to this aggro counter, but I suspect certain skills like Bash add more to it than just their base damage. The best evidence for this is Roar. It does no damage, yet can grab aggro.

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