Fox form, Heavy/light armor, and maths

Use this: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/
It lets you customize equips.

And fyi, Heavy build is pointless if you can't use best magic weapon for level. So get stat equips or forget about it.

Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thank you for the simulator, I'll check with better equips when I have time. Still, it lacks additionnal stats, but that's only a minor issue.

I can't see how you can have enougth stat points to have both the heavy armor and the best (standard) weapon for level, even with stat equips. If i'm not mistaken you need 76 points more at lvl 80, and the right ones !
I read somewhere that people use lvl 22 golden weapon, and even some go barehanded (which is quite dumb)...

See here:

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So here it is, me and my 90 gear and stats. Hehe 3 points to spare. Still working on getting matching TT90 robes. b:pleased

Gears:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7707/geare.jpg

Stats buffed and unbuffed(barb/BM/cleric):
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9504/statshht.jpg


b:pleased

I know using only lvl80 bracers.. but if I had the TT90 cape could easily wear anything. Basically just saying it IS possible to wear same level weapon/HA, just takes a lot of work.

The people who use low level magic weapons, generally pump STR(for more melee damage) and use low level weapons.Which I've heard actually ends up doing more melee damage then using the best weapon, since there is less points wasted on mag. Never calculated it out though, dont really care for melee damage, I still use spells as HA.

Interesting thread.

You point out that light armor has better magic defense than heavy armor. This is definitely true.

But a heavy armor fox has enough magic to mix and match heavy and arcane armor. With the right mix of heavy and arcane, you can get better pdef and mdef than light armor alone. I'll try to come up with an example later, or you can try it out yourself if you want.

Furthermore, since a heavy fox and wear both arcane and heavy armor, they can gear-up with heavy against physical opponents or arcane against magic opponents. I personally like the flexibility of the heavy fox.

A quick question of my own on critical hits. Does a 2% critical hit rate mean that 2% of all of your hits are critical? I'm really not sure.

Keep in mind that if the above is true, then a 2% critical hit rate only increases your average damage by 2%, a 5% rate increases your overall damage by 5%, and so on.

Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »

But a heavy armor fox has enough magic to mix and match heavy and arcane armor. With the right mix of heavy and arcane, you can get better pdef and mdef than light armor alone. I'll try to come up with an example later, or you can try it out yourself if you want.

I've seen this before. In ecatomb's calculator, there is only 1 setup that does this: heavy top, everything else arcane. That assumes that the veno is using the highest grade available for that level. Any other combination of grade or heavy/arcane mix resulted in either one being higher, but not both. o.o

To be honest, the amount of extra resists isn't all that noteworthy. It's a nice footnote, but not really a compelling reason to use a Heavy/Arcane mix. o.o

Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote:

All constructive comments or remarks are welcome.

One of the things I've noticed about Heavy setups is that they seem to be compromise setups. They can get some powerful results, but another aspect of their character has to be reduced to allow it. For example "insane pdef" while having to wear a weaker weapon. o.o

Even Reikara's and Obsessed's setups are like this. While they definitely have some impressive results, it requires a considerable amount of +stat gear and respecting that may not be available or affordable to a given person. It can also prevent a veno from using gear he/she wants to use since there may not be room for it and the +stat gear at the same time. o.o

Light setups don't have to deal with those issues. It's only downside is that it's "good" but not "Great" at any one thing. Well, except accuracy and crit rate. o.o

Ok, I played around with ecatombs.net a bit, and I've come up with the following numbers.

And before I do this, I don't want this so sound like I'm flaming Laranda and her/his opinion on light armor vs. heavy armor. I just respectively disagree with the position, and I'm trying to provide evidence to prove my point.

Also, I love the detail the original poster went through when starting this topic. It made it much easier for me when I went to play around with numbers on ecatombs.net

So I primarily analyzed the heavy level 80 build that's described by the OP. I don't think the original poster mentioned this, but I'm 99% sure she/he equipped physical belts and necklaces. As with the original poster, I only used the best NPC items.

First, wearing a mixture of heavy/arcane:
Armor: arcane
Leggings: heavy
Footwear: heavy
Wristguards: arcane

I got the following defense results:
Pdef (fox): 5733.2
Mdef: 2691

To remind you, the light armor fox described by the original poster had:
Pdef (fox): 4061.2
Mdef: 2657

So the magical defenses are practically the same, while the physical defense of the heavy armor fox is still significantly higher.

But I'll reiterate I think the real power of the heavy/arcane mix is that is can mix and match. Against a purely physical opponent, the heavy fox can wear all heavy armor, and against a magic opponent, all arcane. In short, against every possible opponent, the heavy/arcane fox is going to have more (often significantly more) defense than the light fox.

I'll grant that the critical rate, evasion, and accuracy of the light armor fox will be higher, but in my opinion that doesn't outweigh the defense bonus of the heavy/arcane fox. I also think that it's clear that in a melee duel, the heavy armor fox would destroy the light armor fox. The light armor has slightly more damage, but the physical defense of the heavy armor fox is just too high.

I think I have a better build for the heavy armor fox though. I'll compare this to the aforementioned (original) heavy armor build.

Alternative (Alt) Heavy:

Str: Min for latest heavy armor
Dex: Min for latest heavy armor
Mag: Min for latest arcane armor
Vit: Remaining points (sounds bizarre considering you only get 12 HP per 1 Vit, but I'll be sure to explain my reasoning)

So at level 80, we have:

Str: 202
Dex: 44
Mag: 123
Vit: 46

Alt Heavy:
Human total Patk: 708-818
(Weapon Glaive lvl39 : 132-179)
Melee Mastery (+120% weap) : 158.4 - 214.8
Total Fox Form : 866.4-1032.8
Crit : 3%
Heal : 430 + (582-816)*24% = 570-626
Pdef (fox) : 9895.6
Mdef : 1630
HP : 2628 (Heavy casque lvl71)
MP : 3372 - 20% = 2698

Hard to tell at first that this build is better. Let's have them engage in a simplified duel, and see who wins.

Also many people HATE the idea of equipping such a lower-grade weapon. I understand this concern. Most good, solid builds ask you to equip the latest armor and weapons. I think this is the exception to the rule, and I'm going to try to use hard numbers to prove it.

Rules of the simplified duel:

1) Each fox is only allowed to use normal attacks. No special attacks are to be used.

2) Foxes will attack one another, not each other's pets (which is typically what happens in duels anyways)

3) Foxes will be allowed to use one pet that has an average DPS of 1000 (arbitrary number I chose, feel free to adjust as you see fit in your own calculations).

4) We will ignore HP potions and regenerations

5) We will ignore evasion and accuracy (not a big problem as the original and alternative heavy armor builds have the exact same evasion and accuracy)

Useful formula: How is % damage reduction calculated? As follows:

% reduction = Def/(Def+40*lvl)

So, if you're level 80, and your magic defense is 1630, then:

% reduction = 1630/(1630+40*80) = .337 or 33.7%

I'm not sure how this formula adjusts for attackers and defenders who are of different levels, but it's usually pretty damn close as long the attacker and defender are close in levels.

Using the above formula, we have:

Original Heavy % physical damage Reduction: 74.8%

Alternative Heavy % Physical Damage Reduction: 75.6%

Now, let's find the DPS of each build:

Original Heavy DPS = (839+1060)/2 * (1.25 attacks per second) * (1.03 critical hits) + (1000 Pet DPS) = 2222.5

Alternative Heavy DPS = (708+818)/2 * (1.25 attacks per second) * (1.03 critical hits) + (1000 Pet DPS) = 1982.4

Reduced Original Heavy DPS = 2222.5 * (1 - .756) = 542.29

Reduced Alternative Heavy DPS = 1982.4 * (1 - .748) = 499.6

As a reminder:

Original Heavy HP: 2136

Alternative Heavy HP: 2628

Divide HP by reduced damage to find out which lasts longer:

Original Heavy Veno: Dead after 4.28 seconds

Alternative Heavy Veno: Dead after 4.85 seconds

So the alternative heavy veno outlasts the original heavy veno. Most of the time, the alternative is going to win most of these fights. The original is only going to win when it gets lucky, like if it strings together a series of critical hits.

I simulated several such simplified combats. I won't provide the results here, I'll leave that up to you. But here's a few things I noticed.

1) The advantage is smaller, but if no pets are used, the alternative heavy veno will still win.

2) This is sort of a corollary to point 1, but if a stronger pet is used (i.e. one with more DPS), the alternative heavy veno wins by a larger margin.

3) The veno special attacks offer a flat damage bonus on top of your base physical attack. This is mathematically similar to adding a stronger pet. So when special attacks are factored in, the alternative heavy veno will win by a larger margin.

4) I don't know how the formulas for evasion or accuracy work, so I did not know how to simulate a battle between the light armor melee veno and the heavy armor veno. But it was clear to me that both heavy armor venos would have to miss an insanely unrealistic number of times in order for the light armor veno to win.

There are unfortunately three weaknesses in the alternative heavy build that I have to address.

1) You have a weak pet heal. But since this fox is so hard to kill on account of it's high defense and vitality, you're not nearly as dependent on your pet as other veno builds, and often you'll be tanking for your pet as opposed to the other way around.

2) You have low mana, about 30% lower than the light build.

3) Weak magic attack. Don't even considered using magic attacks with this build. But then again, I'm operating under the assumption that your goal is to create a pure foxform melee veno.

And I'm out of time here. This post was long enough already. I promised to justify adding so many points into vitality, but I'll have to save that for another post.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Equipment requirements are 227 str, 267 mag, and 49 dex.
At lvl 90 you'll have 5*89 + 15 = 460 points in str + mag + dex (assume 5 vit).
227 + 267 + 49 - 460 = 83 points left over

Gold, green, and quest equipment gives +36 dex, +24 mag, +20 str.
83 - 36 - 24 - 20 = 3 points that need to be made up in other equipment.

Obsessed's build is very attainable. If you want to try for it, by 90 you should set the following stat goals:

207 str
13 dex
243 mag
(deduct 3 points somewhere from the three)

I dont know if you factored it in but, remember you cant use equipments stat bonuses to wear themselves. So cant use the Weapons +mag, and you can only use 5 dex on the glove(difference between 49 and 44, armor dex require), and you cant count the +dex from the leggings.

Though none of what I use is overall hard to get, take a bit of farming and daily checks of auction house, but isnt any more expensive then a "traditional" build either.

And though I'm using 3star helmet and necklace there are legendary equivlents(also the weapon can get 1 more dex on it x.x) lvl59 legend arcane helmet +8~10 stats, and a lot of +8 stat legendary necklaces. Also if you can get your hands on a TT90 cape(+9 str+dex+mag) it makes it incredibly easier.(though it takes 2x 10mil gold mats... lol)

Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I dont know if you factored it in but, remember you cant use equipments stat bonuses to wear themselves. So cant use the Weapons +mag, and you can only use 5 dex on the glove(difference between 49 and 44, armor dex require), and you cant count the +dex from the leggings.

Did not know that. Still, the extra required stats are just max(str, dex, mag) on the armor and weapons. That looks like... 11+10+7 = 28. So you'll need 28+3 = +31 in stat bonuses. That's still pretty easily attainable IMHO. I'll note the correction in the original post.

Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »

This doesn't sound right to me. I'm not sure I believe it's true -- yet. At least from playing around on ecatombs.net, it seems pretty easy to quickly find the right mix. It's just arithmatic, right?

Is there any way you could provide a more concrete example of the situation to which you are referring?

I was referring to using HA as a leveling build. The TT armors at 70, 80, and 90 all become usable at the same level, so it's easy to find a good mix with them that will last you 10 levels. But at levels lower than 70, there are 16 possible HA armor mixes (all heavy, 4 combos of 1 heavy/3 arcane, 6 combos of 2 heavy/2 arcane, 4 combos of 3 heavy/1 arcane, all arcane). Every level that a new armor piece becomes available, every time you get better armor as a drop, every time you consider a new armor piece you see up for auction, you have to calculate all 16 combos again.

I ran a (admittedly non-exhaustive) search for likely combos over 10 levels (4 armor changes) a few months ago, using the assumption that you were keeping magic high enough to use the best weapon for your level. In most of the combos HA had better pdef but worse mdef, or vice versa. Some it was worse than light in both pdef and mdef. I think there was one combo where HA was better than light in both, but lost that advantage when you leveled to where the next armor piece became available.

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And this is the flaw in your reasoning. A normal HF using a higher level magical weapon will outdamage the other one with using skills.

I address this elsewhere in the thread, but a normal HF using a higher level magical weapon only gets a flat bonus from using skills. It's my third point at the end regarding what I noticed about other calculations.

For example, regardless of the weapon used, level 10 befuddling mist offers a flat damage increase of 1396.6. It is not dependent on the level of weapon used.

If you work out the math, you'll see that in this type of duel, the alternative heavy fox actually benefits if we factor in special attacks. I thought this would be to distracting for my post, but I invite you to do the calculations yourself.

ETA: And I just read Succubae's post.

Maybe the light fox could beat the heavy fox using magic in human form? (speaking of a "real" duel)

A good point. It's entirely possible that a light veno in human form might be able to defeat this build. Hard to say who would win without actually trying it out.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

But you can restat after you equip your gear. So, for example, you could restat once and get really high strength, equip your armor and then restat again and get rid of strength you no longer need.

But this would cost you several hundred thousand coins every time you unequip and re-equip your gear.

Thats wrong, it doesnt work like that. It turns the equipement red, they will be in the slot and equipped but not actually defend you.

I've been doing some calculations cause Im planning to do a switch for heavey armor at lvl 65.. Been collecting right armor (-req and +stats on acc). Unfortunately cannot calculate with the simulator what my phy. def, etc will be cause it doesnt take in account -req/+stats (I did a calculation with lower lvl armor though).. Anyway, at lvl 65 I will be able to war full lvl 8 heavy armor (except boots since they are lvl 66) and still use my TT60 weap (180 INT req)..
I'd be having somewhat of
Int 185
Str 140(+)
Dex 31

After that pump my INT to be able to use the lvl TT70-weap or mold weap at lvl 70.
Yes, I play light.. How would it look like if I didnt switch? basically same weap and full lvl 8 light gear. Now difference is that my p.def will go up a lot, mag def go down, accuracy, crit and eva.. But I didnt nerf down any of my gear for now.. So for me it works.. About HP.. As light I only have base +5 VIT. All my hp comes from shards. As heavy build I get to use the helmet + shards, so my hp shouldnt be lower than LA.

Further.. This how I see it.. Either u can chose to go high mdef/low pdef (arcane), high pdef/low mdef (heavy). Light should be somewhere in the middle.. Sure I live longer than arcane, but generally I found this is not how I want to play my char, pdef/mdef is too mediocre. So now I'd have to chose from high mdef or high pdef. Im not gonna go into reason why I chose the 2nd, but point is it's either A or B and whatever u chose u will lack in the other (arcane lacks pdef, heavy lacks mdef). And since I already play light and feel okay with my mag atk. so switching to heavy wont affect it much.. Theres not a huge loss for me at least to switch from light to heavy.

Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then LA and HA have the same amount of HP...

Anyway, I will do the comarison using the simulator from http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ with better gear.

Heavy adds more hp/per refinement then any other armor type.
obviously robe adds the least, LA in the middle, and Heavy the most. Heres an example of a higher upgraded robe vs heavy.. lol. Both are TT90. Trying to find a LA example, obviously it would be somewhere inbetween x.x. Though I will agree that refinements dont really matter until your endgame gear, so for sake of comparison it might be negligable.

+4 robe --> 107hp
+4 Heavy --> 172hp

Peritia - Lost City wrote: »

Not sure which set of data is incorrect, but PWDB shows the three armour sets as having the same bonus to HP through refining. Of course, I've never refined Arcane/Light/Heavy armour at the same time myself in order to verify these values are correct.

TT70
Arcane | Light | Heavy

TT90
Arcane | Light | Heavy

lol all of it is wrong, and btw your TT90 links dont match up(you have lvl 70robe in TT90 robe, and lvl90robe in the Light armor slot) and... I'm going by ingame values... not some site, I'm staring at them right now. >.>

PWDatabase fails.