Fox form, Heavy/light armor, and maths
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Succubae - Dreamweaver
Posts: 53 Arc User
The other day I was wondering whether the best armor type for a fox form venom was heavy or light. Heavy gives more STR and lots of Pdef while light enables to wear the last weapon for your level and balanced armor.
I was guessing that light was a bit better for damage, as you have a better weapon, but to be sure I decided to look at a simulator and do some maths (not really complicated, sums and multiplications). I used the simulator for the char and the skills at http://www.ecatomb.net/character.php and http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php.
So I tried to compare the stats at lvl 40 and at lvl 80.
Builds
I looked for the builds to deal a maximum damage :
Light:
vit 5
str lvl+6
mag 3*lvl
dex lvl+4
Heavy:
vit 5
str min for last armor
mag remaining points for highest possible magical weapon
dex min for last armor
(I tried to put all points in str and none in mag, but the damage was dramatically lower, something like the half)
Stuff
I used npc stuff only, with 1 star, as the simulator does not enables more stars or additionnal stats. I put the whole armor, with Patk rings.
The weapon was the highest possible in each case.
Skills
I supposed the fox form was highest possible for the level, and Melee mastery also.
Every active skill use the base physical damage, so the weapon has no specific effet for a particular skill. Melee mastery only is concerned by the weapon.
Level 40
Light:
Human total Patk: 275-337
(Weapon Jewel Quoit lvl39 : 132-179)
Melee Mastery (+70% weap) : 92.4-125.3
Total Fox Form : 367.4-502.3
Crit : 3%
Heal : 210 + (519-750)*18% = 303-345
Heavy:
Human total Patk: 261-327
(Weapon Magic sword lvl24 : 77-116)
Melee Mastery (+70% weap) : 53.9-81.2
Total Fox Form : 319.9-408.2
Crit : 2%
Heal : 210 + (301-358)*18% = 264-274
Here we see that Light wins: more damage, more crit, more heal (more survivability), more mana, more mana regen, more Mdef. But of course less Pdef.
If you have a better weapon, it increases the advantage of the light armor due to Melee Mastery. But if you have better armor/rings, str acts as a multiplier for the damage so heavy will have a greater increase. But considering the gap between the two of them, Light is better.
Level 80
Light:
Human total Patk: 718-876
(Weapon Jewel Quoit lvl79 : 287-388)
Melee Mastery (+120% weap) : 344.4-465.6
Total Fox Form : 1062.4-1341.6
Crit : 5%
Heal : 430 + (1730-2512)*26% = 880-1083
Pdef (fox) : 4061.2
Mdef : 2657
HP : 2086 (Heavy casque lvl51)
MP : 4776 - 20% = 3821
Heavy:
Human total Patk: 839-1060
(Weapon Magic sword lvl54 : 188-282)
Melee Mastery (+120% weap) : 225.6-338.4
Total Fox Form : 1064.6-1398.4
Crit : 3%
Heal : 430 + (1028-1226)*24% = 697-749
Pdef (fox) : 9508.4
Mdef : 1630
HP : 2136 (Heavy casque lvl71)
MP : 3864 - 20% = 3091
Here you can see that heavy has slightly more damage than light, a bit more HP, and insane Pdef.
But light still has 2%crit more, more heal, more mana and mana regen and more Mdef.
The same remarks applies as before:
If you have a better weapon, it increases the advantage of the light armor due to Melee Mastery. But if you have better armor/rings, str acts as a multiplier for the damage so heavy will have a greater increase.
Remarks
- I know that my point of view is slightly biased, as I began my WF using light armor. I started these computations to be sure that it's the best way. It appears that at lvl 80 they look more or less equivalent, but I still think that light armor is better overall.
- I know the heavy built is not standard, as I put more points into mag than usual. Just remember I wanted to compare the damage output. If you use another built (usually more points into str and vit), just consider that the damage is lower and HP/Pdef higher, then draw your own conclusions.
- I could have checked at a higher level, like 100 or 120, but considering my own level I didn't find it very useful. Maybe the tendancy of heavy built to be better when the level increases makes it better for end-game. I'll care when i'm lvl 80+, in a thousand years. Still, if you really want it, I can do it.
- I am currently level 16, which is very low. But I had a fox form venom on another version (MY-EN) which was around lvl 40. I know it's still low, but i have a little experience so it's not theretical only, and it's not a reason for not doing maths !
- Always remember that it's a game. You can choose any build you want. As you'll play countless hours with your character, just make one you like to play with, or you'll get bored very soon. Same applies for the pet, feel free to choose another pet than the big fat roc magmite, though I agree that it's the best free tank ingame (but not the best dps).
All constructive comments or remarks are welcome. (Non constructive but positive remarks are exceptionnally allowed) English is not my mother tongue, so feel free to check language errors.
Conclusion
Well, you know how to play, you know your style better than me, now you have the numbers. It's for you to decide what to choose, use the brain Mother Nature gave you !
b:laugh
I was guessing that light was a bit better for damage, as you have a better weapon, but to be sure I decided to look at a simulator and do some maths (not really complicated, sums and multiplications). I used the simulator for the char and the skills at http://www.ecatomb.net/character.php and http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php.
So I tried to compare the stats at lvl 40 and at lvl 80.
Builds
I looked for the builds to deal a maximum damage :
Light:
vit 5
str lvl+6
mag 3*lvl
dex lvl+4
Heavy:
vit 5
str min for last armor
mag remaining points for highest possible magical weapon
dex min for last armor
(I tried to put all points in str and none in mag, but the damage was dramatically lower, something like the half)
Stuff
I used npc stuff only, with 1 star, as the simulator does not enables more stars or additionnal stats. I put the whole armor, with Patk rings.
The weapon was the highest possible in each case.
Skills
I supposed the fox form was highest possible for the level, and Melee mastery also.
Every active skill use the base physical damage, so the weapon has no specific effet for a particular skill. Melee mastery only is concerned by the weapon.
Level 40
Light:
Human total Patk: 275-337
(Weapon Jewel Quoit lvl39 : 132-179)
Melee Mastery (+70% weap) : 92.4-125.3
Total Fox Form : 367.4-502.3
Crit : 3%
Heal : 210 + (519-750)*18% = 303-345
Heavy:
Human total Patk: 261-327
(Weapon Magic sword lvl24 : 77-116)
Melee Mastery (+70% weap) : 53.9-81.2
Total Fox Form : 319.9-408.2
Crit : 2%
Heal : 210 + (301-358)*18% = 264-274
Here we see that Light wins: more damage, more crit, more heal (more survivability), more mana, more mana regen, more Mdef. But of course less Pdef.
If you have a better weapon, it increases the advantage of the light armor due to Melee Mastery. But if you have better armor/rings, str acts as a multiplier for the damage so heavy will have a greater increase. But considering the gap between the two of them, Light is better.
Level 80
Light:
Human total Patk: 718-876
(Weapon Jewel Quoit lvl79 : 287-388)
Melee Mastery (+120% weap) : 344.4-465.6
Total Fox Form : 1062.4-1341.6
Crit : 5%
Heal : 430 + (1730-2512)*26% = 880-1083
Pdef (fox) : 4061.2
Mdef : 2657
HP : 2086 (Heavy casque lvl51)
MP : 4776 - 20% = 3821
Heavy:
Human total Patk: 839-1060
(Weapon Magic sword lvl54 : 188-282)
Melee Mastery (+120% weap) : 225.6-338.4
Total Fox Form : 1064.6-1398.4
Crit : 3%
Heal : 430 + (1028-1226)*24% = 697-749
Pdef (fox) : 9508.4
Mdef : 1630
HP : 2136 (Heavy casque lvl71)
MP : 3864 - 20% = 3091
Here you can see that heavy has slightly more damage than light, a bit more HP, and insane Pdef.
But light still has 2%crit more, more heal, more mana and mana regen and more Mdef.
The same remarks applies as before:
If you have a better weapon, it increases the advantage of the light armor due to Melee Mastery. But if you have better armor/rings, str acts as a multiplier for the damage so heavy will have a greater increase.
Remarks
- I know that my point of view is slightly biased, as I began my WF using light armor. I started these computations to be sure that it's the best way. It appears that at lvl 80 they look more or less equivalent, but I still think that light armor is better overall.
- I know the heavy built is not standard, as I put more points into mag than usual. Just remember I wanted to compare the damage output. If you use another built (usually more points into str and vit), just consider that the damage is lower and HP/Pdef higher, then draw your own conclusions.
- I could have checked at a higher level, like 100 or 120, but considering my own level I didn't find it very useful. Maybe the tendancy of heavy built to be better when the level increases makes it better for end-game. I'll care when i'm lvl 80+, in a thousand years. Still, if you really want it, I can do it.
- I am currently level 16, which is very low. But I had a fox form venom on another version (MY-EN) which was around lvl 40. I know it's still low, but i have a little experience so it's not theretical only, and it's not a reason for not doing maths !
- Always remember that it's a game. You can choose any build you want. As you'll play countless hours with your character, just make one you like to play with, or you'll get bored very soon. Same applies for the pet, feel free to choose another pet than the big fat roc magmite, though I agree that it's the best free tank ingame (but not the best dps).
All constructive comments or remarks are welcome. (Non constructive but positive remarks are exceptionnally allowed) English is not my mother tongue, so feel free to check language errors.
Conclusion
Well, you know how to play, you know your style better than me, now you have the numbers. It's for you to decide what to choose, use the brain Mother Nature gave you !
b:laugh
Post edited by Succubae - Dreamweaver on
0
Comments
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Use this: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/
It lets you customize equips.
And fyi, Heavy build is pointless if you can't use best magic weapon for level. So get stat equips or forget about it.0 -
Thank you for the simulator, I'll check with better equips when I have time. Still, it lacks additionnal stats, but that's only a minor issue.
I can't see how you can have enougth stat points to have both the heavy armor and the best (standard) weapon for level, even with stat equips. If i'm not mistaken you need 76 points more at lvl 80, and the right ones !
I read somewhere that people use lvl 22 golden weapon, and even some go barehanded (which is quite dumb)...0 -
See here:Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »Thank you for the simulator, I'll check with better equips when I have time. Still, it lacks additionnal stats, but that's only a minor issue.
I can't see how you can have enougth stat points to have both the heavy armor and the best (standard) weapon for level, even with stat equips. If i'm not mistaken you need 76 points more at lvl 80, and the right ones !
I read somewhere that people use lvl 22 golden weapon, and even some go barehanded (which is quite dumb)...Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »So here it is, me and my 90 gear and stats. Hehe 3 points to spare. Still working on getting matching TT90 robes. b:pleased
Gears:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7707/geare.jpg
Stats buffed and unbuffed(barb/BM/cleric):
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9504/statshht.jpg
b:pleased
I know using only lvl80 bracers.. but if I had the TT90 cape could easily wear anything. Basically just saying it IS possible to wear same level weapon/HA, just takes a lot of work.
The people who use low level magic weapons, generally pump STR(for more melee damage) and use low level weapons.Which I've heard actually ends up doing more melee damage then using the best weapon, since there is less points wasted on mag. Never calculated it out though, dont really care for melee damage, I still use spells as HA.0 -
Woot, I never ever dreamed about such gear! How long did you farm these?
I explained that I tried to pump str and leave mag at 5, but it ended by doing less damage, I think because of the Melee Mastery which is based on weapon damage. I'll eventually make the computation.
Of course I'm only speaking about fox form, and looking for greater damage while not being squishy.
Maybe I don't realize well what's up end game. I did the computation to avoid restating later ;-)0 -
Interesting thread.
You point out that light armor has better magic defense than heavy armor. This is definitely true.
But a heavy armor fox has enough magic to mix and match heavy and arcane armor. With the right mix of heavy and arcane, you can get better pdef and mdef than light armor alone. I'll try to come up with an example later, or you can try it out yourself if you want.
Furthermore, since a heavy fox and wear both arcane and heavy armor, they can gear-up with heavy against physical opponents or arcane against magic opponents. I personally like the flexibility of the heavy fox.
A quick question of my own on critical hits. Does a 2% critical hit rate mean that 2% of all of your hits are critical? I'm really not sure.
Keep in mind that if the above is true, then a 2% critical hit rate only increases your average damage by 2%, a 5% rate increases your overall damage by 5%, and so on.0 -
Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »A quick question of my own on critical hits. Does a 2% critical hit rate mean that 2% of all of your hits are critical? I'm really not sure.
Keep in mind that if the above is true, then a 2% critical hit rate only increases your average damage by 2%, a 5% rate increases your overall damage by 5%, and so on.
On magical attacks: each spell cast that does damage, heals your pet, OR reflects damage has a chance to critical based on the characters critical %. Example, if I have a 2% critical hit, then each spell has the same chance to get a critical hit. Since spells don't miss, the total number of critical hits *should* end up being about 2% of your total spells cast, and yes, Bramble Guard can critical.
On melee attacks, each attack should be on a one roll system where the roll determines if the attack was a miss/hit/critical hit. For example, if the character had a critical hit of 2%, then about 2% of all total attacks (misses included) *should* be critical hits. (I have been unable to actually verify that it is a one roll system, but my guess is that it is.)
So, each spell attack/melee attack ends up having the exact same chance to get a critical hit, and, with a large enough number of spells cast/melee attacks made, the total number of critical hits should be about the same percentage of total attacks/spells cast as the critical hit % per attack.
It's all probability though, so you could get 10 straight critical hits in a row, or nothing for 200.
Something to note about getting a 2% critical hit: that only is true if and only if you aren't getting that from a 20 pt dex increase meaning if you have lower magic than a mage build, the mage build will out-DPS you anyway even with a higher chance to get a critical hit, but if the two builds are the same stat-wise, then you'd actually only see a 1% increase because everyone has a base 1% chance to get a critical hit.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »But a heavy armor fox has enough magic to mix and match heavy and arcane armor. With the right mix of heavy and arcane, you can get better pdef and mdef than light armor alone. I'll try to come up with an example later, or you can try it out yourself if you want.
I've seen this before. In ecatomb's calculator, there is only 1 setup that does this: heavy top, everything else arcane. That assumes that the veno is using the highest grade available for that level. Any other combination of grade or heavy/arcane mix resulted in either one being higher, but not both. o.o
To be honest, the amount of extra resists isn't all that noteworthy. It's a nice footnote, but not really a compelling reason to use a Heavy/Arcane mix. o.o
One of the things I've noticed about Heavy setups is that they seem to be compromise setups. They can get some powerful results, but another aspect of their character has to be reduced to allow it. For example "insane pdef" while having to wear a weaker weapon. o.oSuccubae - Dreamweaver wrote:All constructive comments or remarks are welcome.
Even Reikara's and Obsessed's setups are like this. While they definitely have some impressive results, it requires a considerable amount of +stat gear and respecting that may not be available or affordable to a given person. It can also prevent a veno from using gear he/she wants to use since there may not be room for it and the +stat gear at the same time. o.o
Light setups don't have to deal with those issues. It's only downside is that it's "good" but not "Great" at any one thing. Well, except accuracy and crit rate. o.o0 -
Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »Even Reikara's and Obsessed's setups are like this. While they definitely have some impressive results, it requires a considerable amount of +stat gear and respecting that may not be available or affordable to a given person. It can also prevent a veno from using gear he/she wants to use since there may not be room for it and the +stat gear at the same time. o.o
+stat gear is generally cheaper then -Channeling and +crit, just takes more searching to find it
I used to be LA, before restating, and in all honesty wasnt very impressed. It's mediocrity in everything IS it's downfall. It's not overall powerful(my HA build has the same weapon/matk as LA), it's not overly defensive(taking relatively mean damage from physical and magical sources, instead of high from just one source and nearly impenitrable to the other[though the extra HP makes up for taking more dmg IMO]) it was too much in the middle to be anywhat beneficial, imo.
Also, with Heavy and +stat-gear to wear the best weapon, I can mix with robes to have better defenses in both then in LA.
ie)
TT90 HA/Robe mix(Heavy Top+glove)
Pdef: 2433
Mdef: 3125
TT90 LA
Pdef: 1877
Mdef: 2920
The only thing LA has is, crit/accuracy, and can use -channeling gear. Matk/Mdef is a draw(same weapon + both can wear robes), Patk/HP/Pdef goto Heavy.
Sooo Patk/HP/Pdef(Heavy Build) vs. Crit/Channeling/Accuracy(LA Build)
Flexibilty/Suvival vs. Chance
Thats how I see it.
Since the OP sounds like they want a fox veno, Heavy sounds much much more beneficial.
@Succu
End game gear isn't too hard to get if you have a high level party of friends, it's relatively easy.0 -
Ok, I played around with ecatombs.net a bit, and I've come up with the following numbers.
And before I do this, I don't want this so sound like I'm flaming Laranda and her/his opinion on light armor vs. heavy armor. I just respectively disagree with the position, and I'm trying to provide evidence to prove my point.
Also, I love the detail the original poster went through when starting this topic. It made it much easier for me when I went to play around with numbers on ecatombs.net
So I primarily analyzed the heavy level 80 build that's described by the OP. I don't think the original poster mentioned this, but I'm 99% sure she/he equipped physical belts and necklaces. As with the original poster, I only used the best NPC items.
First, wearing a mixture of heavy/arcane:
Armor: arcane
Leggings: heavy
Footwear: heavy
Wristguards: arcane
I got the following defense results:
Pdef (fox): 5733.2
Mdef: 2691
To remind you, the light armor fox described by the original poster had:
Pdef (fox): 4061.2
Mdef: 2657
So the magical defenses are practically the same, while the physical defense of the heavy armor fox is still significantly higher.
But I'll reiterate I think the real power of the heavy/arcane mix is that is can mix and match. Against a purely physical opponent, the heavy fox can wear all heavy armor, and against a magic opponent, all arcane. In short, against every possible opponent, the heavy/arcane fox is going to have more (often significantly more) defense than the light fox.
I'll grant that the critical rate, evasion, and accuracy of the light armor fox will be higher, but in my opinion that doesn't outweigh the defense bonus of the heavy/arcane fox. I also think that it's clear that in a melee duel, the heavy armor fox would destroy the light armor fox. The light armor has slightly more damage, but the physical defense of the heavy armor fox is just too high.
I think I have a better build for the heavy armor fox though. I'll compare this to the aforementioned (original) heavy armor build.
Alternative (Alt) Heavy:
Str: Min for latest heavy armor
Dex: Min for latest heavy armor
Mag: Min for latest arcane armor
Vit: Remaining points (sounds bizarre considering you only get 12 HP per 1 Vit, but I'll be sure to explain my reasoning)
So at level 80, we have:
Str: 202
Dex: 44
Mag: 123
Vit: 46
Alt Heavy:
Human total Patk: 708-818
(Weapon Glaive lvl39 : 132-179)
Melee Mastery (+120% weap) : 158.4 - 214.8
Total Fox Form : 866.4-1032.8
Crit : 3%
Heal : 430 + (582-816)*24% = 570-626
Pdef (fox) : 9895.6
Mdef : 1630
HP : 2628 (Heavy casque lvl71)
MP : 3372 - 20% = 2698
Hard to tell at first that this build is better. Let's have them engage in a simplified duel, and see who wins.
Also many people HATE the idea of equipping such a lower-grade weapon. I understand this concern. Most good, solid builds ask you to equip the latest armor and weapons. I think this is the exception to the rule, and I'm going to try to use hard numbers to prove it.
Rules of the simplified duel:
1) Each fox is only allowed to use normal attacks. No special attacks are to be used.
2) Foxes will attack one another, not each other's pets (which is typically what happens in duels anyways)
3) Foxes will be allowed to use one pet that has an average DPS of 1000 (arbitrary number I chose, feel free to adjust as you see fit in your own calculations).
4) We will ignore HP potions and regenerations
5) We will ignore evasion and accuracy (not a big problem as the original and alternative heavy armor builds have the exact same evasion and accuracy)
Useful formula: How is % damage reduction calculated? As follows:
% reduction = Def/(Def+40*lvl)
So, if you're level 80, and your magic defense is 1630, then:
% reduction = 1630/(1630+40*80) = .337 or 33.7%
I'm not sure how this formula adjusts for attackers and defenders who are of different levels, but it's usually pretty damn close as long the attacker and defender are close in levels.
Using the above formula, we have:
Original Heavy % physical damage Reduction: 74.8%
Alternative Heavy % Physical Damage Reduction: 75.6%
Now, let's find the DPS of each build:
Original Heavy DPS = (839+1060)/2 * (1.25 attacks per second) * (1.03 critical hits) + (1000 Pet DPS) = 2222.5
Alternative Heavy DPS = (708+818)/2 * (1.25 attacks per second) * (1.03 critical hits) + (1000 Pet DPS) = 1982.4
Reduced Original Heavy DPS = 2222.5 * (1 - .756) = 542.29
Reduced Alternative Heavy DPS = 1982.4 * (1 - .748) = 499.6
As a reminder:
Original Heavy HP: 2136
Alternative Heavy HP: 2628
Divide HP by reduced damage to find out which lasts longer:
Original Heavy Veno: Dead after 4.28 seconds
Alternative Heavy Veno: Dead after 4.85 seconds
So the alternative heavy veno outlasts the original heavy veno. Most of the time, the alternative is going to win most of these fights. The original is only going to win when it gets lucky, like if it strings together a series of critical hits.
I simulated several such simplified combats. I won't provide the results here, I'll leave that up to you. But here's a few things I noticed.
1) The advantage is smaller, but if no pets are used, the alternative heavy veno will still win.
2) This is sort of a corollary to point 1, but if a stronger pet is used (i.e. one with more DPS), the alternative heavy veno wins by a larger margin.
3) The veno special attacks offer a flat damage bonus on top of your base physical attack. This is mathematically similar to adding a stronger pet. So when special attacks are factored in, the alternative heavy veno will win by a larger margin.
4) I don't know how the formulas for evasion or accuracy work, so I did not know how to simulate a battle between the light armor melee veno and the heavy armor veno. But it was clear to me that both heavy armor venos would have to miss an insanely unrealistic number of times in order for the light armor veno to win.
There are unfortunately three weaknesses in the alternative heavy build that I have to address.
1) You have a weak pet heal. But since this fox is so hard to kill on account of it's high defense and vitality, you're not nearly as dependent on your pet as other veno builds, and often you'll be tanking for your pet as opposed to the other way around.
2) You have low mana, about 30% lower than the light build.
3) Weak magic attack. Don't even considered using magic attacks with this build. But then again, I'm operating under the assumption that your goal is to create a pure foxform melee veno.
And I'm out of time here. This post was long enough already. I promised to justify adding so many points into vitality, but I'll have to save that for another post.0 -
This is only true at certain levels with certain specific equipment mixes. Once you pass that level and the light build can equip the next best piece of light armor, the HA build is inferior again because the previous combo is no longer the best for the level.Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »You point out that light armor has better magic defense than heavy armor. This is definitely true.
But a heavy armor fox has enough magic to mix and match heavy and arcane armor. With the right mix of heavy and arcane, you can get better pdef and mdef than light armor alone. I'll try to come up with an example later, or you can try it out yourself if you want.
If a bunch of that equipment comes at the same level (as is the case with TT90 gear), then you can create a working build which will last you 10 levels and will outshine light. But as a leveling build HA is tremendously complicated and completely reliant on getting lucky with equipment drops (making it impossible for someone to write a guide on how to do it). In the time you spent trying to figure out the best mix of HA, you could've probably gotten through 10%-20% of the level grinding with the light build.Furthermore, since a heavy fox and wear both arcane and heavy armor, they can gear-up with heavy against physical opponents or arcane against magic opponents. I personally like the flexibility of the heavy fox.
Yeah, that's its strong point IMHO, and why I'm aiming for a HA as an endgame build. But the simple fact remains that heavy requires more non-mag stat points. So by definition any HA build is going to be more complicated to put together and limit your equipment options vs. a straight light build (which can be achieved with no special stat nor equipment bonuses). If you get lucky with drops or spotting things on auction, you can make a better HA build than light build. But there's no guaranteed way to achieve it (AFAIK) with stock, TT, and legendary equipment. By my calculations, Obsessed has +142 in stat bonuses in those screenshots, although only +83 of it is necessary to wear the equipment. Yowzers.
Edit: I'm revising my opinion. +80 of those str, dex, and mag bonuses come from the TT, legendary, and quest equipment. So you only need to make up +31 extra stat points to wear everything Obsessed is wearing. Calculation is as follows:
Equipment requirements are 227 str, 267 mag, and 49 dex.
At lvl 90 you'll have 5*89 + 15 = 460 points in str + mag + dex (assume 5 vit).
227 + 267 + 49 - 460 = 83 points left over
Gold, green, and quest equipment gives +36 dex, +24 mag, +20 str.
83 - 36 - 24 - 20 = 3 points short.
Since you can't use stat bonuses on equipment to equipm themselves, that adds an extra max(str, dex, mag) to the requirement, which is +7, +10, and +11 respectively for a total of 28.
28+3 = +31 stat points short. Obsessed's build is very attainable. If you want to try for it, by 90 you should set the following stat goals:
214 str
23 dex
254 mag
(include at least 31 stat points from other equipment to attain the above)0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Equipment requirements are 227 str, 267 mag, and 49 dex.
At lvl 90 you'll have 5*89 + 15 = 460 points in str + mag + dex (assume 5 vit).
227 + 267 + 49 - 460 = 83 points left over
Gold, green, and quest equipment gives +36 dex, +24 mag, +20 str.
83 - 36 - 24 - 20 = 3 points that need to be made up in other equipment.
Obsessed's build is very attainable. If you want to try for it, by 90 you should set the following stat goals:
207 str
13 dex
243 mag
(deduct 3 points somewhere from the three)
I dont know if you factored it in but, remember you cant use equipments stat bonuses to wear themselves. So cant use the Weapons +mag, and you can only use 5 dex on the glove(difference between 49 and 44, armor dex require), and you cant count the +dex from the leggings.
Though none of what I use is overall hard to get, take a bit of farming and daily checks of auction house, but isnt any more expensive then a "traditional" build either.
And though I'm using 3star helmet and necklace there are legendary equivlents(also the weapon can get 1 more dex on it x.x) lvl59 legend arcane helmet +8~10 stats, and a lot of +8 stat legendary necklaces. Also if you can get your hands on a TT90 cape(+9 str+dex+mag) it makes it incredibly easier.(though it takes 2x 10mil gold mats... lol)0 -
Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »This is only true at certain levels with certain specific equipment mixes. Once you pass that level and the light build can equip the next best piece of light armor, the HA build is inferior again because the previous combo is no longer the best for the level.
This doesn't sound right to me. I'm not sure I believe it's true -- yet.
At least from playing around on ecatombs.net, it seems pretty easy to quickly find the right mix. It's just arithmatic, right?
Is there any way you could provide a more concrete example of the situation to which you are referring?0 -
Did not know that. Still, the extra required stats are just max(str, dex, mag) on the armor and weapons. That looks like... 11+10+7 = 28. So you'll need 28+3 = +31 in stat bonuses. That's still pretty easily attainable IMHO. I'll note the correction in the original post.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »I dont know if you factored it in but, remember you cant use equipments stat bonuses to wear themselves. So cant use the Weapons +mag, and you can only use 5 dex on the glove(difference between 49 and 44, armor dex require), and you cant count the +dex from the leggings.
I was referring to using HA as a leveling build. The TT armors at 70, 80, and 90 all become usable at the same level, so it's easy to find a good mix with them that will last you 10 levels. But at levels lower than 70, there are 16 possible HA armor mixes (all heavy, 4 combos of 1 heavy/3 arcane, 6 combos of 2 heavy/2 arcane, 4 combos of 3 heavy/1 arcane, all arcane). Every level that a new armor piece becomes available, every time you get better armor as a drop, every time you consider a new armor piece you see up for auction, you have to calculate all 16 combos again.Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »This doesn't sound right to me. I'm not sure I believe it's true -- yet. At least from playing around on ecatombs.net, it seems pretty easy to quickly find the right mix. It's just arithmatic, right?
Is there any way you could provide a more concrete example of the situation to which you are referring?
I ran a (admittedly non-exhaustive) search for likely combos over 10 levels (4 armor changes) a few months ago, using the assumption that you were keeping magic high enough to use the best weapon for your level. In most of the combos HA had better pdef but worse mdef, or vice versa. Some it was worse than light in both pdef and mdef. I think there was one combo where HA was better than light in both, but lost that advantage when you leveled to where the next armor piece became available.0 -
Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »1) Each fox is only allowed to use normal attacks. No special attacks are to be used.
And this is the flaw in your reasoning. A normal HF using a higher level magical weapon will outdamage the other one with using skills.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Brit for the sig b:laugh0 -
First of all, thank you people for answering, it's helping me having clear ideas.Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »You point out that light armor has better magic defense than heavy armor. This is definitely true.
But a heavy armor fox has enough magic to mix and match heavy and arcane armor. With the right mix of heavy and arcane, you can get better pdef and mdef than light armor alone. I'll try to come up with an example later, or you can try it out yourself if you want.
Furthermore, since a heavy fox and wear both arcane and heavy armor, they can gear-up with heavy against physical opponents or arcane against magic opponents. I personally like the flexibility of the heavy fox.
Didn't thought about mixing heavy and arcane, because I believed that you didn't have enough points for that. But it works, though for me the biggest downside of wearing a heavy is the lower dps (at least at lvl 40), so it doesn't change my computations.
about the flexibility, I totally agree, BUT: in fox form you can't change armor, so you have to switch to human form each time. Not a big deal, but boring and dangerous if there are both magical an physical mobs in the area.
Scientists are lazy ;-)
Not true, it depends on how much critical hits increases the damage. It is true only if a critical hit is twice a normal hit.Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »Keep in mind that if the above is true, then a 2% critical hit rate only increases your average damage by 2%, a 5% rate increases your overall damage by 5%, and so on.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »+stat gear is generally cheaper then -Channeling and +crit, just takes more searching to find it
I used to be LA, before restating, and in all honesty wasnt very impressed. It's mediocrity in everything IS it's downfall. It's not overall powerful(my HA build has the same weapon/matk as LA), it's not overly defensive(taking relatively mean damage from physical and magical sources, instead of high from just one source and nearly impenitrable to the other[though the extra HP makes up for taking more dmg IMO]) it was too much in the middle to be anywhat beneficial, imo.
Also, with Heavy and +stat-gear to wear the best weapon, I can mix with robes to have better defenses in both then in LA.
ie)
TT90 HA/Robe mix(Heavy Top+glove)
Pdef: 2433
Mdef: 3125
TT90 LA
Pdef: 1877
Mdef: 2920
The only thing LA has is, crit/accuracy, and can use -channeling gear. Matk/Mdef is a draw(same weapon + both can wear robes), Patk/HP/Pdef goto Heavy.
Sooo Patk/HP/Pdef(Heavy Build) vs. Crit/Channeling/Accuracy(LA Build)
Flexibilty/Suvival vs. Chance
Thats how I see it.
Since the OP sounds like they want a fox veno, Heavy sounds much much more beneficial.
I'm more than sounding like I want a fox veno: it's in the title of the thread.
Remember that fox form increases Pdef (60/90/120%), so LA is not that squishy.
Where do you get the extra HP? From the Helmet? The difference isn't that great.
Having better accuracy lowers the effect of the chance, as you'll have less chance to miss. Of course I agree fot the crit.Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »End game gear isn't too hard to get if you have a high level party of friends, it's relatively easy.
As you point it: if you have such friends. As I'm more interested in doing fun thing rather than farming stuff (you can't even see the glow in fox form), I perfer aiming for something I can easily have. But that's very personnal.
Yes, I used physical belts and necklaces.Baritomaris - Sanctuary wrote: »So I primarily analyzed the heavy level 80 build that's described by the OP. I don't think the original poster mentioned this, but I'm 99% sure she/he equipped physical belts and necklaces. As with the original poster, I only used the best NPC items.
I won't quote the end of your thread, it's too detailed.
I should have mentionned that I wanted to do PVE rather than PVP, that's why I didn't considered vit. But is sounds quite logical that having such a greater physical defense and more HP, the heavy fox beats the light one, when dealing with physical damage. With your post, we know that the greater physical damage of the lignt fox doens't overcomes the heavy amor.
Maybe the light fox could beat the heavy fox using magic in human form? (speaking of a "real" duel)
Not true, because fox skills add a fixed damage the the base physical damage. on the contrary, proportionally it adds more damage to the heavy fox.Blancheneige - Heavens Tear wrote: »And this is the flaw in your reasoning. A normal HF using a higher level magical weapon will outdamage the other one with using skills.
Remark: I intend to use the same build for grinding and end-game (I may change my mind later, I'll see). So I can't afford farming gear, I'll wear what I find. That's why I considered only the npc stuff. Of course I hope to drop better ones! I'm looking for more str/Patk, as I have my pet for a tank.
This reminds ma something about pets: I don't mind to tank and have a high-dps pet, but in this case he takes aggro anyway. That's too bad.0 -
HP --->
From refinements.
Farming --->
If you ever get that high you will have such friends, and you will farm the best gear, heavent seen anyone 90+ without TT/legendarys. Even if you dont farm, you'll gain money from grinding and be able to buy the items from Auction house. You wont get to 90+ in npc gear... it take's time and dedication, truely if you make it that far you will want the best gear.0 -
Blancheneige - Heavens Tear wrote: »And this is the flaw in your reasoning. A normal HF using a higher level magical weapon will outdamage the other one with using skills.
I address this elsewhere in the thread, but a normal HF using a higher level magical weapon only gets a flat bonus from using skills. It's my third point at the end regarding what I noticed about other calculations.
For example, regardless of the weapon used, level 10 befuddling mist offers a flat damage increase of 1396.6. It is not dependent on the level of weapon used.
If you work out the math, you'll see that in this type of duel, the alternative heavy fox actually benefits if we factor in special attacks. I thought this would be to distracting for my post, but I invite you to do the calculations yourself.
ETA: And I just read Succubae's post.Maybe the light fox could beat the heavy fox using magic in human form? (speaking of a "real" duel)
A good point. It's entirely possible that a light veno in human form might be able to defeat this build. Hard to say who would win without actually trying it out. 0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »I dont know if you factored it in but, remember you cant use equipments stat bonuses to wear themselves.
But you can restat after you equip your gear. So, for example, you could restat once and get really high strength, equip your armor and then restat again and get rid of strength you no longer need.
But this would cost you several hundred thousand coins every time you unequip and re-equip your gear.0 -
Thats wrong, it doesnt work like that. It turns the equipement red, they will be in the slot and equipped but not actually defend you.Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »But you can restat after you equip your gear. So, for example, you could restat once and get really high strength, equip your armor and then restat again and get rid of strength you no longer need.
But this would cost you several hundred thousand coins every time you unequip and re-equip your gear.0 -
Then LA and HA have the same amount of HP...Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »HP --->
From refinements.
Anyway, I will do the comarison using the simulator from http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ with better gear.0 -
I've been doing some calculations cause Im planning to do a switch for heavey armor at lvl 65.. Been collecting right armor (-req and +stats on acc). Unfortunately cannot calculate with the simulator what my phy. def, etc will be cause it doesnt take in account -req/+stats (I did a calculation with lower lvl armor though).. Anyway, at lvl 65 I will be able to war full lvl 8 heavy armor (except boots since they are lvl 66) and still use my TT60 weap (180 INT req)..
I'd be having somewhat of
Int 185
Str 140(+)
Dex 31
After that pump my INT to be able to use the lvl TT70-weap or mold weap at lvl 70.
Yes, I play light.. How would it look like if I didnt switch? basically same weap and full lvl 8 light gear. Now difference is that my p.def will go up a lot, mag def go down, accuracy, crit and eva.. But I didnt nerf down any of my gear for now.. So for me it works.. About HP.. As light I only have base +5 VIT. All my hp comes from shards. As heavy build I get to use the helmet + shards, so my hp shouldnt be lower than LA.
Further.. This how I see it.. Either u can chose to go high mdef/low pdef (arcane), high pdef/low mdef (heavy). Light should be somewhere in the middle.. Sure I live longer than arcane, but generally I found this is not how I want to play my char, pdef/mdef is too mediocre. So now I'd have to chose from high mdef or high pdef. Im not gonna go into reason why I chose the 2nd, but point is it's either A or B and whatever u chose u will lack in the other (arcane lacks pdef, heavy lacks mdef). And since I already play light and feel okay with my mag atk. so switching to heavy wont affect it much.. Theres not a huge loss for me at least to switch from light to heavy.*Semi retired*0 -
Ladydeadlock - Heavens Tear wrote: »This how I see it.. Either u can chose to go high mdef/low pdef (arcane), high pdef/low mdef (heavy). Light should be somewhere in the middle.. Sure I live longer than arcane, but generally I found this is not how I want to play my char, pdef/mdef is too mediocre. So now I'd have to chose from high mdef or high pdef. Im not gonna go into reason why I chose the 2nd, but point is it's either A or B and whatever u chose u will lack in the other (arcane lacks pdef, heavy lacks mdef). And since I already play light and feel okay with my mag atk. so switching to heavy wont affect it much.. Theres not a huge loss for me at least to switch from light to heavy.
The nice thing about Heavy build is that you can have your cake and eat it, too.
When you want the P.Def you can wear your heavy set.
When you want the M.Def, since you still have the MAG needed for your weapon, you can switch to full Arcane if you like. You'll just have lower damage output than a proper Arcane build.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Heavy adds more hp/per refinement then any other armor type.Succubae - Dreamweaver wrote: »Then LA and HA have the same amount of HP...
Anyway, I will do the comarison using the simulator from http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/ with better gear.
obviously robe adds the least, LA in the middle, and Heavy the most. Heres an example of a higher upgraded robe vs heavy.. lol. Both are TT90. Trying to find a LA example, obviously it would be somewhere inbetween x.x. Though I will agree that refinements dont really matter until your endgame gear, so for sake of comparison it might be negligable.
+4 robe --> 107hp
+4 Heavy --> 172hp0 -
Not sure which set of data is incorrect, but PWDB shows the three armour sets as having the same bonus to HP through refining. Of course, I've never refined Arcane/Light/Heavy armour at the same time myself in order to verify these values are correct.
TT70
Arcane | Light | Heavy
TT90
Arcane | Light | Heavy
These values are apparently incorrect. Don't use these.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
lol all of it is wrong, and btw your TT90 links dont match up(you have lvl 70robe in TT90 robe, and lvl90robe in the Light armor slot) and... I'm going by ingame values... not some site, I'm staring at them right now. >.>Peritia - Lost City wrote: »Not sure which set of data is incorrect, but PWDB shows the three armour sets as having the same bonus to HP through refining. Of course, I've never refined Arcane/Light/Heavy armour at the same time myself in order to verify these values are correct.
TT70
Arcane | Light | Heavy
TT90
Arcane | Light | Heavy
PWDatabase fails.0 -
Obsessed - Heavens Tear wrote: »lol all of it is wrong, and btw your links dont match up. I'm going by ingame values... not some site, I'm staring at them right now. >.>
Was just fixing the links, lol.
Sorry if it came off as doubt. I just saw that the Russian site and PWDB disagreed as to the refining values, and I personally near always use PWDB. Now I know better than to use their values for refining.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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