We need Democracy

Granrey - Sanctuary · March 2009

XPapewaiox - Lost City wrote: »

Aw, another self-important person from a tea party server demanding everything be done their way.

The only way your little petition would work is with a dictatorial interpretation of the ToS, or it would become a popularity contest (where-as now it is a contest of strength, much better in a MMO)

This would erely increase corruption and unfair behavior. Get over the fact that other people have the same quests you do. There is NOTHING int he TOS that states they have to wait in line to do their quests. Try to grow up, or move to a PK server where cooperation is enforced, and not required.

Please, read from GM posts:
"GM's do not enforce the rules based on levels of whining.

There's a difference between taking a penny out of the tip jar, and robbing the register.

There's a difference between KSing (Kill Stealing) a spawn once, and camping a spawn for hours in order to ensure that no one else can finish their quests.

The bottom line is that much truth has been spoken in this thread. Even after Jolly Old Jones is but a long forgotten memory months down the line, Oracle Books will still be around, as will the bosses said books request you to kill."

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=224231&page=6

"There is a difference between KSing one or two mobs, and camping the spawn for hours on end while PKing anyone you see fit. Our GMs never issue bans on a whim. If you got a ban, chances are there are concrete reasons behind it."
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=223741

I'll suggest to read both treads completely to get the context.

Chocooo - Lost City · March 2009

Yawn...
If the next event puts a timer on oracle books in such a way their exp degrades over time, I'll sign your silly little petition.

At your level, your oracles are better off sold for coin.
Invest a little for the higher levels, and stop wasting your time on mobs you'll never get a stab at.

Reality, my friend, is that those who can kill these bosses faster than you are going to kill it before you. Patience really can benefit you.

I'm holding like... idk, 160 oracles I think?
I don't plan on doing them until a month or two from now.
They won't disappear on me anyways.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Defected - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I signed it.

I despise what you do in the game. But that was really funny. b:laugh

MissEbil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But why should I be actively IGNORED or PUNISHED for not spending so much money?
Answer: Because F2P Games are NOT what they say on the tin.

Try reversing the situation, to help you see it from PWE's perspective. Let's say you learn to play this game really well, enough so that lots of people ask you for advice. You get literally thousands of emails every day asking you questions on how to play the game. You don't have enough time to answer them all. In addition to playing the game, you have to work to earn money to pay the rent, utilities, groceries, etc.

Now say some of these people asking you questions offer to pay you money if you will answer theirs first. Whose questions are you going to give priority in answering? What if enough people offered you money that you could quit your day job and spend all your time just playing the game and answering the paid questions? That's a fundamental free-market force at work there. The more value people assign to their questions, the more willing they are to pay money for an answer.

So if you answered the non-paying questions, you'd find a lot of them are simple questions the asker probably could've answered themselves with a little searching on the forums or on google. But because they didn't value the answer highly, they didn't feel it was worth their effort to search. Instead they asked you hoping to mooch off your time and effort. OTOH, the questions from the folks offering to pay would be good questions. They probably already searched for an answer and couldn't find it, and are only resorting to paying you to answer it because they value the answer highly.

So if you're not willing to spend much money on this game, then you must value it less than the person who is spending a lot of money. A few bad experiences and you're likely to quit to go play another game. Someone spending a lot of money on this game must really like it, and is more likely to continue playing even if he encounters big problems. So just like you value the game less than the other player, PWE is going to value you less as a customer. They may not say it, and they may uphold a minimum level of service which they offer everyone regardless of how much they pay. But if they had to choose between you quitting or the cash shopper quitting, they would much rather see you go.

If it's democracy (socialism actually) you want, you need to play a MMORPG with a monthly fee. Everyone pays the same amount, everyone has the same priority with the company. Or you could play a completely free game, where everyone also has the same priority (no priority). A free-to-play game with a cash shop is more subject to free-market forces - priority will be given to whatever helps the employees keep food on their plates.

Personally I picked this game because I play in spurts. I'll play a lot for a few months, then not play for half a year. The monthly fee model doesn't work well for me - it seems like a waste to be paying when I wouldn't be playing most months. The game has been enjoyable enough that I have no problems with spending a good chunk of my annual gaming budget on their cash shop. (Problem being I've actually found it easier and more fun to make coin in the game to exchange for gold, than pay $$ for it. Oh well, at least I'm helping to drive their gold sales.)

Tearvalerin - Sanctuary · March 2009

You can complain all you want and "think" your complaints arent being heard, lol. But KSing as you whine about isnt a violation of the TOS. You cant ban someone who has the discourtesy of breaking social values, but I cant blame them. F*** society! If you dont like a faction, make a better one to stomp them, get off the server, or shut up.

I deal daily with a jerk off faction on Sanct, a group of egos who think theyre better than everyone else, who just magically popped on the map with TT 90 gears out of no where. They KS me, and talk like theyre superior to me, and behave like animals.

What do I do?

Ive decided to try joining the local faction giants to smash their f***ing heads in. Itll feel pretty good once the deed is done, and ya know it go alot more done than sitting on a forum whining.

doremi12 · March 2009

Calibix - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm not saying that low levels are unimportant. The point is if I'm lvl 9x and want to do an oracle, I'm gonna do it and not wait in line. And its not ks'n. I have as much right to the mob as you.

When did a GM agree that lower levels are worth less than the higher levels? We all use the same cash shop.

The 80+'s have put in significantly more time and effort.

MMO's are unfair to the lower level characters. EVERY MMO. Its a fact of the game system, get used to it.

If there isn't anyone on the mob when you start killing. Than it is fair but when someone is on it but you kill it and take credit than it is KSing. It not a matter of level.

MissEbil - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Firstly, I am not a "low" level. Look <<<
I can kill any of the oracle bosses in under 30 seconds, yet that seems like too long for some people, and they'd sooner do 90 of theirs (thus taking a lot more time over it) than let me do mine and be on my way.
When I first turned up at the Wicked Pirate yesterday, there was ONE other person, and he said he had 3000 oracles, but he still agreed to take turns.
Secondly, I am not QQing I am b:angry ing because the GMs do NOT have a rule about this, or rather they do, when it suits them.
I am sorry if I am not willing to pay my rent and bill money to PWI, but I want to live a life of more than PWI and TV dinners.
I play a PvE server, dumbasses, therefore I do not want to go PK and "sort it out" and if I did against a 90+ wizard? I'd be better just dropping all my hard earned gear on the floor, it'd be quicker.

KSers, ask yourself this:
Is your mother proud of you. Cos I bet she's never said so.

EDIT: To whomever posted that poetical, yet oh so woefully misspelt piece of profanity on my petition, as yourself who REALLY is the childish one? I bet you couldn't even do what you threatened.

Calibix - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Daialura - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This whole situation is so odd...
On the one hand, you have people wanting to hold other players to their own social ideal (waiting in line)...
On the other hand, you have people wanting to hold other players to their own social ideal (not waiting in line)...

So how do you resolve what seems inevitably to be an unending debate between diametrically opposite perspectives?

I can see the QQ responses coming down the street. That's really too easy a response though and doesn't serve to get at the root of the issue which is: Right now, both sides are right.

Both sides are right because of the following:
1. The game's rules don't deal with the subject specifically enough which leaves it open to interpretation.
2. Enforcement of griefing instances has been erratic since determining who has oracles and who doesn't isn't possible for non-GMs
3. The game system doesn't lock out the mob from those players who don't have the quest item.

So with no rule, and no system of enforcement, and no system of prevention, how can either side say the other is incorrect?

Really though, PWI isn't a nation with a government ruling by the voice of the people, it's a private enterprise whos rules and regulations are decided solely at the discretion of PWI...

Additionally, morality is relative to the culture we're brought up in. Not everyone shares the same beliefs or sensibilities. That someone doesn't find any issue cutting in line may not mean they're missing a conscience, but perhaps just that theirs is operating under a different set of rules.

From my perspective, to the people complaining that others are ripping on their faction, well that's a legitimate argument since many in that faction have been very helpful to me and to others I've seen. The actions of a few anything doesn't create a rule for the rest of them.

However, you must realize that the appearance of endorsement of those actions will inevitably engender these kinds of feelings toward the whole group especially since most of the ones who feel they're being unfairly treated aren't able to retaliate in any effective manner in game. They ONLY have this forum for rebuttal.

For those complaining that you shouldn't have to wait in line with the rest to get the boss. Yes you have just as much right to the mob but well... It's rude. As rude as someone cutting in line at the theater or cutting someone off on the freeway. You wouldn't want to be in line at the salad bar and have someone swoop in and steal the bowl of mushrooms just as you were going to get some, would you? The one doing it would likely get kicked out of the restaurant (Or banned as it were).

For those complaining that people are KSing oracle bosses over and over, well you're right, it's rude. But until PWI officially makes it against the rules, they're free to do so. Just like someone taking any action that isn't a crime in a private business... The business owners get to decide whether to throw them out or allow it to continue. From the back and forth nature of the penalties, I'd say that PWI really hasn't made up their minds about what they think about it.

So... The people in game can say QQing in game and the people bashing them on the forum because of it can say QQing on the forum but it really doesn't help anybody by doing that.

Until PWI decides how to view the action, make a rule about it, and set up systems of enforcement, the anarchy will continue.

In the mean time, I'm steering clear of the oracle bosses and focusing on CS, WQ, DQ, normal quests, EXP scroll grinding and the myriad other fun in-game features of PWI.

,( ^_^)/

I'll start by saying that was a very good post.

Have you ever seen a game where anyone ever formed a line to kill a boss? No, you haven't. Its not like you can call camps like in the old days of MMO's, when community actually existed, people had curtiousy (KEI at zone in, donations not required

). Wow, lets face it, this is the new generation of MMO's that is populated by a larger and larger portion of a younger and younger audience. Unfortunately, many younger player have never experienced MMO's when they were in their youth and in their prime. They simply have no idea how smoothly things can go without flaming, QQ'n, blah blah blah. Don't get me wrong, I've been in some extremely prominent guilds in other games, and I like my e-bragging rights as the next guy, but people simply didn't act like this in othe games. They knew better.

That being said. I'm simply not gonna put up with the pure ridicoulousness of it all. I'm not going to wait in line behind a bunch of people who never experienced truly good community and curtiousy, and are simply occupied with the mindset of me me me. I hate to say it, but I'm unfortunately in a position where I have to do things I wouldn't normally do to simply remain competive in this game. Some may say that's selfish, but why play a game if not to win? I will not waste my precious time in an effort to appease the, imo, many people who unfortunately probably feel similiar to me who are vocal for the sake of a larger portion of the gaming population who disrupt gameplay and annoy people more than I do for "cutting in line".

Lets all line up for the next contested mob shall we? No. You get there and you kill it before anyone else does.

My 2cp.

WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary · March 2009

MissEbil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

KSers, ask yourself this:
Is your mother proud of you. Cos I bet she's never said so.

Many years ago I once had an emotional breakdown in front of my mother because of something that somebody did to me in a video game. My mother didn't try to console me, she tried to snap me out of it.

I wouldn't listen, because she just didn't understand how much time and effort I'd put into the game, only to have it all ruined because of somebody else's actions. It took me a long time, maybe two weeks or so, but in the end I suddenly realized she was absolutely right and saw that my priorities were all messed up.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't argue with you on this issue. You've made it abundantly clear that for you, this isn't just a video game we're playing, it's a morality play. The stakes are high, and we are but the play-pieces of angels and demons. I bet your mother must be very proud. But unfortunately, my mom would just tell me to snap out of it.

RainbowVidel - Sanctuary · March 2009

[looks at MissEbil's posts]

Do you always take video games so freakin seriously? That's all it is... a game. Lighten up. Besides, it's not like you are required to do oracle quests. They are completely OPTIONAL. KS'ing is not against the rules and no amount of complaining or petitioning will ever change that.

Period.

Tatuaje - Lost City · March 2009

There sure is lots of talk about this Oracle business.

There was one point that sorta said it straight and simple.

If they have Oracles then they are killing for a purpose. Once they run out and kill for $h!ts and giggles than I can see that being annoying.

KS sucks at times but it is part of MMO's.

For everyone who has so much complaining (which is your right to I might add), perhaps you all should instead since there are tonnes of you, rank together and start a new game and run it. I am sure there is enough of you that have specialities and can find a money financier who will back you up with some starting cash. Because you all really want to make the perfect game and feel you can.

These games are no small cracker to organize and run and in life you will never please everyone.

On a side note. If there is so many problems with this so called "Villianous" Guild there must be an opposite guild that perhaps can be pursuaded to step up and balance these issues. If the "villians" are hindering peoples play there must be some "hereos" out there that can step up.

Chalkara - Lost City · March 2009

if you have a problem with ppl not waiting in line move to a server where you can do somthing about it, making a post about how much of a pain in the **** it is....its a game, get over it, lifes not fair...complaining about it isnt going to solve anything...hence why the pk servers are better, if someone is annoying you, make them go away

XPapewaiox - Lost City · March 2009

MissEbil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Firstly, I am not a "low" level

Um... hate to break it to you, but you're a lowbie at 6x lol. Eben 7x is barely decent when there are 1xx running around.

MissEbil - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I am sorry if I am not willing to pay my rent and bill money to PWI, but I want to live a life of more than PWI and TV dinners.

Oh, so you got all your oracles for free? Or did you pay the SAME PRICE as the other guy who bought them? So why should you be forced to take turns when there is no incentive to do so? You chose to play in tea party land where there is no PvP. Therefore, you chose to live with KS'ers. If you play in something much more like reality (PvP) you'd see a LOT less of this.

You yourself said you didn't want tp be on a PvP server, now deal with the consequences of your decision and stop this mindless qq.

Agravain - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Actually the GMs have taken our grievances into consideration against that *cough* unnamed guild. During their most recent Oracle fiasco the GMs randomly teleported many ksers. Since they weren't doing anything technically in violation of rules this was a VERY strong action. It ticked off a few, made most of us chuckle, and restored my confidence that the GMs took player dissatisfaction very serious. Way to go GMs! Thanks.

Devlinne - Lost City · March 2009

Just a thought.

How would all of your GAMEPLAY be if there was no "bad guys"?

Log in everyday, say "hello pwi" go to a spot, grind/quest endlessly....someone accidently hits your mob "Oh, i am so sorry old chap" "Nono it was my fault my good man, pls carry on kind sir."

SERIOUSLY is this what you all striving for?

I can't believe that the MAJORITY wants this.

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Damn goes to show how many of you people were raised without love, You should treat people with respect and for god sake I don't care if people are 1x, 3x, 7x I treat them as a person not a bloody number, I left factions because at the end of the day there will be an **** of a leader that looks and a persons level and treats them like a tool.

What would you do if a YOU were level 30 trying to kill an oracle boss?

Seriously get some balls and grow up,

Devlinne people like you are the trolls of society go kill yourself.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Lol, no, you just need to stop complaining and move on.

You can always sell your Oracles for a lot of coin.

Devlinne - Lost City · March 2009

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Damn goes to show how many of you people were raised without love, You should treat people with respect and for god sake I don't care if people are 1x, 3x, 7x I treat them as a person not a bloody number, I left factions because at the end of the day there will be an **** of a leader that looks and a persons level and treats them like a tool.

What would you do if a YOU were level 30 trying to kill an oracle boss?

Seriously get some balls and grow up,

Devlinne people like you are the trolls of society go kill yourself.

Awwwww u hurt my FEELINGS.

Btw i was just stating how boring and mundane a GAME would be without challenges and some form of negative adversity.

You think by putting your point across with TENACITY, makes your point RIGHT?This is a GAME dweeb...get it? A GAME. We are supposed to be PLAYING around, doing whatever makes us happy. So what if one form of happiness is not your APPROVED form?Kill ourselves? Lolz you must be one of those picketing hippie type of people.

You better own your own home, married with children and supporting all them thru your own income, own ya own car fully paid before you tell ME to "grow up" son. You don't know who is behind the screen, but some others do and they will LAUGH at you.

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear · March 2009

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Damn goes to show how many of you people were raised without love, You should treat people with respect and for god sake I don't care if people are 1x, 3x, 7x I treat them as a person not a bloody number, I left factions because at the end of the day there will be an **** of a leader that looks and a persons level and treats them like a tool.

What would you do if a YOU were level 30 trying to kill an oracle boss?

Seriously get some balls and grow up,

Devlinne people like you are the trolls of society go kill yourself.

As opposed to sounding like a tool by telling people to "go kill yourself" which probably makes you just as bad as the people you dislike so much.

Agravain - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Actually the GMs have taken our grievances into consideration against that *cough* unnamed guild. During their most recent Oracle fiasco the GMs randomly teleported many ksers. Since they weren't doing anything technically in violation of rules this was a VERY strong action. It ticked off a few, made most of us chuckle, and restored my confidence that the GMs took player dissatisfaction very serious. Way to go GMs! Thanks.

How does them teleporting "KSers" out of the area mean they took "dissatisfaction" seriously? Isn't it possible that something other than players constant whining and complaining had something to do with it? You know, like they might not have had Oracle quests at the time, maybe? It's easy to jump to the conclusion that X happened because of Y when it might simply have been Z that was the reason, and unless the GMs come out and say it was reason Y you simply don't know.

GMs cannot discipline players simply because other players are unhappy or "dissatisfied" meaning there really does need to have been an infraction of the game rules committed. Just because some players "feel" that they are being KSed does not mean they are really being KSed. Just because some players "feel" unhappy because they truly believe someone is KSing them doesn't mean they are really being KSed. Just because someone is dissatisfied because the person they believe is KSing them doesn't mean that the other player is actually KSing them. Someone who is really really good at walking that fine line between bending the rules and breaking the rules can make it so that it is next to impossible to action them because they know that the GMs cannot act just because someone is unhappy or dissatisfied unless they are actually breaking the game rules, and not simply ignoring the "rules" the players made up.

Devlinne - Lost City · March 2009

OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

GMs cannot discipline players simply because other players are unhappy or "dissatisfied". There really does need to have an infraction of the game rules committed. Just because some players "feel" that they are being KSed does not mean they are really being KSed. Just because some players "feel" unhappy because they truly believe someone is KSing them doesn't mean they are really being KSed. Just because someone is dissatisfied because the person they believe is KSing them doesn't mean that the other player is actually KSing them. Someone who is really really good at walking that fine line between bending the rules and breaking the rules can make it so that it is next to impossible to action them because they know that the GMs cannot act just because someone is unhappy or dissatisfied unless they are actually breaking the game rules, and not simply ignoring the "rules" the players made up.

You hit the nail right on the head here. Pity not many ppl understand this.

OggoKing - Sanctuary · July 2011

We dont need democracy we have good gms who make great decicions!b:laugh Lol all they do is good and I love packs so its fine as it isb:victory

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · July 2011

Wow old school thread, and some people I'm glad I don't see anymore.

Speaking of Democracy, I'm sure we can come to an agreement that instead of blocking ambiguously interpreted names of genitalia or the use of it, we can block names of people who use names that derive basically letter-for-letter from existing mobs/NPC's, especially with original names like Oggo the Quillhog King or Qianji.

chaoticshelly · July 2011

Closed for necro.

We need Democracy

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