Why I'm not sure about Demon

Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'd always wanted to be demon, primarily for the Spark Eruption, but also the crit etc later on. Recently I've started to wonder though.

NOTE: yes i do know most of the abilities are not free or easy to get, I'm talking with both a short term and long term perspective.

First off, in PVP terms:
Demon Spark Eruption is amazing, no doubt.
Later on with more abilities though, i worry about Metal attacks. BM/Barbs have always been responsible for some of my more challenging fights -- while Demon's Lightning Strike never misses, I worry that its increased cooldown will slow my ability cycling -- Sage on the other hand actually lets you cycle faster, with a reduced cast/cooldown on Thunderous Blast.

In PVE:
Soloing: Sage seems to have the advantage, with a longer channel more powerful Take Aim as an impressive opener; and a stronger Blazing Arrow.
Later on in group play: (assuming you could get it) Sage's Sharpend Tooth is also impressive.


I do not claim to be an authority on this topic at all, and would be very interested to hear some opinions. Yes I've read every Demon/Sage topic ever written .

Both sides are balanced in terms of PvP and PvE in my opinion.
For PvP, a sage archer would be more flexible since they have better Elemental attacks ,allowing them to be more effective against BMs and Barbs.

In demon you will have better overall Dps. Why? Spark, Quickshot, Stunning arrow and Sharptooth. Unlike the sage skills, demon skills focus on killing Light and Robes, which is basically sacrificing flexibility for killing what they're supposed to kill. Which is good.

I see that you are worried about the Lightning strike(2 second CD increase but never miss).

This is pretty useless at first glance.HOWEVER if you're looking at the long term perspective, people will start to have 30% evasion endgame rings, until then if you're going demon you will have two choices:Level it up if you target archers more. Or dont bother leveling it if you wish to spam on Bms and Barbs

Now for PvE.
Sage Blazing arrow>demon. Are you seriously going to spam a 3 second channeling skill every 20 seconds? I think not.

Demon Quickshot owns all.

Take aim.... Uh don't worry its not much of a difference.

Sharpened Tooth on both sides are balanced, its a 6% MAX HP reduction Vs more Dps continuously.

100% my opinion.

Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

First off, in PVP terms:
...
Later on with more abilities though, i worry about Metal attacks. BM/Barbs have always been responsible for some of my more challenging fights -- while Demon's Lightning Strike never misses, I worry that its increased cooldown will slow my ability cycling -- Sage on the other hand actually lets you cycle faster, with a reduced cast/cooldown on Thunderous Blast.

Aside from the fact that archers are best vs. weaker targets, spike damage (increased crit/damage from t. blast, and no miss on lightning strike, not to mention extra accuracy) is what kills BM/Barbs. What good is faster cycling on barbs if you're going to just tick their charm and they can keep going? But I suppose if duel is all you worry about, where charms don't come into play, then yes I suppose the sage cycle would be better.

Annor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

In PVE:
Soloing: Sage seems to have the advantage, with a longer channel more powerful Take Aim as an impressive opener; and a stronger Blazing Arrow.
Later on in group play: (assuming you could get it) Sage's Sharpend Tooth is also impressive.

By the time you get to 99 and get the sage sharp tooth book, you could (of course it'd probably take longer) get blood vow not THAT long after. At 18%, it'll be pretty close to sage sharptooth. 10% crit is a lot, especially in PvP, to give up.

Even for day to day grinding, sages do not get as much advantage as you'd think.

Sage: 15% higher from bow mastery + 10% from blazing arrow = 25%
Demon: 2% higher crit (assuming they crit on regular attacks, so that's .02 * 2 * (1 + .75-mastery + .5-blazing)) 9% extra + quick shot (50% of 33% = 16.5) = 25.5%

But without quickshot, demon would have less grinding strength than sages.

(and of course, on fire mobs sages get the nice elemental bonus from frost arrow)

Overall, I still think demon is the way to go. But you're welcome to go sage, 'cause that means one less competitor for books for me xD

StellarAshes - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sage: 15% higher from bow mastery + 10% from blazing arrow = 25%
Demon: 2% higher crit (assuming they crit on regular attacks, so that's .02 * 2 * (1 + .75-mastery + .5-blazing)) 9% extra + quick shot (50% of 33% = 16.5) = 25.5%

I don't get the 9% thing, but, admittedly, this game's formulae are a mystery to me.
Now, I get the conclusion of the formula based on the values presented, just not the bases for its values. But, my Archer is no Celestial Dude yet, and I'm not familiar with the bonuses of the two paths therein apart from what ecatomb and these forums claim. With that said, I may not fully understand the considerations in the calculations above; still...
Can't we generally understand a Crit % bonus to be effectively equivalent to that much % in increased attack?
Example: Two completely equal Archers (save for crit percentages), each with attack 100-100, with one char at 100% crit and the other at 0% crit rate. The former does 100% more damage, as he does double-damage every strike (regardless of buffs they BOTH have, insofar as those buffs effect them equally*). Likewise, if the fight lasts long enough and proceeds consistently enough for the proper manifestation, a 1% difference in this same scenario amounts to 1% greater attack power. Thus, the crit bonus wouldn't be considered to multiply further with Bow Mastery or Blazing Arrow except insofar as there exists a difference in the potential of these buffs between two Archers*. A 2% bonus is just plain a 2% bonus. Further, since we're considering the increase to DPS and not the total amount inflicted, shouldn't we multiply by 1 (and not 2), anyway, since crit will increase damage by 1 point, not two points, for each existing point of DPS in this way?
As such, might not a more appropriate formula lead us to our original conclusion of a +2% increase, as follows?:
X = .02 * 1 [NOT CONSIDERED]* (1 + .75 + .5)[/NOT CONSIDERED] = .02 = 2%;
Y = .5 * .3 = .15 = 15%;
X + Y = 17% = Resulting DPS Increase

Now, how we penalize the Sage version for using "Weapon Damage" calculations, I know not for the same reasons listed below in my rant.

*This matter should actually lead us to suggest that the Crit Bonus is thusly penalized, resulting in an effect lower than 2%, since the passive bonuses are greater in the opposing category. But since I've yet to find hardly ANY formulae for this secretive lil' game anywhere on these forums (**Troa sizzles in his raging ignorance**), I can't say for certain how exactly we would calculate that penalty in the crit damage. In all honesty, however, we probably wouldn't really have to do so anyway, given the other advantages this path has in other areas to compensate for this loss of effectiveness.

Now, again, I'm still a newb, so whadoo I know? Nothin,' that's what, but I'm just throwin' this out there just in case these considerations need to be taken into account for the greatest accuracy in reflecting certain "PVE advantages," as they've been slated. Peace, good luck, and adios. ^_^

Well lots of archers use a lvl 1 bow at the begging to apply sharptooth to avoid drawing aggro.

I'm close to having to make the decision as well. I feel that sage may be better for PvE but demon seems to have more interesting skills. I like the HP leech on serrated arrow and the free winged shell you get from wingspan.

Still sage definitely has immediate benefits with the superior fb89 skills. I definitely feel my elemental combo could use the added all water frost arrow.

Demon spark is awesome but sage chi gain is big too.... tough call.

Uh if its chi u want, u do know that at lvl 100 u get a skill that recharges ur chi to full so that means two demon/sage sparks. Now i did used to want to go sage but the frost arrow losing out due to melee range reduction is lame ask any sage with this skill they will tell u it suffers melee range reduction. On ecatomb it says deadlyshot is aoe but its not it allows u to hit full strength in melee range and whats the point of that -.- im not gonna stand around tanking a couple seconds to use one skill up close that should be an opener at best. Sage take aim is better then demon but its not too much in pvp terms. Sage i do like the sharptooth since bloodvow i dont like reducing my own hp as well as oponent. I chose to want to go demon instead cause in the end all that matters to an archer is crit, crit, crit, and more crit. I do like sage archers in tw though wonder what it will be like when archers spam -20% hp reduction.

about bloodvow vs sharptooth in pvp
duels 1v1 ect keep youre agureing ill add
sharptooth is great in TW vs groups if ya got a caty sqyad od a gate defense/offense you can do a ton of aoe damage on the lights/arcanes that sometimes crowd 6m radius isisnt huge but its significant enough, its not just all about the hp reduction, and when it crits on some individuals well wowee its nice

If you are trying to use demon quick shot as an adventage for demon archer, demon quick shot is SUPER rare, even on fake servers very few people has it. Sage frost arrow is rather amazing to me as it adds another magic skill to the vs bm/barb rotation.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lightning skills still cooling down?

Ok so if lightning is on cool down u might as well use aim low if theres some distance or stunning arrow to give u time to run and set up next series of moves. As a sage if you got the luxury of free shots u can use thunder shock, lightning strike, thunderous blast, thunder shock, lightning strike and not worry about cool down until second lightning strike. Now thats 5 lightning moves in a row in a 11.5 second time permitting lag and animation. Using deadly shot on a barb is kinda useless since your damage will be dulled even if u crit its not much damage vs a 10k+ hp barb. You can use deadlyshot if u like but i will not give any melee class the luxury of getting a free hit/stun off on me and me using a move that is dulled.

@devoted did u get that from the1weekofarenaor how dou getmsyicalpage? sorryspace broken

....................mod delete this

Ding 89 ^^
I guess Im going demon. I found Devoted's argument to be pretty persuasive.
-Ast

Meilynazumi - Sanctuary wrote: »

hello im kinda new still to this but i am lvling fast lol to fast to understand thing i jus want a list of all skiils n pros n cons of both demons n sages not quite understanding things lol see plz i ask to be nice to me sorry for niot understanding posts to well ty oh also im building archer this one strictly for pve server no pvps for me maybe duels here n there though want something to kill fast at a distance

wow..........

You know, the one good thing about haveing a longer range from passives is that you can use aim low, move back 2m and have 5-6 sec to atk your target while they can do nothing to you. You can do that with demon, but not against other archers. Overall, I would say demon is better in the long run and sage is better short term considering how hard it is to currently get any of the 89+ books excluding take aim, blazing arrow and frost arrow and the 99 skills you can get from cube are also better for sage.