Territory War

aeson
aeson Posts: 0 Arc User
edited March 2009 in General Discussion
I feel that this belongs more in the suggestion forum, but I'd like both player and GM feedback.

I recently sent this in to their suggestion box:
With the ever increasing threads about a single guild taking over the map, I have an idea that might bring life back into TW.

Bring back the Wraith Army.

As first noted to take over a territory, one must fight the NPC army for it. By having the NPC army enter into TW by declaring war on certain areas (free of course, and cannot be overbid to prevent guilds from protecting themselves - the grim reaper has to show for the game of chess sometime) a guild opens themselves up to potentially more than 3 wars at once.

This means that the more territory one controls, the more one has to fight to keep it. This also means that they would be unable to field as many members per war and would stand a chance of loosing lands. This would open the TW map to other guilds.

This suggestion also has a few side effects, such as:

Opening up the reputation cap:
By having the Wraith Army return, the officers (assuming the class structure is generic) would drop badges, thus TW becomes an alternative to FB's and Crusades for the reputation we need.

Reason for leveling:
Currently most people stall out around L90-100, there is no more reason to level. By having the Wraith Army return (potentially even stronger with each successive loss against that territory), leveling would become paramount to stave off the ever increasing hordes knocking at the door.

Increased GM involvement:
Face it, the GM's want some fun too. With the Wraith Army, a GM could 'hijack' the commander in that TW instance and have fun with the players by giving them a challenge. This also opens up the possibility for new mobs that could be seen in TW specially piloted by the GM's. Win too often and see if you can beat the real commanders.

Please, help with more ideas and suggestions for how to liven up TW.
Post edited by aeson on

Comments

  • Zdolnoc - Sanctuary
    Zdolnoc - Sanctuary Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    I personally think that's an awesome idea. Though it should only be implemented on a server where the entire map is already taken over or with guilds with 3 or more territories. It would be useless on the newer servers as no one faction has established dominance. That's my opinion.
  • jemima
    jemima Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Oh god yes I support this.
    Just so long as the attacks are actually strong enough to be a challenge, which a guild might lose, rather than it just being free stuff for a guild that already owns lots of land can farm for more loot.
  • iamcleric
    iamcleric Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Bring back the Wraith Army? Hmm they would do it eventually but it's too soon to do a "wipe" on the occupied territories. PW Philippines did this only after more than 1 year and a half. And on Sanctuary Server, of the level 2 territories, only the City of Lost is occupied. Both level 1 territories has yet to be occupied as well.
    They'll probably do a "wipe" when the expansion pack comes or maybe even several months after that.
  • aeson
    aeson Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    I'm not suggesting a blanket wipe like another MMO did in it's death throws, I'm saying have an NPC army declare war on random territories to spice things up.

    Note: This may be LC centric becasue I play on LC, but seeing how Malay and China are in the same predicament of having 1-3 dominant guilds - I think it's safe to say that the same will happen to HT and Sanc.

    From what I've read about HT and Sanc, while the L1 territories haven't been taken, the territory war has been stagnating and the map is down to a few colors much like LC. The only difference is that Radiance and the dominant Sanc faction don't have a 300 million coin income per week and tele's to the L1's.

    Additionally, the dominant guilds hold most of the high server levels, so getting another similar powered faction up and running would be hard. They have the coin and prestige to either hire or offer other players what their current faction can't give. A rather large and powerful wraith army could challenge (and even beat them depending on how they do) the dominant factions, and with other guilds taking that opportunity to gang up on them (4v1 TW - 3 player and 1 NPC) would make the larger faction sweat.

    This gives everyone a chance to work for what they want. The larger guilds need a challenge, the others need an opportunity and the smaller ones need an incentive.

    On LC (where I play), no one really challenged CQ - they've taken both L1's, and have enough people to steamroll all 3 TW challenges from no-name guilds. They have run out of challenges. Trying to take CQ land is next to impossible becasue you can only have 3 TW a day (so no mass gang-ups) and they have nothing better to do than fight BloodLusT. Any potential TW on LC is stifled. HT and Sanc will probably go the same way once 1k and ADC fall.

    A server wipe wouldn't do much anyway. On LC CQ and BLT have enough coin to race for the L1 territories and expand from there. After that, you might see 1k or ADC in BLT hands, but the map will look very much the same (2 colors) after a while. No, what's needed here is some obstacle strong enough to say "You've made an Empire, lets see how well you can defend it".
  • Arodnur - Lost City
    Arodnur - Lost City Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    aeson wrote: »
    The only difference is that Radiance and the dominant Sanc faction don't have a 300 million coin income per week and tele's to the L1's.

    Benefits of being THE BEST b:cool

    Gotta work for the good things b:cute
    Rundora
  • aeson
    aeson Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Arodnur - Lost City wrote: »
    Benefits of being THE BEST

    Gotta work for the good things

    Honestly, I'm impressed at what CQ has done Arodnur. Other than the mythical FB109 Misty City / Residence of Blasphemy (Ecatomb FB Maps), Frost City and Lunar Glade, very little stands in your way of complete dominance.

    What to do when you've beaten everything?
    In addition, you state "Gotta work for the good things"

    So, TW Wraith Army - work to keep that empire you've built, as well as the renewed challenges that the other factions will send your way hoping that 4 or more territory wars a day will be enough to slow the CQ engine. Wouldn't that be a challenge to look forward to?

    Then you have the GM's - if they take the idea to pilot the commander themselves, that would make for not only a much harder battle, but also very interesting bragging rights.

    Maybe even enough to see if you can get them to let you fight Radiance in an inter-server war.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Something really interesting would be, instead of having the GM control the monster, have a GM BE the boss of the wraith army. Equipped with all their GM gear.

    9,999,999 - 9,999,999 phy and magic attack on their weapon
    9,999,999 of the rest of the stats on their cape.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Criticalhitz - Heavens Tear
    Criticalhitz - Heavens Tear Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Arodnur - Lost City wrote: »
    Benefits of being THE BEST b:cool

    Gotta work for the good things b:cute

    That attitude is why people hate on Radiance, don't brag.

    On topic - I agree with this persons idea fully, a random attack on territories (that aren't being attacked by more then 2 guilds) should randomly attack a spot and if the NPC army wins..the land is taken from that guild and put as free land, who ever bids n beats the NPCs/Bosses wins it just like when the map was empty. Great idea, there would have to be more details such as how many lands can you hold until the wraith army attacks and such.
    Making new char..Which one? I have a BM..but I want more damage and stuff to do..

    Experienced players contact with the cons n pros of there class and where to put points n what skills to up ASAP thanks..
  • aeson
    aeson Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Criticalhitz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    That attitude is why people hate on Radiance, don't brag.

    They've earned it though, so as much as people hate it, they did win and as such - have that privilege. Until someone takes it from them that is.
    Criticalhitz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    On topic - I agree with this persons idea fully, a random attack on territories (that aren't being attacked by more then 2 guilds) should randomly attack a spot and if the NPC army wins..the land is taken from that guild and put as free land, who ever bids n beats the NPCs/Bosses wins it just like when the map was empty. Great idea, there would have to be more details such as how many lands can you hold until the wraith army attacks and such.

    Keeping an idea open-ended is a good thing, lets the developers implement it in a way that suits, hopefully, everyone. Mechanics would have to be developed, but I don't get paid for that, so I'll leave it to them to determine.

    Ideas? Suggestions? I'd like to see other thoughts on territory war and how to make it better - I know you people out there have something bouncing around in your head.

    Oh, and GM's - look into the inter-server war I posted earlier in response to Arodnur. Might be a good event to host from time to time to get some feuds and rivalries built.
  • Arodnur - Lost City
    Arodnur - Lost City Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    aeson wrote: »
    They've earned it though, so as much as people hate it, they did win and as such - have that privilege. Until someone takes it from them that is.



    Keeping an idea open-ended is a good thing, lets the developers implement it in a way that suits, hopefully, everyone. Mechanics would have to be developed, but I don't get paid for that, so I'll leave it to them to determine.

    Ideas? Suggestions? I'd like to see other thoughts on territory war and how to make it better - I know you people out there have something bouncing around in your head.

    Oh, and GM's - look into the inter-server war I posted earlier in response to Arodnur. Might be a good event to host from time to time to get some feuds and rivalries built.

    You bet we've earned it b:cute

    But I like the ideas to liven up TW, as long as it's possible to win then any decent challenge would be cool.
    Rundora
  • XAsch - Sanctuary
    XAsch - Sanctuary Posts: 855 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    I think the GM's should make up a faction, and attack each of the main factions, until they're wiped off the map, then continue attacking everyone until nobody can do anything about it. Resulting in no TW's, and nobody continuously whining over it. b:victory
  • Skyannie - Lost City
    Skyannie - Lost City Posts: 351 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    XAsch - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I think the GM's should make up a faction, and attack each of the main factions, until they're wiped off the map, then continue attacking everyone until nobody can do anything about it. Resulting in no TW's, and nobody continuously whining over it. b:victory

    We'd have to instruct them on how to bid land and pull catapults. b:surrender

    No, but seriously, lol. While this thread makes an interesting suggestion, its implementation is far-fetched. To explain why it is so, I bring up the case of the mythical bleed coding that can't be found or altered. Even more, as far as I know, it's not a feature in the CN server, and hence can't be a feature here, sadly.

    Of course, I can't say it's not an agreeable suggestion, all within the scope of possibility of succeeding, not a "I kill you cause I lost last week so I now has 99999999 hp and 99999 attk powa!", you know?
    As only the child that I was, I tread with giants.
    Their footprints on the sand, marked for times immemorial, serve as evidence of hope.
    And though my short legs could not keep up, my heart was always by their side. Conqueror.
  • wraithxxx
    wraithxxx Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Skyannie - Lost City wrote: »
    We'd have to instruct them on how to bid land and pull catapults. b:surrender

    And make sure they know TW isn't in fb79 like they thought the harpy wraith was. b:surrender
  • Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear
    Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    The problem with the TW system is that it was obviously designed by a person who didn't have the slightest clue about good PvP design. I think the current system is beyond saving. It is in the human nature to want to be with the winners, so powerful guilds get more applicants than less powerful one. So, a good PvP system always has self-balance mechanisms while the current TW system makes powerful guilds even more powerful. The Wraith Army would be a small remedy sure (the basic idea is correct: make it harder to control many territories, not easier as the current system does), but it would be in no way be sufficient to bring balance to a system that's as completely flawed as TW. A complete redesign is needed, and I can't see that happening.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thanduril
    thanduril Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    random wraith army attacks on guild with +number of lands to control land hoarding.
    not a bad idea at all.
    /signed
  • aeson
    aeson Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The problem with the TW system is that it was obviously designed by a person who didn't have the slightest clue about good PvP design. I think the current system is beyond saving. It is in the human nature to want to be with the winners, so powerful guilds get more applicants than less powerful one. So, a good PvP system always has self-balance mechanisms while the current TW system makes powerful guilds even more powerful. The Wraith Army would be a small remedy sure (the basic idea is correct: make it harder to control many territories, not easier as the current system does), but it would be in no way be sufficient to bring balance to a system that's as completely flawed as TW. A complete redesign is needed, and I can't see that happening.

    A very valid viewpoint on the situation. Criticism is always welcome, but can you give some ideas as to how to fix it? We know it's obviously broken, but to come up with ways to repair it is harder than just saying "It needs an overhaul".

    What would you like to see fixed to make it more interesting/challenging/fair?
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Well one thing is that TW should not give money. All that money just makes the strong guilds stronger and greatly inflates everything price-wise.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Criticalhitz - Heavens Tear
    Criticalhitz - Heavens Tear Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Well one thing is that TW should not give money. All that money just makes the strong guilds stronger and greatly inflates everything price-wise.

    So fight for a free Teleport to a distant land every 30 minutes right? That seems worth charms. I think they should get paid it's one of the reasons people TW, can't take money away.
    Making new char..Which one? I have a BM..but I want more damage and stuff to do..

    Experienced players contact with the cons n pros of there class and where to put points n what skills to up ASAP thanks..
  • Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear
    Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    aeson wrote: »
    A very valid viewpoint on the situation. Criticism is always welcome, but can you give some ideas as to how to fix it? We know it's obviously broken, but to come up with ways to repair it is harder than just saying "It needs an overhaul".

    What would you like to see fixed to make it more interesting/challenging/fair?

    I agree on that constructive criticism is to be preferred above just saying "it's bad". However I cannot answer the question on how to fix TW since I am very convinced there is no way to fix the current system in a way that it's still recognizable after the change. It will be a whole new system.

    In my opinion, these are the design criteria for a good PvP system:

    - Is self balancing. That means that it will not leave a handful of guilds to dominate the game in a way that makes it entirely pointless for anyone else to even participate.
    - Offers fun for all, powerful and less powerful guilds, larger and smaller guilds alike.
    - Requires a great range of different strategies and skills to be successful.
    - Doesn't entirely rely on levels/gear but has a strong emphasis on player skill.
    - Doesn't have fixed schedules but offers PvP fun all around the clock

    The current TW system violates every single one of those criteria. It's why I think it cannot be salvaged at all. A PvP system I'd personally like to see in PW could work as follows:

    1. Every guild has a PvP rank, determined by the number of matches they won and against whom (victories against higher ranked guilds = more points etc.).
    2. Matches start continuously (say once per hour). If a guild wants to PvP, they assemble a team of max 15 persons (to put a lid on the power that one guild can project onto the battlefield and thus give smaller guilds a fighting chance, not only huge ones) and start a match at the assigned time.
    3. The matching system selects PvP willing guilds of roughly the same rank and pins them against each other. That way even weaker guilds can have fun in PvP. There are a number of maps with different objectives, one is chosen randomly for the match.
    4. Winner gets rank points and some reward (e.g. cash).
    5. The 30 highest ranked guilds at the end of each week are assigned one territory each. Holding territories gives access to some more rewards. The higher the rank the better the territory they get. No guild can have more than one territory, ever.
    6. Rank points are being reset once every 3 months.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • aeson
    aeson Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I agree on that constructive criticism is to be preferred above just saying "it's bad". However I cannot answer the question on how to fix TW since I am very convinced there is no way to fix the current system in a way that it's still recognizable after the change. It will be a whole new system.

    You're right, it would be a completely new system, which unfortunately I don't think the devs could do. The main problem here is that they already have a system that has been operational for a few years. What they would need would be more akin to a plug-in rather than an overhaul. There are some nice ideas in there though, and if they can be decoupled from the complete revision you posted, I think they could be used, or at least suggested.

    What I find most interesting is the hourly pvp arena. Unfortunately, your system removes some of the current incentives - mostly controlling more and more territory which is a rather large reason to TW in the first place. If you do implement hourly pvp, sort of like TW skirmishes, in addition to hourly bids for the skirmishes rather than the current weekly bids, you would have something. The guild that wins the most skirmishes is allowed to war for the land itself come the weekend. That could be a better incentive rather than the current system.

    This would also have the added effect of removing most of the pk campers from the main world at times. Here in LC, the camping of Heaven's Tear is annoying for most of the L30's. By opening up a window where most or none of the PK'ers would be there, those levels could do their quests. It wouldn't be removing global pvp per-se, but rather relocating it at times to open up opportunities for everyone.

    Edit:
    On second thought, hourly might be too much for that - perhaps twice a day or so? This would allow for longer pvp battles, and might make the system more palatable to those watching. Then there's also the fact that TW is not the game itself, so there's no point in making it into something akin to the horse races. I could be wrong here, but it bears thinking on.

    Any other thoughts?

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