Squads

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Comments

  • jalenstar4ever
    jalenstar4ever Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I have to admit that I also find it strange why some people insist on fighting the same mobs, in the same area and rather compete for every single spawn instead of just grouping up and getting the job done in half the time. Doesn't make any sense.

    Another vague point to consider ...

    Does exp go down when grouped?

    Meaning, does grouping cause exp do go down or is it the same exp gain when grouped as it is when playing solo?

    Because if so, that may be another reason why people would rather not accept invites.
  • Celestyna - Heavens Tear
    Celestyna - Heavens Tear Posts: 629 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    When i was lower level I would send out invites to whoever was in my area (ie broken bow) and fighting the same mobs, typically would say on open chat what i was fighting then send invites to everyone. also if someone ks's me more then once i will invite them still ... may as well if they are gonna keep trying to take my kills

    I do not whisper people, i figure the squad invite says it without wasting the time to click them hit whisper type it out then hit enter then wait for a reply and then invite... i could have killed 2 or 3 mobs in that time.

    Once they are in squad I ask how many left and what all they need, then i stay until everyone in my squad is done (sometimes inviting people even after i am done and helping them finish too)

    I find it highly rude when someone fights for the spawn but doesnt want to party even when you do whisper them. the ossin guards is a perfect example there is like 5 of them that spawn.. at any given time there is 3 or 4 people there trying to kill them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mentallaxative
    mentallaxative Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Sigrun - Harshlands wrote: »
    No, it isn't always obvious that someone is killing your "quest mobs" for a quest, and it's an assumption on your part that they are killing "quest mobs" which is why it's always better to ask first.

    You don't have the time to take 15 seconds to be courteous, and it's rude to consider not doing so rude?

    When grinding for loot, if grouped, the coin loot gets split evenly while the non-coin loot is distributed randomly meaning the person only farming for coin/matts will probably get less than if they simply solo farmed.


    Seriously, it's called communication, and it isn't that hard to do.

    It is absolutely possible to accept a squad invitation and then talk to them. Maybe they prefer talking to people in squad instead of pm or common chat, who knows. If you're not happy with their response you're free to leave. Why does everything have to fall in a prescribed order before you want to have anything to do with them? Is it so horrible when people don't have the same ideas about etiquette as you?

    If you believe random distribution is unfair, then you wouldn't join any squad using it, friendly or otherwise, because you believe that your drop rate is lowered from sharing with others.

    And if you want communication, join a faction that uses Ventrilo. Now you can have a genuine, warm conversation with other human beings in real time as opposed to a detached and cryptic 'u r killing eldergoth?'
  • Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear
    Kimyrielle - Heavens Tear Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    jalenstar4ever wrote: »
    Another vague point to consider ...

    Does exp go down when grouped?

    Meaning, does grouping cause exp do go down or is it the same exp gain when grouped as it is when playing solo?

    Because if so, that may be another reason why people would rather not accept invites.

    Actually you get a bonus for grouping. Instead of say 100XP for a solo kill, you get say 120XP for each monster with a partner present, which is then divided by 2 = 60XP for each player. That's less than a solo kill, but you kill twice as fast, meaning you get more XP per minute than alone.

    The one point I concede to the "I do everything alone" people is that if you _only_ do enough kills to get your quests done, you'd get the quest done twice as fast in a group but end up with less total XP than you'd have gotten alone (because you shared your XP for kills with the party as shown above). However, you can use the time saved to kill _more_ critters, so you still would benefit from grouping. So you always benefit from grouping.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sigr - Heavens Tear
    Sigr - Heavens Tear Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    mentallaxative wrote: »
    It is absolutely possible to accept a squad invitation and then talk to them. Maybe they prefer talking to people in squad instead of pm or common chat, who knows. If you're not happy with their response you're free to leave. Why does everything have to fall in a prescribed order before you want to have anything to do with them? Is it so horrible when people don't have the same ideas about etiquette as you?

    Why should I even join their group if they aren't willing to tell me what they are doing first, or aren't seemingly willing to simply ask?


    If you believe random distribution is unfair, then you wouldn't join any squad using it, friendly or otherwise, because you believe that your drop rate is lowered from sharing with others.

    Every squad invite I've ever gotten has been random distribution, and I've lost a lot of matts I needed because of it. It's been random distribution because that's the default setting, and they leave it at that. That's fine if you aren't farming matts or simply items to vendor or something then it's not ideal because then you have a one in X chance of actually getting something that drops that you were out there farming for in the first place.
    And if you want communication, join a faction that uses Ventrilo. Now you can have a genuine, warm conversation with other human beings in real time as opposed to a detached and cryptic 'u r killing eldergoth?'

    It looks like you don't know the meaning of the word "detached", and that's bad use of sarcasm.
    Lament of a Hybrid Veno: Where oh where did my spirit go? b:sad

    I hate ranged mobs. b:angry

    I <3 my cactopod. b:pleased
  • Kratos_blade - Sanctuary
    Kratos_blade - Sanctuary Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    I usually ask what they're doing if I get a blind invite but me personally I usually ask people in the area if they're killing the same monster I am (generally yes) so we group up.

    I've made a couple of new friends this way.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    The opposite of receiving a blind invite occurs to me occasionally:

    ElenaCostel: Greetings, hero. Would you like to cooperate in defeating these evil fiends?
    FakeNameHere: Wha?
    *Elena tries to hold back a sigh in real life*
    ElenaCostel: Party?
    Knock Knock Knock - FakeNameHere sends you a squad invitation.
    *Elena fails to hold back a sigh in real life*
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I have been flying over or running through areas far below my level and gotten blind squad invites.
    I've had the same thing happen many times too. I've been tempted to accept and loiter in the area to see how long it takes them to figure out they're not getting much exp anymore.
    Sigrun - Harshlands wrote: »
    No, it isn't always obvious that someone is killing your "quest mobs" for a quest, and it's an assumption on your part that they are killing "quest mobs" which is why it's always better to ask first.
    Right. I get a ton of blind squad invites when I'm trying to level up low-level pets. I try to kill mobs I know aren't quest mobs, but simply being in the area and killing stuff quickly seems to attract the blind invites. It gets tiring explaining over and over again that I'm leveling a pet and they would get almost no exp if grouped with me.
    mentallaxative wrote: »
    It is absolutely possible to accept a squad invitation and then talk to them. Maybe they prefer talking to people in squad instead of pm or common chat, who knows. If you're not happy with their response you're free to leave. Why does everything have to fall in a prescribed order before you want to have anything to do with them? Is it so horrible when people don't have the same ideas about etiquette as you?
    How does that make any sense? *They* don't want to talk in common chat or via pm, so *I* have to accommodate them and join their group so they can tell me what they're killing so I can decide I shouldn't have joined in the first place? Why should *I* have to go out of my way to use my time to make it easier for *them* to get around the limitations of *their* self-imposed choice?

    I mean in RL with handicapped people I can understand it because they're born that way or probably afflicted with their handicap through no fault of their own. But everyone in the game has the capability to talk in common chat or pm. If you refuse to use it, then that's your choice and your burden to bear. It makes no sense to criticize others for refusing to waste their time making it easier for you to live with your self-imposed choice.
    If you believe random distribution is unfair, then you wouldn't join any squad using it, friendly or otherwise, because you believe that your drop rate is lowered from sharing with others.
    You're assuming we think random distribution is inherently unfair. It's not. It's inherently random. If I'm with a guild group or with friends, random makes sense because we'll ask for and trade the items we know we or others need, while the remaining trash loot gets split randomly. But in a pick-up group a lot of times your request for an item will be met with silence. This is especially annoying when I know the person I've grouped with wasn't looting their kills. But now that I'm grouped, half the drops that I'm picking up are being sent to them and they're unresponsive to anything I say.

    Sure I can quit the group, but then I've wasted time to figure out that it wasn't worth grouping. Time that could've saved if they were willing to talk about it before I joined the group. That's really the key here. By choosing to group only with people who are willing to talk, I'm filtering out a lot of people I know I might have a problem with in groups. Sure I'm probably filtering out some good people, but over time I've learned that the chance of meeting those good people that way is not worth the wasted time, items, and overall bad feelings from accepting blind invites.

    You don't owe me anything and I don't owe you anything. I don't have to accept your blind invite, and you don't have to talk to me before inviting. We are incompatible, and the choices we make about how we form groups insure that we will never be grouped together. So there is no problem here.
  • Foxx - Heavens Tear
    Foxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Sigr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So, there's no need to be considerate anymore?


    Good to know.

    I dont know what sort of twisted logic you used to arrive at this conclusion, but spare me the explanation as its obviously a load of bull.
  • Foxx - Heavens Tear
    Foxx - Heavens Tear Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    mentallaxative wrote: »
    I think a single blind invite is not rude.

    Repeated blind invites, after a person has refused them previously, is definitely rude.

    Sometimes it is just obvious when another person needs the same mob as you for a quest. A verbal request to squad is nice, but not necessary. You can always leave the squad if the person who invited you doesn't respond in squad chat.

    I don't have time to be persnickety about etiquette. Players who refuse blind invites because they think it is rude are being rude themselves if they choose to kill quest mobs on their own when others are willing to help.

    Even if you are grinding for money and have no quests, as long as your level difference with the other player is not too great, your total drop rate will not be affected. The worst situation is then that your squad member goes idle or hangs back and expects you to kill everything for him or her, in which case that problem is easily fixed by leaving.

    finally some sanity prevails on these forums.
  • Julyah - Sanctuary
    Julyah - Sanctuary Posts: 160 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    ElenaCostel: Greetings, hero. Would you like to cooperate in defeating these evil fiends?
    That's golden! Too bad I'm on a different server. :(
    [Tech Support Junkie]
    Player 1: "I dont believe this is an off-topic worthy thread."
    Player 2: "It's not even worth it for lower depths. What do we do?"
    Player 3: "Delete it?"
    Mod: "Moving this to tech support."
    _________________________________
    Sanctuary: Julyah - Venomancer | Tevos - Wizard | Elliana - Archer
  • Kratos_blade - Sanctuary
    Kratos_blade - Sanctuary Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The opposite of receiving a blind invite occurs to me occasionally:

    ElenaCostel: Greetings, hero. Would you like to cooperate in defeating these evil fiends?

    I want to be your friend.

    Haha I like this opening.
  • mentallaxative
    mentallaxative Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Apologies for the long response.
    Sigr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Why should I even join their group if they aren't willing to tell me what they are doing first, or aren't seemingly willing to simply ask?
    *shrugs* I can't speak for everyone for who does that. People have different ideas about how to do things. The reason I brought up that was because I've done that several times--accepted a blind invite and was asked what I was doing--and I think that's no different to someone asking first in common. I use the same amount of time replying in common chat as in squad chat, and if you feel that pressing a button to leave an undesirable squad is a waste of time... well, try not measuring your life in seconds.
    Sigr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It looks like you don't know the meaning of the word "detached", and that's bad use of sarcasm.

    I am using the definition marked by an absence of emotional involvement and an aloof, impersonal objectivity from answers.com which is exactly how I view that phrase I wrote. If you don't think so, that's okay. As for sarcasm, I'll give another shrug--sarcasm is difficult to detect on the internet, and admittedly I suck at sarcasm irl. And, how is any of this relevant to the discussion...?
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    How does that make any sense? *They* don't want to talk in common chat or via pm, so *I* have to accommodate them and join their group so they can tell me what they're killing so I can decide I shouldn't have joined in the first place? Why should *I* have to go out of my way to use my time to make it easier for *them* to get around the limitations of *their* self-imposed choice?

    I mean in RL with handicapped people I can understand it because they're born that way or probably afflicted with their handicap through no fault of their own. But everyone in the game has the capability to talk in common chat or pm. If you refuse to use it, then that's your choice and your burden to bear. It makes no sense to criticize others for refusing to waste their time making it easier for you to live with your self-imposed choice.

    Ease up on the asterisk-ridden emphasis there. Your last sentence applies equally to the people who are too inflexible to understand that other players might choose to do things differently--invite first and talk later. If you are concerned about wasting time due to other people's methods of social interaction, I suggest not playing a game with other people in it who might have different values to you.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You're assuming we think random distribution is inherently unfair. It's not. It's inherently random. If I'm with a guild group or with friends, random makes sense because we'll ask for and trade the items we know we or others need, while the remaining trash loot gets split randomly. But in a pick-up group a lot of times your request for an item will be met with silence. This is especially annoying when I know the person I've grouped with wasn't looting their kills. But now that I'm grouped, half the drops that I'm picking up are being sent to them and they're unresponsive to anything I say.

    If you admit that random is fair, then in the long run you will receive just as much as you did solo--which is my point. And if you're not satisfied with the squad, leave. My original remarks were made in the context of quest mobs, so I wasn't suggesting that grinding in a squad for a specific drop was strictly better than going solo (it isn't, especially with unknown players, as you've illustrated here).
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sure I can quit the group, but then I've wasted time to figure out that it wasn't worth grouping. Time that could've saved if they were willing to talk about it before I joined the group. That's really the key here. By choosing to group only with people who are willing to talk, I'm filtering out a lot of people I know I might have a problem with in groups. Sure I'm probably filtering out some good people, but over time I've learned that the chance of meeting those good people that way is not worth the wasted time, items, and overall bad feelings from accepting blind invites.

    I don't seem to have the problem you have with accepting blind invitations. Perhaps it's just luck that I don't have such bad experiences. You make sense here, but I think my approach has equal or greater merit. I don't get upset when a blind invite squad member doesn't respond, I just leave.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You don't owe me anything and I don't owe you anything. I don't have to accept your blind invite, and you don't have to talk to me before inviting. We are incompatible, and the choices we make about how we form groups insure that we will never be grouped together. So there is no problem here.

    From a selfish perspective, yes. From an overall perspective, players who have the same quest to kill the same mob who choose not to squad are losing out to players who do squad. Consider this:

    A wizard and a barbarian need the same quest done. The barbarian sends a blind invite, which the wizard rejects as being rude. Both of them start killing the same mobs and ks'ing each other. The barbarian takes a long time to kill his enemies due to his inferior damage and the wizard has to play inefficiently by running away occasionally due to his inability to tank.

    Another wizard-barbarian pair with the same quest has the barbarian also send a blind invite, which the wizard accepts. The barb asks if the wizard if he needs the same mobs, and he says yes. They start killing the mobs together, with the barb tanking and the wizard casting from a safe distance. If either of them start attacking different mobs or going idle, one of them will likely leave.

    Which pair is more efficient?

    Among all the discussions here, I like this one enough to post so much in it. Etiquette is a terribly subjective thing, and I feel that a lot of people's ideas about it here tend to bleed into real life. Rudeness happens every day, and I just learn to shrug and get on with life rather than fight it. b:bye
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    A wizard and a barbarian need the same quest done. The barbarian sends a blind invite, which the wizard rejects as being rude. Both of them start killing the same mobs and ks'ing each other. The barbarian takes a long time to kill his enemies due to his inferior damage and the wizard has to play inefficiently by running away occasionally due to his inability to tank.

    Another wizard-barbarian pair with the same quest has the barbarian also send a blind invite, which the wizard accepts. The barb asks if the wizard if he needs the same mobs, and he says yes. They start killing the mobs together, with the barb tanking and the wizard casting from a safe distance. If either of them start attacking different mobs or going idle, one of them will likely leave.

    Which pair is more efficient?

    The above is misleading, because there are two other scenarios:

    A third wizard-barbarian pair need the same quest done. The barbarian first asks if the wizard wants to party. The wizard declines for reasons unknown. No squad invitation is sent. Inefficiency prevails, allowing the Wraith Army to win against the Perfect World.

    A fourth wizard-barbarian pair need the same quest done. The barbarian first asks if the wizard wants to party. The wizard responds by asking if the barbarian is going after the same mobs, and the barbarian says yes. The wizard decides to accept the squad invitation. Efficiency in slaying the evil fiends occurs.

    Scenario 4 is as efficient as Scenario 2, as you had mentioned.


    To summarize this thread:

    - Some people think it is rude to send a blind invite, in a typical, reasonable setting.
    - Some people think it is within the bounds of courtesy to send a blind invite, in a typical, reasonable setting.
    - Nobody thinks it is rude to ask first.

    Did I miss anything?
  • Naku - Lost City
    Naku - Lost City Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The opposite of receiving a blind invite occurs to me occasionally:

    ElenaCostel: Greetings, hero. Would you like to cooperate in defeating these evil fiends?
    FakeNameHere: Wha?
    *Elena tries to hold back a sigh in real life*
    ElenaCostel: Party?
    Knock Knock Knock - FakeNameHere sends you a squad invitation.
    *Elena fails to hold back a sigh in real life*
    lol! too bad you are in HT! or else i would totally party you everytime if you ask me like that :3~
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    mentallaxative wrote: »
    From a selfish perspective, yes. From an overall perspective, players who have the same quest to kill the same mob who choose not to squad are losing out to players who do squad. Consider this:

    A wizard and a barbarian need the same quest done. The barbarian sends a blind invite, which the wizard rejects as being rude. Both of them start killing the same mobs and ks'ing each other. The barbarian takes a long time to kill his enemies due to his inferior damage and the wizard has to play inefficiently by running away occasionally due to his inability to tank.

    Nice generalizations about classes, and treating the supposed players as jerks who KS and are complete idiots.

    Most of the time when you have players in the same area that are not grouped they will usually not attack the same mobs, but it does happen.


    Another wizard-barbarian pair with the same quest has the barbarian also send a blind invite, which the wizard accepts. The barb asks if the wizard if he needs the same mobs, and he says yes. They start killing the mobs together, with the barb tanking and the wizard casting from a safe distance. If either of them start attacking different mobs or going idle, one of them will likely leave.

    Are the examples assuming the barb is only using tiger form and the wizard is an arcane robes build?


    Which pair is more efficient?

    Obviously the second because you portrayed the first set as idiotic jerks who KS.

    How do we know this? You set it up purposely to make the first group look as inefficient as possible which nullifies your entire point and post.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kalza - Sanctuary
    Kalza - Sanctuary Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The opposite of receiving a blind invite occurs to me occasionally:

    ElenaCostel: Greetings, hero. Would you like to cooperate in defeating these evil fiends?
    FakeNameHere: Wha?
    *Elena tries to hold back a sigh in real life*
    ElenaCostel: Party?
    Knock Knock Knock - FakeNameHere sends you a squad invitation.
    *Elena fails to hold back a sigh in real life*[/QUOTE

    That's the most epic dialogue ever XD why r u in HT D*
  • Darksylph - Heavens Tear
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,816 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    I do have to mention one factor which comes into play, Namely Venos. Many hate how Venos will often not party (I'm also a lvl 80 Veno, this isnt an anti-veno speech). There is a good reason for Venos not accepting invites, especially blind ones from people they don't know. There is a glitch in the pet levelling system, which makes it as if you're never in a party as far as your pet getting experience. By this i mean whether you're in a party or not, your pet ONLY gains experience if the Veno+Pet does the highest damage, ignoring the fact that other damage sources were teamates. As such Veno pets are often getting no experience if they arent the highest damage output in the group. And since they need to keep several pets (3 to 6 depending) levelled up, they really need to make sure their pets are gaining experience lest they fall behind.
  • Elenacostel - Heavens Tear
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Kalza - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That's the most epic dialogue ever XD why r u in HT D*

    My thanx, everyone, for your commendations regarding my manner of speech. I endeavor to please.

    On a tangent, on this past weekend, I had asked fellow heroes on several separate instances if they wish to work in concert to exterminate the foul Carrion Vultures. Alas, only one had decided such cooperation would be beneficial, and that is mainly due to our previous alliances.

    Strangely enough, given my recent acquisition of the Wind and the Clouds slingshot, I believe my incredible prowess at curbing the Carrion population would have helped others more than they could have helped me. (If you see an archer grinding while wielding the Wind and the Clouds, I recommend you join him or her.)

    I can only conclude, then, that there are many others who simply do not realize that joining into a competent squad increases experience gains. As a result of this ignorance, they reject invitations, blind or not. If only others were as enlightened as we are.

    Perhaps if there was some sort of repeating message from the powers on high to tell them to read the bulletin boards...
  • Advent_fox - Sanctuary
    Advent_fox - Sanctuary Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    mentallaxative wrote: »
    I think a single blind invite is not rude.

    Repeated blind invites, after a person has refused them previously, is definitely rude.

    Sometimes it is just obvious when another person needs the same mob as you for a quest. A verbal request to squad is nice, but not necessary. You can always leave the squad if the person who invited you doesn't respond in squad chat.

    I don't have time to be persnickety about etiquette. Players who refuse blind invites because they think it is rude are being rude themselves if they choose to kill quest mobs on their own when others are willing to help.

    Even if you are grinding for money and have no quests, as long as your level difference with the other player is not too great, your total drop rate will not be affected. The worst situation is then that your squad member goes idle or hangs back and expects you to kill everything for him or her, in which case that problem is easily fixed by leaving.

    i agree with everything you say accept the part about grinding on the same mob and it being rude to decline a invite.


    i honestly think if a person wants to play alone let them play, just because they are out farming killing creatures for money/drops/exp, that in no ways requires them to join up with another player two who happen to need the same mobs

    that's whats is great about this game, play it alone or with friends, it's your choice, it's freedom, everyone deserves to have that choice

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