The Common PvP Misconception

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Asgenar - Lost City
Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
edited February 2009 in Blademaster
People time and time again think that this game is balanced. Sadly, it isn't. I love it when people say that sword/spear users do the most damage to a single target when in fact, that is not true. Axe skill damage trumps all other warrior trees. (In general). AoE damage is not split up among the enemies so the damage numbers that you see on the skill are APPLIED TO ALL ENEMIES THAT ARE HIT. Thus, axe warriors will do as much damage to a single target as to a group of enemies. This being said, there is no reason to play any other skill tree and away with the "labels" for different weapons.

Also, PvP for melee classes is mainly skill/spike damage. Fast attack speed with low weapon attack damage isn't very effective because of one thing: hp hiero. All opponents have to do is to move back a bit and wait for hiero to retick. Because of this, it is harder for players that have low base physical attack to win in pvp. Now, you'll say that you have 2 stuns, well guess what, so do the other warrior weapon trees and axe warriors even have one more. This basically negates the purpose of being a fist warrior in PvP. Now on to blade warriors. Sadly, they would be much better if they were given a much better option of HH weapons. But the main HH weapons for blade warriors are single-blades which do not excel at pvp. By the time you are at the level to equip a decent dual blade, the Axe tree will have come out with a better one already. And Finally, the spear warriors. Yes, you have the advantage of having better range, but you still cannot outdamage an axe warrior. Spears are mainly secondary weapons, used when players are running to get those last hits in before hiero reticks. Other than that, I see no other advantage that makes them a better pvp weapon than others.
Post edited by Asgenar - Lost City on

Comments

  • Fleez - Heavens Tear
    Fleez - Heavens Tear Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    i'm guessing u favor....axes??
    ATTENTION ALL: I would just like you to know....I has fleas.
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Fleez - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i'm guessing u favor....axes??

    nah, I actually like blade warriors. I don't favor axes, just pointing out the common misconceptions.
  • ShadeKitty - Sanctuary
    ShadeKitty - Sanctuary Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I admit in PvP axes are the god weapons for BMs, but no matter what they are mp hogs, no questions asked. In PvE yes axes have crazy spike damage, and once again are mp hogs, but if you can hit 1k in one hit and 2.5k in the next, it averages out to about 1.75k damage per hit, fists can hit this easily as well, and alot faster, not to mention at teh cost of alot less mp. I agree that in PvP and AoE axes are superior, but for single targets a well built fist BM can do more damage, and at a far smaller cost. Personally I suggest a hybrid axe/fist (it can be done, I'm doing it on my BM), although this leaves little to no room for vit as you have to have a fairly good balance of str and dex (I do not suggest this pre-60 or even pre-70 as your spirit won't stretch that far) I like my fists/claws because of teh weapon abilites and speed of attack, and if you can get a cleric to red bubble you it is crazy damage, but I do AoE with my axes. As always though it is up to the player, and if the player is primarily PvE fist is really the way to imo. (I have not tried the sword or spear BMs to any great length, but really go to the extremes or go home imo...)
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    ShadeKitty - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I admit in PvP axes are the god weapons for BMs, but no matter what they are mp hogs, no questions asked. In PvE yes axes have crazy spike damage, and once again are mp hogs, but if you can hit 1k in one hit and 2.5k in the next, it averages out to about 1.75k damage per hit, fists can hit this easily as well, and alot faster, not to mention at teh cost of alot less mp. I agree that in PvP and AoE axes are superior, but for single targets a well built fist BM can do more damage, and at a far smaller cost. Personally I suggest a hybrid axe/fist (it can be done, I'm doing it on my BM), although this leaves little to no room for vit as you have to have a fairly good balance of str and dex (I do not suggest this pre-60 or even pre-70 as your spirit won't stretch that far) I like my fists/claws because of teh weapon abilites and speed of attack, and if you can get a cleric to red bubble you it is crazy damage, but I do AoE with my axes. As always though it is up to the player, and if the player is primarily PvE fist is really the way to imo. (I have not tried the sword or spear BMs to any great length, but really go to the extremes or go home imo...)

    Yeah, you're right about the PvE part. I forgot to mention that my thread was aimed at the "PvP" misconceptions. :D
  • Methuseleh - Lost City
    Methuseleh - Lost City Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    how do u claim axes are the best in pvp when their dex is so low all u will see is MISS MISS MISS MISS against any high dexterity player. yeah maybe with misty forest ring u will do much better but most people dont have that. im a polearm user and im not saying axes arent good, i agree that they are the best in TW but im just sick of hearing Axe BM are so OP im an Axe user, Axes r best. honestly every axe BM of my lvl that ive fought i have beaten. maybe it will change at higher lvls but i doubt it, unless of course they have misty forest ring. even then they have much higher chances of missing than other classes
  • Javon - Lost City
    Javon - Lost City Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    axe bms dont miss alot unless u choose to have low dex , my axe bm has over 100 dex and i hardly miss, but i see what your are saying tho. i plan on learning some spear skills after 80. i kinda wish i had started with spears instead of choosing swords then switchin to axes but i still like axes alot
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    If you're an axer user and you have a brain, you'd go DEX build. And misty forest rings are more common than you think. Accuracy is not an issue at all and Axe warriors have no problem hitting me. Most archers use physical defense/elemental ornaments rather than ethereal(dodge) so seriously, missing is a nonexistent issue
  • Methuseleh - Lost City
    Methuseleh - Lost City Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »
    If you're an axer user and you have a brain, you'd go DEX build. And misty forest rings are more common than you think. Accuracy is not an issue at all and Axe warriors have no problem hitting me. Most archers use physical defense/elemental ornaments rather than ethereal(dodge) so seriously, missing is a nonexistent issue

    well i havent really seen end game yet so i wouldnt know. i can see how an axe bm with the best equipment and base vitality could kick ****, i jus think the little extra dex that polearm users get (about 50) could make the difference in a fight between an axe BM and polearm BM that are both equally equipped. i guess its a tough call for me. of course most people will say axes, but im not so sure....
  • MistresShade - Sanctuary
    MistresShade - Sanctuary Posts: 94 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Methuseleh - Lost City wrote: »
    well i havent really seen end game yet so i wouldnt know. i can see how an axe bm with the best equipment and base vitality could kick ****, i jus think the little extra dex that polearm users get (about 50) could make the difference in a fight between an axe BM and polearm BM that are both equally equipped. i guess its a tough call for me. of course most people will say axes, but im not so sure....

    One of my friends is a Spear BM as well, and I will never say an Axe BM could beat him, but then again he has something alot of people don't: a brain.
    I am the biggest hypocrit you will ever see or hear, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

    Greed destroys even the tightest of bonds
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    MistresShade - Sanctuary wrote: »
    One of my friends is a Spear BM as well, and I will never say an Axe BM could beat him, but then again he has something alot of people don't: a brain.
    \

    When you say beat, please clarify. Duels isn't worth anything to me. And when an axe warrior and spear warrior fights, the axe warrior has a higher chance of winning because of the berserk axes. A brain can only do so much, sadly, it can't break coding imbalances.
  • Divine_Demon - Heavens Tear
    Divine_Demon - Heavens Tear Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    ohh i want to be a bms soon once my archer reaches lvl 60 and i dont know what build or kind of bm i want to go double axes becasue tt axes are most common and they look awsome!!!!!!!!!! what build should i use
    "When life gives you arrows give them back ", Divine_Demon b:sin
  • Eluiveitie - Lost City
    Eluiveitie - Lost City Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I think spear is better in world pvp becous of there range axes are king in TW
  • Siphoncloud - Lost City
    Siphoncloud - Lost City Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    People time and time again think that this game is balanced. Sadly, it isn't. I love it when people say that sword/spear users do the most damage to a single target when in fact, that is not true. Axe skill damage trumps all other warrior trees. (In general). AoE damage is not split up among the enemies so the damage numbers that you see on the skill are APPLIED TO ALL ENEMIES THAT ARE HIT. Thus, axe warriors will do as much damage to a single target as to a group of enemies. This being said, there is no reason to play any other skill tree and away with the "labels" for different weapons.

    Also, PvP for melee classes is mainly skill/spike damage. Fast attack speed with low weapon attack damage isn't very effective because of one thing: hp hiero. All opponents have to do is to move back a bit and wait for hiero to retick. Because of this, it is harder for players that have low base physical attack to win in pvp. Now, you'll say that you have 2 stuns, well guess what, so do the other warrior weapon trees and axe warriors even have one more. This basically negates the purpose of being a fist warrior in PvP. Now on to blade warriors. Sadly, they would be much better if they were given a much better option of HH weapons. But the main HH weapons for blade warriors are single-blades which do not excel at pvp. By the time you are at the level to equip a decent dual blade, the Axe tree will have come out with a better one already. And Finally, the spear warriors. Yes, you have the advantage of having better range, but you still cannot outdamage an axe warrior. Spears are mainly secondary weapons, used when players are running to get those last hits in before hiero reticks. Other than that, I see no other advantage that makes them a better pvp weapon than others.

    Very well said, the idea of a polearm blademaster is very tempting due to the range you get, but in all honestly axe blademasters will level alot more quickly and will be more successful overall. Lol, there is a reason you see so many of them around, it's because the axe build is the best.

    I am not trying to put down the other weapon tree users, if you want to use swords or spears, go for it. You can be successful as well, it would just be harder. I just believe the benefits of spike and AoE of the axe skill tree severely outweighs all the other weapon paths.
    "It took me several months to get to lvl 20 (yes i know..lol)"- Nyxeris - Sanctuary
  • Seablue - Sanctuary
    Seablue - Sanctuary Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »
    Now on to blade warriors. Sadly, they would be much better if they were given a much better option of HH weapons. But the main HH weapons for blade warriors are single-blades which do not excel at pvp. By the time you are at the level to equip a decent dual blade, the Axe tree will have come out with a better one already.

    Yea the TT weapons don't favor bladers spam skills but at least we have this

    It's a dual blade and got gloom. Of course it's not as good as berserker and it's a mold drop from a world boss but it's something to look foward to at least.
  • Sir_walter - Heavens Tear
    Sir_walter - Heavens Tear Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    I agree about axe's being a better choice, even though I'm primarily a sword user. I added AOE axe skills and using TT60 axes with most axe skills still very low level they out damage my TT70 sword skill at high level. Us sword users got crappy weapon choices.
  • Methuseleh - Lost City
    Methuseleh - Lost City Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Siphoncloud - Lost City wrote: »
    Very well said, the idea of a polearm blademaster is very tempting due to the range you get, but in all honestly axe blademasters will level alot more quickly and will be more successful overall. Lol, there is a reason you see so many of them around, it's because the axe build is the best.

    I am not trying to put down the other weapon tree users, if you want to use swords or spears, go for it. You can be successful as well, it would just be harder. I just believe the benefits of spike and AoE of the axe skill tree severely outweighs all the other weapon paths.

    depends what kinda benefits ur talkin about. yeah ok axe users have all that u said but i still feel polearm users with their dmg and extra dex are better pvp in a one on one fight so id rather lvl slower but be a stronger opponent in the end. yeah i can see u sayin axes over sword or fists but that becuz the dmg is much lower. polearms have the same strength requirements as the other lower paths but has higher dmg and will get more dex over all. not to mention the range attack. spear bms own period, end of story. axe bms are just notorious and their presence is felt more on the battlefield cuz of the aoe and extra stun but polearms own in a one on one period. our stuns r just as effective
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Methuseleh - Lost City wrote: »
    depends what kinda benefits ur talkin about. yeah ok axe users have all that u said but i still feel polearm users with their dmg and extra dex are better pvp in a one on one fight so id rather lvl slower but be a stronger opponent in the end. yeah i can see u sayin axes over sword or fists but that becuz the dmg is much lower. polearms have the same strength requirements as the other lower paths but has higher dmg and will get more dex over all. not to mention the range attack. spear bms own period, end of story. axe bms are just notorious and their presence is felt more on the battlefield cuz of the aoe and extra stun but polearms own in a one on one period. our stuns r just as effective

    1. spear does not outdamage axe.
    2. a dex build axer user will not be too far behind a dex build for a spearman
    3. Having covered dex, misty ring easily covers the difference
    4.spear does not outdamage axe.
    5. spear does not outdamage axe.
    6. you get the point.


    And, like I said, the label that spear does better "1 on 1" doesn't mean anything. Axe user will do as much damage in aoe as to a single target. And with that being said, Axe users can deal more skill damage. Besides, that one extra stun is seriously what makes all the difference.
  • Nevlik - Heavens Tear
    Nevlik - Heavens Tear Posts: 265 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    So why am I able to beat my friend, a lvl 73 axe user, when I'm a lvl 71 spear? And I can almost beat my lvl 78 friend who has the calamity axes. Btw spears don't lvl that slowly. A spear can lvl just as fast as an axe with aoe grinding (how fast you lvl is generally cash dependant)
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    you're making it too easy for me. First off you're on a pve server, so that means you beat him in a DUEL. A duel isn't PvP. Secondly, you didn't state if the lvl 78 axe warrior had the misty ring or not. Ok, even if he didn't have misty ring, you didn't clarify about gear. There are many holes in your post right there, and the biggest is the fact that you may have beat him in a duel. Lastly, as long as the axe warrior doesn't miss you with his 1 spark stun, the axe warrior is going to win in the duel. end of story.
  • Granrey - Sanctuary
    Granrey - Sanctuary Posts: 2,050 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »
    \

    When you say beat, please clarify. Duels isn't worth anything to me. And when an axe warrior and spear warrior fights, the axe warrior has a higher chance of winning because of the berserk axes. A brain can only do so much, sadly, it can't break coding imbalances.

    Why duels are not worth anything to you?
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Nevlik - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    So why am I able to beat my friend, a lvl 73 axe user, when I'm a lvl 71 spear? And I can almost beat my lvl 78 friend who has the calamity axes. Btw spears don't lvl that slowly. A spear can lvl just as fast as an axe with aoe grinding (how fast you lvl is generally cash dependant)
    Granrey - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why duels are not worth anything to you?

    Because I'm on a pvp server? In duels, hieros do not tick nor do you usually use pots. In real pvp, it's about beating past the hp hiero.
  • Nevlik - Heavens Tear
    Nevlik - Heavens Tear Posts: 265 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Yes neither of them had a misty forest ring. I'm sorry neither of them can afford molds worth over 8 million. I'm pretty sure that if I had 8 million I could get comparable equipment (or just refine the **** out of my weapon) and beat them whether or not they had both the misty forest ring and calamity axes of blood.

    Also how does the 1 spark stun make the fight an auto win? It is a good skill, but the obvious weakness is that it uses a spark. That in itself will usually prevent follow up with heaven's flame, and bms can easily break each others stun locks if you know what you are doing (either through items or using will of bodhistva).

    Also, one of your assumptions is that every bm can acquire a calamity axes of blood. Those are worth a ton of cash and not many are lucky enough to get them on their fb 69s.

    Btw we do PvP on Heaven's Tear. Ask Gol D. Roger, he was red named for 14 hours. Course he's impossible to whisper, you have to open personal chat.
  • Asgenar - Lost City
    Asgenar - Lost City Posts: 127 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Nevlik - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Yes neither of them had a misty forest ring. I'm sorry neither of them can afford molds worth over 8 million. I'm pretty sure that if I had 8 million I could get comparable equipment (or just refine the **** out of my weapon) and beat them whether or not they had both the misty forest ring and calamity axes of blood.

    Also how does the 1 spark stun make the fight an auto win? It is a good skill, but the obvious weakness is that it uses a spark. That in itself will usually prevent follow up with heaven's flame, and bms can easily break each others stun locks if you know what you are doing (either through items or using will of bodhistva).

    Also, one of your assumptions is that every bm can acquire a calamity axes of blood. Those are worth a ton of cash and not many are lucky enough to get them on their fb 69s.

    Btw we do PvP on Heaven's Tear. Ask Gol D. Roger, he was red named for 14 hours. Course he's impossible to whisper, you have to open personal chat.

    Balance in a game is about max potential. The potential that an axe warrior is capable of reaching is far greater than any other warrior build. And sorry to say, calamity axes are very easy to get. Just about every lvl 70+ warrior that is axe build has one. The ratio is nearly 8:2, calamity axe: hh axe. And I can guarantee you that the PvP experience on Heaven's Tear will never be as extensive and long enough for you to gather enough information to even be close to those on the PvP server. And finally, you didn't address the part whether I was right or wrong about you beating your friend in real pvp or a duel.

    Edit: addressing the part about the 1 spark stun move. Like I said, if it is able to be pulled off, the chance of being beaten down to a stunlock loss in a duel is greater. I did not say that move is what makes an axe warrior win in PvP, but it is what makes them win in many duels. It is true that warriors have the will of budhawhatever to resist stun, but that also takes one spark, so you have to keep that in mind as well.
  • complexx
    complexx Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    off topic, but lol @ 14 hours red.
    b:cute

    Sinnerz Lost City PvP.
  • _howler_ - Lost City
    _howler_ - Lost City Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited February 2009
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    Asgenar - Lost City wrote: »
    Balance in a game is about max potential. The potential that an axe warrior is capable of reaching is far greater than any other warrior build. And sorry to say, calamity axes are very easy to get. Just about every lvl 70+ warrior that is axe build has one. The ratio is nearly 8:2, calamity axe: hh axe. And I can guarantee you that the PvP experience on Heaven's Tear will never be as extensive and long enough for you to gather enough information to even be close to those on the PvP server. And finally, you didn't address the part whether I was right or wrong about you beating your friend in real pvp or a duel.


    is it easy ? hell tell me an easy way to get them then , my lv 7x bm needs some b:laugh

    also 14= barley red, my lv 30 cleric alt has at least 50 hours b:laugh

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